Format Changes 2024

[davideduardo]

Who did an "all request format?" In order to "come back," it has to have been somewhere once.

It was done on 1170 KLOK in San Jose and 1480 KWIZ in Santa Ana, both CA. Not particularly successful in ratings or revenue.

 

[TheBigA]

It was done on 1170 KLOK in San Jose and 1480 KWIZ in Santa Ana, both CA. Not particularly successful in ratings or revenue.

Neither of them are in NYC. I didn't think I had to be that specific when posting on the NYC board.

But who did an all request format in NYC? No one? A format can't come back to NYC if it never was here in the first place.

Could 2024 be the year the all request format comes back ? and, play what people are excited to listen too

 

[Jeffrey]

Would Audacy ever sell 94.7 and buy 98.7 for a better signal?

 

[TheBigA]

Would Audacy ever sell 94.7 and buy 98.7 for a better signal?

If they could make an even trade? Sure! But to spend an extra $25-30 million just for a better signal at a time when they're teetering on the brink of bankruptcy might not be very smart.

Cumulus paid $40 million for 94,7 ten years ago. It might be worth $20-25 million now. Assuming someone would buy it.

 

[davideduardo]

Neither of them are in NYC. I didn't think I had to be that specific when posting on the NYC board.

I mentioned them as I think they are the only "permanent" (not a stunt) all request formats ever done on a rated market station... at least that I can remember... in the US.

But who did an all request format in NYC? No one? A format can't come back to NYC if it never was here in the first place.

And that is true. The management perspective on this is why would you let an unknown person take over your radios station, even for three minutes?

 

[SCMcKinney]

For all of the constant talk about WTKS, if it would work anywhere else, wouldn’t it have been or be tried? “Hot talk” and “FM talk” (that sounds so 2000) was a fad in the 90s and early 00s primarily. Then there was Free FM which had issues of its own that have been discussed ad nauseam. Very few of those stations were successful enough to last. For whatever reason, the format has only done well in FL and a few random markets like Rochester.

I would consider stations like WHPT and WTKS to be an anomaly, not an example of what other stations should do.

If not a New Talk type format, I think SOMETHING needs to be tried. On another thread it was suggested that a new format comes along every 10 years, and I think the 10 year wait is now just about up. Broadcast Radio needs to get something that will bring in new listeners from the under 30 demographic, and I don't think music alone can or will do that anymore. Radio also needs to do something to bring advertisers back, and although it is not a direct part of this thread, I think something more than a 30 second spot needs to be a part of the offerings.

I asked on another thread, what is making WTKS a top 10, and KEGL an also ran? I don't recall anymore, but what caused WFNY to fail? Was it that it only appealed to the young male demographic? Although I have only heard bits and pieces, those slices of WTKS frequently include female caller/input. Would a New Talk format be something that you could leave on at the office or in the car with the kids? No divisive politics - just topics that younger people are interested in.

 

[TheBigA]

Broadcast Radio needs to get something that will bring in new listeners from the under 30 demographic, and I don't think music alone can or will do that anymore.

It's a bigger problem than radio. Public taste in music and culture is no longer built around things that attract large audiences. Only a handful of music artists can do that. The rest are playing to their fan bases, not the mass audience. So it's harder to find anything that can attract a consensus. Conservative talk works because its audience has a very narrow area of interest, and everyone agrees with it. Not so with other points of view, or other topics of conversation. So this is more of a sociological discussion, where music doesn't bring people together, but splits people apart. And quite often the negativity is what unites people.

I asked on another thread, what is making WTKS a top 10, and KEGL an also ran?

I explained this earlier: Heritage. WTKS has heritage in the talk format. People know what they do, and they get repeat audience. The heritage KEGL had was as a rock station. The mistake they made was walking away from their rock heritage. They could have added the talk element, but it needed to appeal to the heritage audience, and it didn't. It instead angered and alienated them. That's the difference.

This same thing happened in NYC when WNEW-FM abandoned rock for talk.

 

[SCMcKinney]

Heritage. WTKS has heritage in the talk format.

