Buffalo Live and Local

[TheBigA]

If I pay 98.9 The River $3 a spot, why should I pay 97.5 The Hound $12 a spot?

This brings up a point I read a lot: Radio should tell advertisers to pay more and have their spots run fewer times.

There were several columns written for RadioInk with this advice from established consultants. I asked all of them: Why would any advertiser do that? They're buying impressions! They want their spot to air MORE times, not less. The reason why there are so many spots is because the advertisers want it that way. I was working on a project with a client, and the conversation was how could I give them MORE spots. We had a limit to 12 minutes an hour. That wasn't enough for them.

On the subject of rate, people wonder how The Wolf stays in business in a market with WYRK. The answer is because The Wolf can sell its spots for less. Advertisers who want to reach the country audience can do so for less on The Wolf. This also can drive down the spot price at WYRK. An advertiser will tell WYRK that he's taking his money to Audacy because it's cheaper, and the salesman cuts the price to keep the client. That means they have to make up for the loss somewhere else. More spots.

 

[SomeRadioGuy]

I'm sure it was. Either way, advertisers want their dollar to have the best chance at providing a return. Doesn't matter the type of ad, it's called 'conversion'. What's the ratio of return for every ad dollar spent? You have a better chance of conversion when there are more people hearing your ad, not when the ad travels a further distance. You need to stop thinking like a DXer.

Most advertisers that remain in business want the least cost and the highest conversion. That's nothing new or revolutionary.

I can tell you 98.9 the river did ok for what they were.

We had many advertisers that were with us for a long time, we got results.. Many of our sales people, in fact almost all.. had been in the market for 20-30, even 40 years.,..... and for a fact, some advertisers looke at, nothing else.. but the cost.. and that was it

Part of the problem is radio advertising isnt a tangible product.. you dont have something you can hold onto like a piece of product or sonmething.

I worked it, i lived it, i saw it.. i know what trouble small market stations face

 

[SirRoxalot]

This. And increasingly those same advertisers are expecting the cost and volume of their ads to move more in line with digital advertising. That means broadcasters are expected to drop their rates and increase the number of impressions to listeners/viewers.

This is precisely the reason why shorter ads should be able to compete with digital advertising. There is no digital advertisement on the planet that any viewer will sit through for 60 seconds short of the trailer for the latest blockbuster movie, and they'll only sit through that once. How long does a digital "impression" last? Anywhere from 0-10 seconds, the latter if someone is interested enough to click on it and link to the website. A 20 second audio ad should be enough to get a digestible chunk of a message to a listener and drive them to seek out more information online if they're interested. Ideally, they'll go to the radio station website were there will be links to ALL of their advertisers on a separate "Heard it on the radio" page. BTW, that can be another source of income or bonus value for advertisers and drive more listeners to your website. That can also be where most of the disclaimers are along with the link to the product or advertiser.

 

[Kelly A]

I can tell you 98.9 the river did ok for what they were.

Kind of like KSKO? Does okay for what it is?

We had many advertisers that were with us for a long time, we got results.. Many of our sales people, in fact almost all.. had been in the market for 20-30, even 40 years.,..... and for a fact, some advertisers looke at, nothing else.. but the cost.. and that was it

Things have changed over the years. Sales folks doing the same thing as 20-40 years ago simply don't apply today.

Part of the problem is radio advertising isnt a tangible product.. you dont have something you can hold onto like a piece of product or sonmething.

Advertising is supposed to provide a return. That fact has never changed.

I worked it, i lived it, i saw it.. i know what trouble small market stations face

Really, you sold advertising? Based on what you've said so far, how did that work?

 

[Kelly A]

This is precisely the reason why shorter ads should be able to compete with digital advertising. There is no digital advertisement on the planet that any viewer will sit through for 60 seconds short of the trailer for the latest blockbuster movie, and they'll only sit through that once.

I've never known of online ads that run :60. If anything, digital ads set the benchmark for what traditional media has been forced into. The difference is; some business or agency will buy a crapload of social media ads on their credit card for pennies on the dollar as compared with radio or TV.

How long does a digital "impression" last? Anywhere from 0-10 seconds, the latter if someone is interested enough to click on it and link to the website. A 20 second audio ad should be enough to get a digestible chunk of a message to a listener and drive them to seek out more information online if they're interested.

A big limitation is radio or TV can't have a link attached. Consumer habits dictate that you have the length of ad to move them to your product. With the exception of advertising Taylor Swift's tour is coming to town, ten minutes or less after the radio ad runs, most consumers have forgotten the ad and moved on.

Ideally, they'll go to the radio station website were there will be links to ALL of their advertisers on a separate "Heard it on the radio" page.

That was tried back in the early days of radio websites with banner ads. Nobody driving down the street hearing an ad is going to remember, let alone go to some radio website to locate a particular advertiser.

BTW, that can be another source of income or bonus value for advertisers and drive more listeners to your website.

As I mentioned; in those early days of radio websites, 99% of the banner ads were freebie bonus ads for clients willing to sign a contract for paid radio ads. Problem was; that once you give things away, it's always harder to charge for them in the future.

