WFME STA

[ajaynejr]

So, it seems all this time Family Radio was supposedly taking "good faith steps to restore normal operation", they were actually in the process of selling the property to Goddard School,

But the West Orange site was never suitable for WFME as a Class A station, even without Goddard School.

I am guessing that a facility there would have to be non-directional, which would mean a maximum power of about 20 KW day, 5 KW night judging from their last dirctional patterns.

Superficially, KDWN 720 (mentioned earlier above) has a similar recent history as WFME, in terms of suffering a second loss of tower site in just a few years. The first loss was the same as WFME's, the land being so valuable for other purposes. And KDWN had 50 KW with a simple night pattern, actually comparable to a class A-formerly-I-B (as is WFME), except without receiving skywave protection.

 

[BobSmith]

Curious--What would be the ballpark timeline and cost if they were able to find a suitable site and then build and restart 1560 WFME as a clear channel 50kWatter?

 

[TheBigA]

Curious--What would be the ballpark timeline and cost if they were able to find a suitable site and then build and restart 1560 WFME as a clear channel 50kWatter?

The FCC has given them until July, and it doesn't sound like there will be another extension.

 

[luperm]

The FCC has given them until July, and it doesn't sound like there will be another extension.

They'll get extensions as long as they can demonstrate tangible forward progress towards a permanent facility. On the other hand, a response like "we are working on it" will probably not be well received.

 

[BobSmith]

Probably should have reworded that...I guess I'm asking, realistically, if they were successful in finding a site and everything was proceeding apace, what is anyone's guess as to what the total cost of such an endeavor would be and how long could it take to go from (possibly) bare ground to all the engineering and paperwork, possibly build 3(?) towers and start transmitting.

 

[TheBigA]

They'll get extensions as long as they can demonstrate tangible forward progress towards a permanent facility. On the other hand, a response like "we are working on it" will probably not be well received.

Here's a quote from the FCC order.

However, in keeping with the above policy, any future STA extension request will carry an increased burden to demonstrate one or
more of the above STA criteria. Accordingly, if Family seeks a further STA extension in lieu of a
modification application to operate at reduced power, it must include a detailed narrative describing all
the steps it has taken to return the Station to licensed operation—including specific sites under
consideration or negotiation—and, if needed, a demonstration that any lack of progress is due to
circumstances outside of Family’s control. We remind Family that timely restoration of permanent
facilities is the responsibility of the licensee and should be undertaken expeditiously.

 

[davideduardo]

Probably should have reworded that...I guess I'm asking, realistically, if they were successful in finding a site and everything was proceeding apace, what is anyone's guess as to what the total cost of such an endeavor would be and how long could it take to go from (possibly) bare ground to all the engineering and paperwork, possibly build 3(?) towers and start transmitting.

The biggest time consuming issue involves the permit process. Once a piece of land suitable for the site is found, then there are multiple permits needed to build. If any permit involves "protected" land, it may even involve hearings.

A move of WQBA in Miami to a new site at the eastern edge of the Everglades on Native American land took several years and something like eleven permits .

Once permits are obtained, construction can go fast unless it is winter time... then there is "proof of performance" testing of the pattern before a CP is licensed.

I rebuilt a directional system that already had all Municipality and Commonwealth permits but needed the removal of a center TV tower and rebuilding of the ground system and that took 5 months with the station totally off the air in a mild climate (Puerto Rico).

 

[davideduardo]

Curious--What would be the ballpark timeline and cost if they were able to find a suitable site and then build and restart 1560 WFME as a clear channel 50kWatter?

I can't even guess on the timeline since city, state and maybe EPA, park or protected land permits are needed. The cost, not including land but including a new transmitter and the same tower layout as before might be in the $500,000 to $1,000,000 range. The wide range contemplates perhaps needing landfill, access road construction and paving, a weather-resistent building, bringing in power lines and water, requirements for tower lighting (or not) and other variables.

If the permit process is difficult, add in lots of legal fees and the required exhibits and "expert" accounts.

 

[fybush]

Especially for construction in the NYC metro, that estimate is low by at least half, probably more.

I was involved with a recent AM tower rebuild in a much smaller market on an existing site. It came to over $100,000 per tower just for the tower construction alone, and that was for towers that were shorter than what a class A 1560 would require.

I believe that there's equipment from Maspeth in storage, including a relatively new transmitter and a phasor that could be rebuilt so you're not starting from scratch.

It's still going to be a multi-million dollar project at a brand new site, not including the cost of land acquisition and the legal morass involved in any kind of new tower construction. Ground systems are super expensive these days, a prefab building big enough for 50 kW AM is still in six figures to buy and install, and on and on.

The bigger issue for now for Family, if it has any real intention at all of putting 1560 back on the air, is that the clock is now ticking for the 365-day deadline to resume operation via STA. If February 2025 comes around and nothing's returned to the air at all, the license goes away on its own.

I don't read anything much into the Albert objection or the FCC response. It's boilerplate. Staff knows very well how hard it is to get a high-power AM back on the air and understands that the Commission can either be patient with multiple STAs or watch these stations start disappearing completely even faster than they already are.

Finally, the reality is that even if you read STA filings carefully, you won't know most of what is happening or not happening behind the scenes on a complicated project like this. There are things I know and can't say about what's been tried so far, and nobody on this thread has even come close to guessing some of the possibilities.

If 1560 survives, you'll see a few rounds of STA extension requests that will basically say "we're working on a new site" and eventually a minor mod app for that new site. If it's not going to survive, the only thing you'll know publicly is that the license is being surrendered.

 

[Gregg.]

Especially for construction in the NYC metro, that estimate is low by at least half, probably more.

I was involved with a recent AM tower rebuild in a much smaller market on an existing site. It came to over $100,000 per tower just for the tower construction alone, and that was for towers that were shorter than what a class A 1560 would require.