I am pretty sure that WDBO had been doing talk some time before WTKS became a talker, and that heritage talker is now running behind WTKS in the 6+ numbers. There is a decided difference between what WABC/WOR/WDBO do and what WTKS or a proposed station for NYC would do. It seems to me that a non-shock jock general interest talk station that appeals to the non-political, non-sports types ought to be at least tried, especially if 98.7 is going to be vacated next year. Although it is easy for me to armchair quarterback, Mr. Cats has the money to make a go at that, and I think he has the passion for radio and a desire to be influential that would be contributing factors.

 

[Weiserguy]

I am pretty sure that WDBO had been doing talk some time before WTKS became a talker, and that heritage talker is now running behind WTKS in the 6+ numbers. There is a decided difference between what WABC/WOR/WDBO do and what WTKS or a proposed station for NYC would do. It seems to me that a non-shock jock general interest talk station that appeals to the non-political, non-sports types ought to be at least tried, especially if 98.7 is going to be vacated next year. Although it is easy for me to armchair quarterback, Mr. Cats has the money to make a go at that, and I think he has the passion for radio and a desire to be influential that would be contributing factors.

Stuart, you keep harping on the same point over and over again. You seem fixated on this one Tampa Bay area station, ignoring what others try to tell you, and repeating your point, which in effect is, "Somebody should do something in NYC, because I like this one station that happens to work in this other market, Tampa, 1200 miles and a huge culture clash away. Someone should drop $50 million (not to mention all the startup costs) to try my pet project" Does that summarize it accurately?

First, 6+ ratings are immaterial. They are next to worthless, except for playing fantasy football with a radio market. We all do that occasionally for funsies, to handicap the horserace, so to speak. But nobody who's serious uses them to sell, buy or analyze advertising, or to determine a station's value when it comes time to put that station on the market or decide what it's worth as an investment.

Second, Mr. Catsimaditis didn't just open his checkbook and ask, "What's your number?" He was negotiating with Cumulus, an incredibly poorly run radio company that desperately wanted to divest itself of its NYC holdings and exit the market. He negotiated aggressively to acquire WABC at an aggressive price, considering it's a 50,000 watt clear channel station in market #1 with battleship's worth of heritage and name recognition. You might say he got it for a song. (And that song wasn't "Daaaan Inn-gram!") He also was astute enough to know that, even if the station crashes and burns under his ownership, the land under the Lodi transmitter could be worth most if not all of his acquisition price.

Third, Cats is wealthy enough to subsidize his purchase until it makes it into the black, assuming it ever does. He has other businesses, and he can afford for Red Apple Media to provide a tax loss to offset income from his supermarkets and other ventures. In effect, the government is subsidizing his toy store. If he tries to acquire 98.7, the situation is likely to be very different. He's not likely to get a sweetheart deal from Emmis on a full-power, full-market NYC FM broadcasting from ESB, and his carrying cost will be much higher. And just simulcasting the WABC programming would be a waste of an FM signal, so there will have to be new programming/talent/promotion/studio/engineering costs to boot.

So it's not a slam-dunk for him. The numbers have to work. The concept has to work in the tri-state area. And the marketplace has to want whatever he would be selling. Which likely isn't a clone of WTKS.

 

[davideduardo]

I am pretty sure that WDBO had been doing talk some time before WTKS became a talker, and that heritage talker is now running behind WTKS in the 6+ numbers.

Remember, WTKS is going to be 30 years in-format next year. It is just as much a heritage stations as WDBO... maybe more as WDBO lost a lot by being AM in an area where AM signals are limited by "tropical noise" and poor conductivity.

There is a decided difference between what WABC/WOR/WDBO do and what WTKS or a proposed station for NYC would do.

It's too many years too late to try to create a format for commercial radio that most people under 50 find more convenient to use via podcasts.

It seems to me that a non-shock jock general interest talk station that appeals to the non-political, non-sports types ought to be at least tried, especially if 98.7 is going to be vacated next year. Although it is easy for me to armchair quarterback, Mr. Cats has the money to make a go at that, and I think he has the passion for radio and a desire to be influential that would be contributing factors.

While "Mr Cats" can do whatever he wants with his money, the creation of a "younger talk format" is a chimera of the first order.

 

[SCMcKinney]

Stuart, you keep harping on the same point over and over again. You seem fixated on this one Tampa Bay area station, ignoring what others try to tell you, and repeating your point, which in effect is, "Somebody should do something in NYC, because I like this one station that happens to work in this other market, Tampa, 1200 miles and a huge culture clash away. Someone should drop $50 million (not to mention all the startup costs) to try my pet project" Does that summarize it accurately?

