Denver Colorado Public Radio's CEO on recent CPR layoffs

[Mark Roberts]

The interview with CEO Stewart Vanderwilt aired this morning on the Colorado Matters program. Here's a transcript: Colorado Public Radio’s CEO explains why the company is laying off 15 people | Colorado Public Radio - it seemed slightly awkward, no surprise there, and didn't broach the subject of the KRCC acquisition, which surprised me a little bit. (Edit to clarify: Colorado College still owns KRCC; CPR is operating it.) The interviewer, Ryan Warner, did bring up CPR's purchase of a new headquarters building. Vanderwilt responded that most of the purchase was covered by a donor, but the organization still faces renovation expenses, and expenses that will be incurred in consolidating the organization's two Denver locations.

What caught my attention in particular was this exchange:

Warner: What economic, maybe even social forces, led to the current climate? Help us understand why CPR is in the red, not the black.

Vanderwilt: There's a couple of things. One, we were on a consistent growth path that pretty much stopped in 2023. The dynamics impacting CPR are impacting other media organizations, in some cases, more severely. One of them specifically is sponsorship that comes from national organizations. We saw a 40% drop in the amount of sponsorship that comes to CPR from, like, a nationwide bank or an airline.

Those types of sponsors, mostly placed through an arm of NPR, have really pulled back. There's so much pressure in the corporate world to deliver an instantaneous return. Those sponsor dollars are shifting very much direct-to-audience– so the ad that pops up on your Facebook feed or Instagram, and moving away from more traditional media, such as public radio.

For added context, I would have like to have heard absolute numbers as well as the proportion of decline, but that 40% figure stands out nonetheless. Vanderwilt didn't explicitly state a second factor, but I believe the following is what he was referring to:

Warner: How are ratings? Are people listening to public radio like they used to?

Vanderwilt: They're not. Radio in general is being challenged by a shift to on-demand listening and other sources. CPR's ratings have been at a peak before, probably in about 2020. CPR is the most-listened-to news station in Denver, and that's a really important place to be.

Warner: But the pie is smaller.

Vanderwilt: But the pie is getting somewhat smaller.

Most of the CPR cuts came in its dedicated podcast operation, which will now be merged into the news operation, and its two music stations, KVOD (classical) and KVOQ (Indie 102.3).

 

[TheBigA]

As I said in another thread, what is happening with CPR is also happening at public radio & TV stations across the country. The 40% drop in sponsorship is not far from what was announced by WBUR in Boston. People don't want to pay for the media they consume. Companies are tightening their corporate giving in the years after the pandemic. Diversification can help. That's why they invested in podcasting. But the revenue didn't follow.

There's really nothing these stations can do other than cut costs and lay off staff. CPR isn't a state agency, and Colorado College isn't run by the state. They're all private businesses, and when costs exceed revenue, the only solution is to cut costs.

 

[Mark Roberts]

As I said in another thread, what is happening with CPR is also happening at public radio & TV stations across the country. The 40% drop in sponsorship is not far from what was announced by WBUR in Boston. People don't want to pay for the media they consume. Companies are tightening their corporate giving in the years after the pandemic. Diversification can help. That's why they invested in podcasting. But the revenue didn't follow.

It also appeared that the dedicated podcasting operation turned out to be a distraction. There will still be podcasts produced but they will now be derived directly from content produced in the newsroom, as the transcript makes clear.

The Denverite website didn't come up at all in the discussion. More generally, Vanderwilt was clear that CPR would not be implementing paywalls for its sites.

There's really nothing these stations can do other than cut costs and lay off staff. CPR isn't a state agency, and Colorado College isn't run by the state. They're all private businesses, and when costs exceed revenue, the only solution is to cut costs.

By the way, I clarified the status of KRCC in my original post. Thank you for pointing that out.

 

[TheBigA]

It also appeared that the dedicated podcasting operation turned out to be a distraction.

Apparently that was also the case for WAMU and DCist. So they shut down the publication to focus on radio.

 

[Mark Roberts]

Apparently that was also the case for WAMU and DCist. So they shut down the publication to focus on radio.

CPR was doing quite a bit of in-depth reporting requiring dedicated resources for the podcasts. Yet the podcasts that were repurposing content produced for CPR News (radio) were getting more downloads, if I'm reading that transcript correctly. I'm getting the impression that Colorado Matters, which currently features two half-hour segments, each devoted to one subject, may end up being reformatted in the coming months to feature more, shorter segments that can then be turned into podcasts. This might be a good thing.