I believe that there's equipment from Maspeth in storage, including a relatively new transmitter and a phasor that could be rebuilt so you're not starting from scratch.

It's still going to be a multi-million dollar project at a brand new site, not including the cost of land acquisition and the legal morass involved in any kind of new tower construction. Ground systems are super expensive these days, a prefab building big enough for 50 kW AM is still in six figures to buy and install, and on and on.

The bigger issue for now for Family, if it has any real intention at all of putting 1560 back on the air, is that the clock is now ticking for the 365-day deadline to resume operation via STA. If February 2025 comes around and nothing's returned to the air at all, the license goes away on its own.

I don't read anything much into the Albert objection or the FCC response. It's boilerplate. Staff knows very well how hard it is to get a high-power AM back on the air and understands that the Commission can either be patient with multiple STAs or watch these stations start disappearing completely even faster than they already are.

Finally, the reality is that even if you read STA filings carefully, you won't know most of what is happening or not happening behind the scenes on a complicated project like this. There are things I know and can't say about what's been tried so far, and nobody on this thread has even come close to guessing some of the possibilities.

If 1560 survives, you'll see a few rounds of STA extension requests that will basically say "we're working on a new site" and eventually a minor mod app for that new site. If it's not going to survive, the only thing you'll know publicly is that the license is being surrendered.

I don't think anyone is going to rebuild WFME at 50,000 watts day and night, needing four towers to protect Bakersfield. But could it be put on an existing tower as a non-directional?

High power in the daytime, since it is on a clear channel frequency. Maybe 50,000, maybe 25,000 watts. As much as it can while still not hurting nearby stations. But at night, a big reduction in power so it won't need a directional antenna with multiple towers.

 

[fybush]

Could it be done? Probably.

Is it worth doing? Probably not. You're still in for several hundred thousand dollars in diplexing and engineering costs, plus monthly rent to a site owner, for a signal that will only be usable in winter months from 8 AM until 4 PM, because night power will be unusably low for a ND signal.

 

[PTBoardOp93]

The other thing to keep in mind is that instead of spending $1-2 million to re-site 1560, Family could probably spend a similar amount of money to buy WMCA 570 or WNYM 970 or WLIB 1190.

There's plenty of AM signals with adequate day & night coverage of the five boroughs whose owners would consider a sale if given an offer.

 

[RadioGuy1864]

The other thing to keep in mind is that instead of spending $1-2 million to re-site 1560, Family could probably spend a similar amount of money to buy WMCA 570 or WNYM 970 or WLIB 1190.

There's plenty of AM signals with adequate day & night coverage of the five boroughs whose owners would consider a sale if given an offer.

Makes sense to me.

 

[davideduardo]

The other thing to keep in mind is that instead of spending $1-2 million to re-site 1560, Family could probably spend a similar amount of money to buy WMCA 570 or WNYM 970 or WLIB 1190.

There's plenty of AM signals with adequate day & night coverage of the five boroughs whose owners would consider a sale if given an offer.

The problem is that the programming of that organization seems to be primarily focused on non-ethnic listeners. Manhattan and the boroughs are not primarily where their target listeners are to be found.

 

[Greg Strickland]

I think FCC STA rules and policy are fine. The FCC is doing a good job.
At the staff level, the FCC is about 1,500 people, working to keep the agency operating. I believe the division that regulates radio is about 225 people. Many have been with the agency for a long time, focused on getting the job done.

That is why I am posting. I don't like seeing disrespect for people who are simply doing their jobs.

Regarding AM, I see this as preserving a function ( radio spectrum for diversified distribution of audio, independent and private).
It takes time to relocate a broadcast transmitter. I see no problem protecting licensed coverage in order to permit a station to relocate. In many cases other stations may not be able to, or choose not to use spectrum that was occupied by a cancelled or deleted station.

As far as STA fraud... There are people everywhere who do not respect law, and cheat, in all areas of life. Like the guy who blew through a stop sign yesterday and I slowed down to avoid collision.

 

[Radi0411]

boosters can be a pain in the rumpelstiltskin to maintain

Sure, but that doesn't answer the question, just merely offers an opinion, one I actually cannot dispute. Perhaps it was not cost-effective to have 3 separate tower sites and the technical needs to keep everything in sync...

 

[fybush]

Sure, but that doesn't answer the question, just merely offers an opinion, one I actually cannot dispute. Perhaps it was not cost-effective to have 3 separate tower sites and the technical needs to keep everything in sync...

Paul had one experience with a booster that predated today's improved technology, and any time he sees the word "booster" he's compelled to share that one experience as though it still means anything.

 

[Yabadabado1]

Paul had one experience with a booster that predated today's improved technology, and any time he sees the word "booster" he's compelled to share that one experience as though it still means anything.

I assume something like this:

 

[Rusty Muck]

I believe that there's equipment from Maspeth in storage, including a relatively new transmitter and a phasor that could be rebuilt so you're not starting from scratch.

It's still going to be a multi-million dollar project at a brand new site, not including the cost of land acquisition and the legal morass involved in any kind of new tower construction. Ground systems are super expensive these days, a prefab building big enough for 50 kW AM is still in six figures to buy and install, and on and on.

One positive of having the former Maspeth equipment in storage is that it removes any possible burden if something happens to any of the other AMs Family Radio owns, or if they want to update anything at those facilities.

If 1560 never returns to air, that stuff all still has a purpose.

 

[kevtronics]

No way they're going to build a new transmitter site from scratch. The STA mentioned they're investigation locations in Carlstadt (WADO or WKDM/WWRU), Rutherford (WOR), Hackensack (WNYM/WWRV), Lyndhurst (WINS), and North Bergen (WEPN).