First, 6+ ratings are immaterial. They are next to worthless, except for playing fantasy football with a radio market. We all do that occasionally for funsies, to handicap the horserace, so to speak. But nobody who's serious uses them to sell, buy or analyze advertising, or to determine a station's value when it comes time to put that station on the market or decide what it's worth as an investment.

Second, Mr. Catsimaditis didn't just open his checkbook and ask, "What's your number?" He was negotiating with Cumulus, an incredibly poorly run radio company that desperately wanted to divest itself of its NYC holdings and exit the market. He negotiated aggressively to acquire WABC at an aggressive price, considering it's a 50,000 watt clear channel station in market #1 with battleship's worth of heritage and name recognition. You might say he got it for a song. (And that song wasn't "Daaaan Inn-gram!") He also was astute enough to know that, even if the station crashes and burns under his ownership, the land under the Lodi transmitter could be worth most if not all of his acquisition price.

Third, Cats is wealthy enough to subsidize his purchase until it makes it into the black, assuming it ever does. He has other businesses, and he can afford for Red Apple Media to provide a tax loss to offset income from his supermarkets and other ventures. In effect, the government is subsidizing his toy store. If he tries to acquire 98.7, the situation is likely to be very different. He's not likely to get a sweetheart deal from Emmis on a full-power, full-market NYC FM broadcasting from ESB, and his carrying cost will be much higher. And just simulcasting the WABC programming would be a waste of an FM signal, so there will have to be new programming/talent/promotion/studio/engineering costs to boot.

So it's not a slam-dunk for him. The numbers have to work. The concept has to work in the tri-state area. And the marketplace has to want whatever he would be selling. Which likely isn't a clone of W

Someone should drop $50 million (not to mention all the startup costs) to try my pet project" Does that summarize it accurately?

No, that is not what I am (or was) trying to say. I was attempting to suggest that for the upcoming format change in 2024, and barring a change of heart by Good Karma there will be a format change, a departure from the same cycle of existing formats would be a good idea to consider. I merely pointed out a station model that works, and suggested a local owner who has the means and possibly an incentive to do so.

Radio execs will do what they see best. It will be sad to see one of the biggest changes in New York radio since the sale of WPLJ get wasted on a variation of the same old. Sooner or later they're going to have to face the fact the music world has changed, and new / different / risk will be needed.

Not discussed, but I am now thinking could be a possibility - EMF buys 98.7 (and I don't think they'll pay $50 Million) and moves Air 1 there, selling 96.7. There might still be a format change, just on a lesser signal.

 

[SCMcKinney]

the creation of a "younger talk format" is a chimera of the first order.

You have to try something sometime, and a first class FM in market 1 doesn't get offered everyday. Somebody is going to acquire 98.7, and putting on a format that is not a clone of everything out there currently ought to be worth more than a passing thought. Gordon McClendon put something unique on in San Francisco, and reaped the rewards for many years. Podcasts and Real Time Talk are two different things. Unless we're going to give up on the under 30s - no talk, they Podcast, no music, they Spotify - where does that leave broadcast Radio? And if radio is off their routine, when will they start listening?

 

[davideduardo]

You have to try something sometime, and a first class FM in market 1 doesn't get offered everyday. Somebody is going to acquire 98.7, and putting on a format that is not a clone of everything out there currently ought to be worth more than a passing thought.

You are not talking about a modified talk format. You are talking about making under-35-year-olds use radio when they have moved on.

Gordon McClendon put something unique on in San Francisco, and reaped the rewards for many years.

Gordon McLendon gussied up the instrumental format in San Francisco on KABL, but he did not "invent" "good music", or what would later be called "Beautiful Music". He did a lot of creative things, starting with his launch with ads for used battleships and "in combat condition" surplus tanks.

I was lucky enough to catch an hour or two of the launch on a Monday morning from my DX location in Ohio and was really fascinated!

Podcasts and Real Time Talk are two different things. Unless we're going to give up on the under 30s - no talk, they Podcast, no music, they Spotify - where does that leave broadcast Radio? And if radio is off their routine, when will they start listening?

The issue with 18-34's is that they carry their smartphone with them at all times. They don't carry radios, and would not no matter what we newly offer. Portable radios are bigger, less useful.