 

[Mikey Radio]

It should be noted that many non-profits, including public radio and television, claimed to also be hurt by the Trump tax plan that was implemented during his administration. In short, the standard deduction was elevated to the point where far fewer people can itemize and claim anything on donations to non-profit organizations vs. in years past. While that in theory shouldn't stop people from giving, losing that tax credit did take away the incentive for at least some. Congress tried to fix it for a few years by allowing people to get credit for up to $300 per year in cash donations to non-profits like public radio/TV, but once that expired in I believe 2022, it wasn't renewed.

 

[Mark Roberts]

Based on that interview, the primary revenue stream for public radio appears to be "sponsorship", i.e. underwriting. Listener donations may well be more a means of demonstrating community support than being a primary source of revenue. Then the logical conclusion is that public radio is facing many of the same financial pressures as standard commercial radio.

 

[TheBigA]

Then the logical conclusion is that public radio is facing many of the same financial pressures as standard commercial radio.

That's correct, especially in the area of podcasting, because podcasting doesn't have to be non-commercial. So the advertising that supports the podcasts is being hurt by the same factors involved in commercial radio. We've seen the same layoffs happen at Spotify and Sirius and even NPR in DC for the same reasons. All of these companies have things are supported by advertising.

 

[Mikey Radio]

Based on that interview, the primary revenue stream for public radio appears to be "sponsorship", i.e. underwriting. Listener donations may well be more a means of demonstrating community support than being a primary source of revenue. Then the logical conclusion is that public radio is facing many of the same financial pressures as standard commercial radio.

While you may have a point (I admittedly can't say for sure one way or the other), I can share that my NPR station 1) Used to run an announcement a few times per day for about a week after their on-air fundraising drives were over, basically saying "Listeners have allowed us to meet our financial goals, but if you'd still like to donate, go to XYZ website". Over the past 2 years or so, it's often been "Unfortunately we failed to reach our goals during our most recent pledge drive, but there's still time to help us by donating at XYZ website". 2) They've mentioned on the air that the reason some programming changes were made and some former programs and hosts are no longer part of their schedule is because listener support had decreased and thus, changes had to be made due to budget constraints.

Does anyone reading know - If NPR stations are 501c3 non-profits, would they not be required to file paperwork detailing their sources of income and expenditures, and would that include sponsorship and underwriting? If so, I may look up a few stations' reports just to see how their various sources of funding compare.

 

[TheBigA]

Does anyone reading know - If NPR stations are 501c3 non-profits,

Yes: Colorado Public Radio is a nonprofit 501(c)(3) organization founded in 1970.

They usually post that information at the bottom of their websites, part of the public file.

 

[Mark Roberts]

This morning, I think I got a taste of how CPR may be pivoting: a segment on KCFR's Colorado Matters featuring a punk-rock show that just started on Saturday nights on CPR's Indie 102.3 (KVOQ). That was an interesting little bit of cross-promotion.

 

[Larry]

They usually post that information at the bottom of their websites, part of the public file.

You can look up on Guidestar.org 990s ( federal income tax returns for nonprofits) for most 501(c)3. Note you might not see detail (list of all supporters/sponsors) but you can see General categories of sources of income and expenses. Website is free but you might need to register to access 990s

 

[Mark Roberts]

You can look up on Guidestar.org 990s ( federal income tax returns for nonprofits) for most 501(c)3. Note you might not see detail (list of all supporters/sponsors) but you can see General categories of sources of income and expenses. Website is free but you might need to register to access 990s

They're actually available directly from CPR: Finances | Colorado Public Radio - scroll to almost the bottom of the page.

 

[Gregg.]

I listen to public radio frequently. WNYC in NYC for news and talk. Sometimes co-owned WQXR for classical music. And sometimes "NPR Now" Channel 122 on Sirius XM, which never asks for donations since my subscription funds it.

I am always amazed at how large the staffs are. When times were good and the money was rolling in, the cash had to go somewhere. As a non-profit, it couldn't go to shareholders as in a profit-making corporation. So it went into larger and larger staffs.

Listen to the credits at the end of "On The Media," a weekly show produced by WNYC and syndicated to most NPR news/talk stations. There is a host (it used to be two hosts). There is an executive producer. There are five other producer/writers. There are tech people, too. One of the hosts also got a credit as "and the show was edited by Brooke." Two WNYC executives are also credited. All to produce a weekly show that runs 50 minutes. In the days when it had two hosts, each year between Memorial Day weekend and Labor Day weekend, one or the other host was off. All summer, the hosts worked 50% of the weeks. Plus, on five holiday weeks a year, Christmas, New Year's, Memorial Day, Independence Day and Labor Day, "On The Media" does a repeat show, where it gets a fresh intro, but it runs "a show we did last April."

How can all this be justified? Hey, I'm sure the people work hard. Leads they try to track down don't pan out. Guests cancel at the last minute. The program also had a standard rule, in the days before everyone had a microphone in their homes, that all guests had to get to an NPR station so they could be interviewed on a dedicated line, no phone interviews. That must have taken up a lot of time and coordination.

