Lotus

[Kelly A]

I think you do what you have to do.

Even if it's crap by comparison with competition? Sounds like bean-counter thinking, not programming-guy thinking. Seems to me that bean-counter thinking is what's gotten Lotus into this situation in the first place.

We all see big corporate broadcasters in radio & TV doing things they would not have done 20 years ago.

Sure, and I still work for one of those big corporate broadcasters, and there are some things you can't skimp on to become or remain relevant. You automate and come up with workflows that reduce the amount of humans involved, but ultimately there's a hard floor to that thinking without crapifying the content to the point where nobody cares, let alone trusts the content on your site, or news radio station.

Some are getting sued, and some aren't. Some are doing "responsible journalism," and some aren't.

To that point, maybe Lotus should change the moniker of KNWS to 'QANON Radio?' That'll get all sorts of unsavory and mental patients providing lots of content.

 

[TheBigA]

Even if it's crap by comparison with competition?

Why do you keep asking ME these questions? These are Lotus decisions, not mine.

Take a look at Audacy. They own some of the biggest news stations in the country. And they're losing money, on the brink of bankruptcy. Is that where Lotus wants to be?

 

[Kelly A]

Why do you keep asking ME these questions? These are Lotus decisions, not mine.

Because you keep coming back with counter-narratives. Goes to your thinking/opinion about the matter, not Lotus. You're right, Lotus will do what they do. But this is a discussion board about radio. For some reason, I thought that's what we were doing. If you don't feel comfortable defending your 'get on board with the times' by taking the cheap route, that's cool.

 

[TheBigA]

Because you keep coming back with counter-narratives. Goes to your thinking/opinion about the matter, not Lotus.

I'm just offering the options that they're considering, since they've decided not to stick with the status quo. Not judgmental about it. It's they're decision. As I've been saying, the ratings dropped while they had a full staff. So the staffing wasn't helping them in the ratings. Moving forward, we'll see what the change means. I've been tracking other news stations around the country, and loss of staff didn't affect the ratings. So we'll see.

 

[davideduardo]

On the news side, they have to figure out a business model, because the old one is dead. The old news business model worked when there was scarcity. That's not what we have now. So there's a lot of work to do.

No, the old model worked when there was not immediacy and ease of communication. The newspaper originated, in some form, centuries ago and was based on the fact that, as villages grew into cities, many people who needed to know important things were not close to the origin of the event.

This concept of "need to know" goes back to medieval times when town criers announced important things to the citizenry. What is interesting to us radio folks is that no sooner than such practices became common, merchants learned that they were a good ad medium!

The newspaper was an improvement since people could get more detail, but in earlier times most citizens in the developed world could not read. That is where the development of radio to get information was so marvelous as even the less educated could be informed, and much faster than a newspaper.

And like the town crier, both papers and electronic media were principally supported by advertising except in nations where the government wanted to control "voice". And today, even in the 21st Century, we have 3 nations in our hemisphere where all media is controlled by the government!

My point is that news media is not a business model. Advertising or some form of subscription or government and public subsidies are an afterthought arising to answer the question of "we want to do this but who will pay for it?"

What we have now are more news and information sources than the market can pay for. The business model is the same: either subscriptions, subsidies or advertising.

 

[davideduardo]

Kelly is on point. Lotus is trying a low cost approach on its stations now to see if it might work, nothing wrong with that but hard to do with News on an AM and rimshot FM that really only puts a full signal/ strong PPM encode over 66% of the market. .

Sidebar: if a listener can hear a station, the PPM encoding can be detected. The encoding is embedded in the audio in a constant proportion.

My concern has always been about when you have the PPM clipped to your belt, and then have a sweater and a jacket or coat over it. Or when it's inside a purse or a bag, also under a heavy garment worn in cold climates.

Example: the delivery or service truck driver who has on winter wear yet listens to the radio in the cab of their vehicle: does all that winter listening get detected despite about 2 cm of outer garments?

 

[davideduardo]

On the news side, they have to figure out a business model, because the old one is dead. The old news business model worked when there was scarcity. That's not what we have now. So there's a lot of work to do.