If they want something, they stream it. Podcasts, music, streams of any kind. Most have no ads or minimal ads. Few listen to their favorite music on a streamed radio station as they can get a better mix with a service that is customizable.

As to talk, the one thing radio does do uniquely, there are are more and more talk options on streams without the ads and available on demand; if you can't finish a podcast now, come back later after you pause it. Can't do that with radio which is real time or no time.

 

[TheBigA]

a departure from the same cycle of existing formats would be a good idea to consider.

It's very likely that whatever appears on 98.7 in fact WILL be a departure for this market. But what I expect it to be is a format that serves the interests of the new owner more than what serves the interests of radio fans.

 

[SCMcKinney]

Can't do that with radio which is real time or no time.

It seems to me "podcasting" is actually modern term for "rolling tape." A modern talk station should be able to offer their live talk show as a podcast after the fact if the listener didn't or couldn't listen to it at the broadcast time - NPR does this routinely with almost all its programming, I think. For radio overall, aside from the sports junkie, the under 30 or (under 40) demographic, has no talk station for them, a format hole that radio could/should address, in my opinion.

 

[TheBigA]

For radio overall, aside from the sports junkie, the under 30 or (under 40) demographic, has no talk station for them, a format hole that radio could/should address, in my opinion.

Assuming that that's what they're looking for. As I've said, that demo isn't restricted to the same concept of format as their parents. They want media that covers all of their interests, including music and talk. Consider the late night "talk" shows. Are they strictly talk in the traditional sense, or do they include music in what they do? That's what younger leaning radio stations do. One of the top radio stations in Seattle is KISW. It lists itself as a rock station. But it's mainly a talk station that also plays rock music, and it does very well in the 18-34 demo. So to say that the under 40 demo has no talk station ignores the fact that they get their talk from stations that also play music.

 

[Rollo-Smokes]

Red Apple could be a possibility for 98.7. Mr. Cats has shown a passion for radio with what he has done to improve WABC with or without the profits to match. He is also a successful businessman, who could possibly see the potential for a new talk station. I have heard he wants political influence, much like Mr. Strauss did with WMCA's talk, and the modern FM with a modern talk approach could be the way he could achieve this.

Someone had posted that WTKS was originally WWNZ-FM, a simulcast of an AM. The same thing could be done here. Use the WABC programming to round out the off hours, but use those sweet daytime dayparts to go after younger listeners. I bet a consultant could give him guidance in how to program the new talk. I also bet that Emmis will want to be shed of the radio station, and no reasonable offer will be refused.

You do realize that WABC exists solely to promote the interests and agenda of its owner, right?

It's not smart radio programming, to say the least. But as long as the rich man funds it out of his own pocket, what does that matter?

 

[TheBigA]

You do realize that WABC exists solely to promote the interests and agenda of its owner, right?

One could say that about all radio stations, although the interests and agendas of iHeart and Audacy are to make money.

But yes, I get your point, and the idea that a 75-year-old white man is going to spend $50 million of his personal fortune to entertain people under 40, especially based on how he has programmed WABC, is a huge stretch. I should also point out that if money was no object, and he wanted to own a great FM property, he could have bought WPLJ at the same time he bought WABC.

 

[Radio-Bored-Op]

might be worth $20-25 million now. Assuming someone would buy it.

Hold my pepsi......

 

[davideduardo]

It seems to me "podcasting" is actually modern term for "rolling tape." A modern talk station should be able to offer their live talk show as a podcast after the fact if the listener didn't or couldn't listen to it at the broadcast time - NPR does this routinely with almost all its programming, I think. For radio overall, aside from the sports junkie, the under 30 or (under 40) demographic, has no talk station for them, a format hole that radio could/should address, in my opinion.

That requires some changes in the radio "system" as talk shows are not neatly set in sets of 15, 20 or 30 minutes. Radio talk is often a flow, with one subject morphing into another and lots of "this moment in time" comments.

Example: an afternoon show is discussing smog that day, and there is a traffic report in the break about a huge tie-up. After the break, the talk host brings that traffic jam into the subject, wondering how much pollution that congestion is adding to the city.

If you try to make a podcast out of that hour, the traffic "sidebar" has become dated and irrelevant. It is topical when live, deadly when recorded.

So making the entire show a podcast is too long. Doing quarter hours requires lots of editing, costing lots of money. The two systems are not compatible.