That can also be where most of the disclaimers are along with the link to the product or advertiser.

FCC requires any disclaimers or side effects need to be in the spot.

 

[TheBigA]

A 20 second audio ad should be enough to get a digestible chunk of a message to a listener and drive them to seek out more information online if they're interested.

I've had ads where the legal disclaimer was 20 seconds. That disclaimer is required by law. The debate was whether to put the disclaimer at the front of the ad or the end. Some advertisers have opted to start their ad with the disclaimer. I told them it was a turn-off, but their view was it distracted from the call to action at the end of the spot. These are the kinds of conversations we have with advertisers.

I just checked, and the only :60s we have in current inventory are for drug companies like Pfizer.

BTW, that can be another source of income or bonus value for advertisers and drive more listeners to your website.

I used to think that when I started selling digital ads. That is absolutely NOT what an advertiser wants to do. The very last thing an advertiser wants to do is make someone else money. The only website they want listeners to hear about is their website, NOT the station website. I did a co-op deal with a TV station, and suggested their advertisers might also buy ads on our radio station. The TV guy smiled and said if there was any money left over for radio, he was not doing his job.

 

[exdjted]

This is precisely the reason why shorter ads should be able to compete with digital advertising. There is no digital advertisement on the planet that any viewer will sit through for 60 seconds short of the trailer for the latest blockbuster movie, and they'll only sit through that once. How long does a digital "impression" last? Anywhere from 0-10 seconds, the latter if someone is interested enough to click on it and link to the website. A 20 second audio ad should be enough to get a digestible chunk of a message to a listener and drive them to seek out more information online if they're interested. Ideally, they'll go to the radio station website were there will be links to ALL of their advertisers on a separate "Heard it on the radio" page. BTW, that can be another source of income or bonus value for advertisers and drive more listeners to your website. That can also be where most of the disclaimers are along with the link to the product or advertiser.

Studies have shown that people remember 10% of what they hear, versus 80% of what they see. Once again, you're comparing apples to oranges. Let me ask you again. Have you ever worked in Radio? Have you ever talked to an advertiser? Or is all of this based on your opinion as a listener? I really want to know so I can see where you're coming at this issue from.

 

[SomeRadioGuy]

Kind of like KSKO? Does okay for what it is?

Things have changed over the years. Sales folks doing the same thing as 20-40 years ago simply don't apply today.

Advertising is supposed to provide a return. That fact has never changed.

Really, you sold advertising? Based on what you've said so far, how did that work?

Kelly, my job is to intimately know and understand the stations and markets i work in, thats one of the keys to my success.

What I describe and how i describe is as accurate and first hand knowledge vs your estimation and expert opining form the outside.

 

[TheBigA]

Have you ever worked in Radio? Have you ever talked to an advertiser? Or is all of this based on your opinion as a listener?

Anyone who has ever worked in radio knows that the lifeblood of the station is the advertising. As I often say, it's the only source of revenue. The only way to get ahead in radio is to get involved in sales. Programing people are a dime a dozen, but successful salespeople are hard to find.

The way to tell the relative health of a radio station is to listen to the ads. What kind of ads do you hear? If the majority are :60 host reads with 1-800 numbers, you know the station is in trouble. If you hear lots of quality produced ads by local businesses, then the station is doing well. National spots usually come from a network or syndicator and are there in exchange for a service such as news or weather. Some non-broadcast services, such as Mediabase or Selector or Mr. Master get on air spots in exchange for their services. Corporate may also place some of their national spots on their stations to pay for back-office operations.

A lot of radio fans get distracted by company stock price or other corporate things, and none of those things have anything to do with the health of a radio station. Lots of big radio companies have gone bankrupt, and the radio stations continue to operate unaffected.

 

[exdjted]

Anyone who has ever worked in radio knows that the lifeblood of the station is the advertising. As I often say, it's the only source of revenue. The only way to get ahead in radio is to get involved in sales. Programing people are a dime a dozen, but successful salespeople are hard to find.

That's exactly what I've been trying to point out. The lack of good salespeople is a huge contributing factor to the current state of Radio. Most listeners seem to think that advertisers seek us out, and that we're turning business away, which couldn't be further from the truth. In a smaller market especially, having great salespeople makes it easier to justify higher prices and a limit on spot load. Less salespeople means we have less revenue, and that inevitably leads to having to increase the number of spots, as well as cutting on-air talent or front-office staff, and foregoing necessary upgrades. I'd love to have someone live on-air from 6am to midnight, but that costs money, and if the revenue isn't there to justify it, you have to compromise somewhere.

 

[SomeRadioGuy]

That's exactly what I've been trying to point out. The lack of good salespeople is a huge contributing factor to the current state of Radio. Most listeners seem to think that advertisers seek us out, and that we're turning business away, which couldn't be further from the truth. In a smaller market especially, having great salespeople makes it easier to justify higher prices and a limit on spot load. Less salespeople means we have less revenue, and that inevitably leads to having to increase the number of spots, as well as cutting on-air talent or front-office staff, and foregoing necessary upgrades. I'd love to have someone live on-air from 6am to midnight, but that costs money, and if the revenue isn't there to justify it, you have to compromise somewhere.