No, the old model worked when there was not immediacy and ease of communication. The newspaper originated, in some form, centuries ago and was based on the fact that, as villages grew into cities, many people who needed to know important things were not close to the origin of the event.

This concept of "need to know" goes back to medieval times when town criers announced important things to the citizenry. What is interesting to us radio folks is that no sooner than such practices became common, merchants learned that they were a good ad medium!

The newspaper was an improvement since people could get more detail, but in earlier times most citizens in the developed world could not read. That is where the development of radio to get information was so marvelous as even the less educated could be informed, and much faster than a newspaper.

And like the town crier, both papers and electronic media were principally supported by advertising except in nations where the government wanted to control "voice". And today, even in the 21st Century, we have 3 nations in our hemisphere where all media is controlled by the government!

My point is that news media is not a business model. Advertising or some form of subscription or government and public subsidies are an afterthought arising to answer the question of "we want to do this but who will pay for it?"

 

[davideduardo]

Why do you keep asking ME these questions? These are Lotus decisions, not mine.

But you and Kelly are, each, a Devil's Advocate for somewhat opposing strategies or techniques. As such, you both, like the "advocate" or "barrister" of old, are representing two ways of looking at this example of both a company and a strategy trying to create in information source in "interesting times".

From my perspective, this is a fascinating thread as it combines information flows with economic realities and reveals the challenge, as a nation, of having an informed populace.

I take this in the context of the current wave of anti-Israeli and antisemitic expressions where it seems that a whole generation does not know a thing about the Holocaust, the Pogroms of Russia (Pogroms in the Russian Empire - Wikipedia) and other examples of religious persecutions.

Take a look at Audacy. They own some of the biggest news stations in the country. And they're losing money, on the brink of bankruptcy. Is that where Lotus wants to be?

Not relevant. Audacy seems to run most of its stations well. Full Stop. Audacy has no effective new media program, and failed to anticipate economic downturns when it financed the CBS deal. Neither of those factors has anything to do with having some fairly well programmed, managed and sold stations.

 

[Kelly A]

Sidebar: if a listener can hear a station, the PPM encoding can be detected. The encoding is embedded in the audio in a constant proportion.

But the chances of someone listening for even a few seconds if the signal is noisy or un-listenable, then the chances of having PPM even hear anything to note is nil. In the case of 97.7, those are a lot of areas in the market.

My concern has always been about when you have the PPM clipped to your belt, and then have a sweater and a jacket or coat over it. Or when it's inside a purse or a bag, also under a heavy garment worn in cold climates.

Valid concern. My bet is they've tried it or have examples. Of course if it's indeed a problem, Nielsen probably wouldn't talk about it this far along in PPM.

 

[Kelly A]

Not relevant. Audacy seems to run most of its stations well. Full Stop. Audacy has no effective new media program, and failed to anticipate economic downturns when it financed the CBS deal. Neither of those factors has anything to do with having some fairly well programmed, managed and sold stations.

And throw in Wall Street's disinterest in anything traditional media.

 

[Kelly A]

From my perspective, this is a fascinating thread as it combines information flows with economic realities and reveals the challenge, as a nation, of having an informed populace.

And so far it hasn't devolved into anything related to Christmas music timing predictions, what's on the PA at Walmart, or music from the 60's. Oh damn, I may have just stepped in it...

 

[boombox4]

That may be, but it's irrelevant. Lotus isn't in the social media business. This is what they're doing, and they're trying to do it without the benefit of being part of a much larger company. Journalism is in "decline" if people allow it to happen. If they accept the low hanging fruit and eat at McDonalds every day. Those who look for more can find it. What KNWN has to figure out is its place in the media marketplace. But if they follow your advice, they might as well shut the place down.

I wasn't giving them advice. I was just stating facts. Journalism -- as many of us once knew it -- is on the decline, whether we like it or not. People have been, and are allowing it to happen. It doesn't mean that it's unavailable for those who look for it. But the trend is obvious. I think what happened at KNWN, with the layoffs, is yet another indicator of that trend. The 3rd or 4th largest newspaper in the US, the LA Times, just laid off 71 people about a month ago. News staff cost money. Traditional media -- even those trad media with an internet presence -- are getting hit by the advertising revenue issue that both you and Kelly A have mentioned.