But I also know about Parkinson's Law, that work expands to fill the time allotted to it. Parkinson should have observed a public radio station to formulate his theory.

So when I hear a public radio station is cutting their staff by 15%, and when I hear they had 110 people on the payroll originally, it means they now have 93 people on the staff! I don't want to hear anyone lost a gig. But I have a hard time feeling pity for a public radio operation in Denver or Sacramento that still has a staff close to 100 people.

 

[TheBigA]

I have a hard time feeling pity for a public radio operation in Denver or Sacramento that still has a staff close to 100 people.

No one is asking for pity.

 

[SomeRadioGuy]

I listen to public radio frequently. WNYC in NYC for news and talk. Sometimes co-owned WQXR for classical music. And sometimes "NPR Now" Channel 122 on Sirius XM, which never asks for donations since my subscription funds it.

I am always amazed at how large the staffs are. When times were good and the money was rolling in, the cash had to go somewhere. As a non-profit, it couldn't go to shareholders as in a profit-making corporation. So it went into larger and larger staffs.

Listen to the credits at the end of "On The Media," a weekly show produced by WNYC and syndicated to most NPR news/talk stations. There is a host (it used to be two hosts). There is an executive producer. There are five other producer/writers. There are tech people, too. One of the hosts also got a credit as "and the show was edited by Brooke." Two WNYC executives are also credited. All to produce a weekly show that runs 50 minutes. In the days when it had two hosts, each year between Memorial Day weekend and Labor Day weekend, one or the other host was off. All summer, the hosts worked 50% of the weeks. Plus, on five holiday weeks a year, Christmas, New Year's, Memorial Day, Independence Day and Labor Day, "On The Media" does a repeat show, where it gets a fresh intro, but it runs "a show we did last April."

How can all this be justified? Hey, I'm sure the people work hard. Leads they try to track down don't pan out. Guests cancel at the last minute. The program also had a standard rule, in the days before everyone had a microphone in their homes, that all guests had to get to an NPR station so they could be interviewed on a dedicated line, no phone interviews. That must have taken up a lot of time and coordination.

But I also know about Parkinson's Law, that work expands to fill the time allotted to it. Parkinson should have observed a public radio station to formulate his theory.

So when I hear a public radio station is cutting their staff by 15%, and when I hear they had 110 people on the payroll originally, it means they now have 93 people on the staff! I don't want to hear anyone lost a gig. But I have a hard time feeling pity for a public radio operation in Denver or Sacramento that still has a staff close to 100 people.

public radio in general, puts alot of time and effort into one story or one show. .spending alot more resources all around. i know public radio reporters who work for days and weeks on one single story.

Most public radio stations have large staffs not all.. lol

 

[Mark Roberts]

How can all this be justified? Hey, I'm sure the people work hard. Leads they try to track down don't pan out. Guests cancel at the last minute. The program also had a standard rule, in the days before everyone had a microphone in their homes, that all guests had to get to an NPR station so they could be interviewed on a dedicated line, no phone interviews. That must have taken up a lot of time and coordination.

But I also know about Parkinson's Law, that work expands to fill the time allotted to it. Parkinson should have observed a public radio station to formulate his theory.

So when I hear a public radio station is cutting their staff by 15%, and when I hear they had 110 people on the payroll originally, it means they now have 93 people on the staff! I don't want to hear anyone lost a gig. But I have a hard time feeling pity for a public radio operation in Denver or Sacramento that still has a staff close to 100 people.

In the case of Colorado Public Radio, the staff is supporting three full-time broadcast services - news, classical, and AAA, plus a website specifically for Denver-area news, filling in some of the gaps in coverage that result from CPR's more-statewide emphasis. As has been mentioned previously, a podcast production unit bore most of the cuts. News was specifically spared. Underwriting and pledge support were down in 2023 from 2022 while expenses were up. There was also a Paycheck Protection Program loan forgiveness of $2 million in 2022 that obviously didn't repeat.

Most of CPR's revenues come from underwriting and donations. The problem with wholesale cuts is that they have an adverse effect on programming that attracts underwriting and donations, which would result in reduced revenue. The challenge is striking the right balance. Emotion doesn't enter into it.

 

[Mark Roberts]

No one is asking for pity.

+1

CPR wasn't asking for pity. They were being transparent about what was happening. It's also likely that they wanted to explain the cuts to people who were listening to some of the affected podcasts. The interview with Vanderwilt was a little awkward (I heard it) but seemed to be authentic.

 

[fybush]

Radio complainers: "There aren't enough jobs anymore for radio people! Why are stations all automated without any live talent?"

Also radio complainers: "That radio station has so many people working there!"