Sales people are hard to find because people want gaurenteed $$ instead of just commission.. and understandably so, some radio stations have been burned bad by sales people who get paid and dont produce results.

I know some stations whos sales people are salaried with a small percentage of sales and some who are all commission.

and ive seen both do well when you have the right people.

 

[Kelly A]

Kelly, my job is to intimately know and understand the stations and markets i work in, thats one of the keys to my success.

Dude, no offense, but you live and work in Moose Balls, AK. The potential pop count is admittedly 1200 persons, with maybe one-tenth listening simultaneously. I'm glad you have good self-esteem, but come on.

What I describe and how i describe is as accurate and first hand knowledge vs your estimation and expert opining form the outside.

You didn't answer the question. Have you actually sold advertising in the past five years?

 

[b-turner]

I tell people the salesperson they want for their station is already at another station and doing well. You can't afford them. Any person you get with a 'commission on collections' without salary or expense reimbursement and no active account list handed to them is exactly what you paid for, nothing. I ask people offering it if they'd seriously take the job. What person in their right mind would take a deal like that?

Last guy I knew that hired somebody with no existing account list, no salary and no expense account learned the salesperson was selling pot on the side and wound up getting beat up pretty good because he was seeing a married woman and the husband found him. Oh, that husband was a major advertiser. The station manager figured it might be better to get a better salesperson. Worse yet was the guy that offered 50% commission on collections. That salesperson went out and leased a car, worked out several trades with restaurants and bars and a couple of deals with stores for what he wanted. He offered them commercials on the station but he forgot to write those spots or even tell the station. It wasn't long after some of those businesses started asking the station when their spots were playing only to be told they weren't. That station operator wasn't too happy. To avoid wasted time, money and court, he ended up honoring all those deals but couldn't get his just revenge because the sales guy was worth nothing.

On commercials and length of stop sets: my owner puts it this way: running lengthy stop sets is not good programming. Running more than two stop sets an hour is not good programming. You must pick one and live with it.

 

[tbolt909]

Dude, no offense, but you live and work in Moose Balls, AK. The potential pop count is admittedly 1200 persons, with maybe one-tenth listening simultaneously. I'm glad you have good self-esteem, but come on.

Is Moose Balls anywhere near Elk Dung...?

 

[SomeRadioGuy]

Dude, no offense, but you live and work in Moose Balls, AK. The potential pop count is admittedly 1200 persons, with maybe one-tenth listening simultaneously. I'm glad you have good self-esteem, but come on.

You didn't answer the question. Have you actually sold advertising in the past five years?

I have lived and worked in bigger places than this and thats what i was speaking of.

and Yes i have done some sales in the last 5 years

 

[TheBigA]

The lack of good salespeople is a huge contributing factor to the current state of Radio.

It depends on what you view as "the current state of radio." At one time, a company could offer a top salesperson a bonus of company stock. Not any more. That's the downside of the radio stock situation. There aren't a lot of tools available for employers to attract the best and the brightest. Meanwhile, if you work for one of the technology companies, it's very common to get bonused in stock. And the tech companies are in the audio and curated radio businesses. They also need top salespeople. Guess who gets the best people.

 

[davideduardo]

15 second spots work on "TV" or streaming video because it's a visual and audio medium. 15 seconds, just audio, in most cases is just not enough time to get a sponsor's message across, unless the 15s spots are part of a overall campaign which includes longer spots. JMO.

In much of the world and in all the rest of our Hemisphere, 15's and 30's are the norm, with 60's seldom being sold... whether it is Puerto Rico, USA, or Argentina or Mexico. In many cases, 10's are sold as much as 15's, too.

In the 50's through the 80's, there was a radio station in Mexico that only sold 5 second spots. They had a waiting list of the nation's biggest accounts.

 

[TheBigA]

We have to be clear that advertisers buy TIME, not units. So if the length of the spot is shorter, the cost of that spot is proportionally less. So all you do is add more units to the cluster in order to meet the cost. You can't sell a :10 or a :20 for the price of a :60 and expect the client to just roll over and pay. As I said earlier, since advertisers want impressions, we will usually sell them more short spots in order to meet their goal, so you're just adding more clutter to the air signal.

 

[davideduardo]

It depends on what you view as "the current state of radio." At one time, a company could offer a top salesperson a bonus of company stock. Not any more.

Where did sellers get stock grants? I know of management that got stock incentives, but not grants... and that is in all my experience with companies ranging from EZ Communications to Metroplex to Metromedia to Entercom to HBC to Univision to Emmis I never heard or saws sellers get stock grants or options. And only the top management got stock options at a fixed price, excercisable after a multi-year period of employment.

 

[TheBigA]

from EZ Communications to Metroplex to Metromedia to Entercom to HBC to Univision to Emmis

Were you there when they did their IPO?

Also a lot of companies had a company match of stock as part of their 401K. Mine did. Amazon and Apple offer that now.