I have no idea what Lotus should do. With KNWN they have an established news radio brand -- for whatever that may be worth -- and maybe they can make that work. It works in Vancouver BC with CKWX. I'm not sure what CKWX's ratings are, but they have survived since going all news around 20-25 years ago. They are associated with a Canadian news website & network. Maybe that's the way to make it work. Associate with a national operation.

 

[davideduardo]

But the chances of someone listening for even a few seconds if the signal is noisy or un-listenable, then the chances of having PPM even hear anything to note is nil. In the case of 97.7, those are a lot of areas in the market.

To get even a single quarter hour of credit, the PPM must make detections in five discreet minutes of a quarter hour (or in 3 out of 5 consecutive minutes).

In any case, those random and "accidental" quarter hour credits such as your reference do more harm than good as they bring down the TSL average for a station.

Valid concern. My bet is they've tried it or have examples. Of course if it's indeed a problem, Nielsen probably wouldn't talk about it this far along in PPM.

It's been a concern since the first tests in Philly in 2002. Some of us on the "Development Committee" wondered if there was a seasonal difference due to heavier winter attire in that market, but we were essentially told "Arbitron does not control the weather".

 

[boombox4]

Journalisim is dead. Newsroom Generative AI Lead.

That employment ad for AI news monitoring is interesting, but it does not surprise me in the slightest. Who needs expensive stringers and beat reporters when you've got AI? Especially if your revenues are dropping and subscriptions aren't exactly gold plating your ATM?

I'm reading a novel written in 1980, which reflects a terrorist attack on NYC. There is a lot of late 70's flavor to the novel, as it was well researched. The authors were excellent -- they make it seem as if you're right there, on the docks and streets of New York in 1979 or 1980.. One scene describes the interior of the NY Times.... How big the main room was, which held all the reporters' desks, and how busy it was, and how noisy it was.

I doubt that is the same exact case in the same room today. AI will probably not replace everyone at newspapers, but it will finish off what online classified ads did to newspapering in the 1990s.

We're entering a new world.

 

[davideduardo]

And so far it hasn't devolved into anything related to Christmas music timing predictions, what's on the PA at Walmart, or music from the 60's. Oh damn, I may have just stepped in it...

Leave your shoes at the door, along with the discarded treatise on "Definition of Adult Standards and its differences from Oldies and Classic Hits".

 

[davideduardo]

I have no idea what Lotus should do. With KNWN they have an established news radio brand -- for whatever that may be worth -- and maybe they can make that work. It works in Vancouver BC with CKWX. I'm not sure what CKWX's ratings are, but they have survived since going all news around 20-25 years ago. They are associated with a Canadian news website & network. Maybe that's the way to make it work. Associate with a national operation.

When NBC tried to do an all news network in the mid-70's, they found that unless a station could do lots and lots of local news, nobody listened. All news is of interest predominantly if it has world and national headlines (unless there is a huge breaking event) and loads of local stories.

 

[Kelly A]

That employment ad for AI news monitoring is interesting, but it does not surprise me in the slightest. Who needs expensive stringers and beat reporters when you've got AI?

Only if you want to risk being sued or blacklisted because the LLM started 'hallucinating' :What are AI Hallucinations and Why Are They a Problem? TechTarget
If it's discovered that your LLM is creating a bunch of false stories, facts, scenarios, or defaming innocent people, expect someone will find out and social media will quickly tear you to pieces. Your credibility will be zero for the foreseeable future.

 

[boombox4]

Only if you want to risk being sued or blacklisted because the LLM started 'hallucinating' :What are AI Hallucinations and Why Are They a Problem? TechTarget
If it's discovered that your LLM is creating a bunch of false stories, facts, scenarios, or defaming innocent people, expect someone will find out and social media will quickly tear you to pieces. Your credibility will be zero for the foreseeable future.

Hence the NY Times ad seeking human journos who can monitor and guide the AI news gathering and reporting.

 

[Kelly A]

Hence the NY Times ad seeking human journos who can monitor and guide the AI news gathering and reporting.

So the question remains; why do you need to hire humans to 'guide' the AI, when they can just do it themselves?

 

[speer360]

to the subject. Lotus Makes Cuts At Northwest NewsRadio - RadioInsight