OTA TV commercial volume

[secondchoice]

I wish I could find a TV Engineers section. Please move it if this is the wrong place.

I get the Atlanta TV stations OTA. On several stations the commercials are much louder than the show. IMHO 46 during CBS hours is the worst. Why wouldn't the audio chain "level" things out like radio. Thankfully the mute button works 50 % first push on the remote. BTW the commercials half muted sound about the same as the CBS programming.

 

[Kelly A]

I wish I could find a TV Engineers section. Please move it if this is the wrong place.

I get the Atlanta TV stations OTA. On several stations the commercials are much louder than the show. IMHO 46 during CBS hours is the worst. Why wouldn't the audio chain "level" things out like radio. Thankfully the mute button works 50 % first push on the remote. BTW the commercials half muted sound about the same as the CBS programming.

It depends on what causes the perceived loudness differences. Some commercials are processed and mixed by the advertiser with more mid range frequencies to stand out over programming. I've heard similar complaints from viewers, and after checking the levels as recorded over the air via a 'logger' the levels are at or below the threshold. They're just mixed to stand out. Another thing to check, is make sure your TV audio menu settings aren't set to enhance music or artificial surround effects.

 

[Ex-RadioTV]

Agree with Kelly A above. Check your TV first.

The FCC implemented the CALM (Commercial Advertisement Loudness Mitigation) Act well over 10 years ago. Its purpose was to incorporate into the Commission’s rules and make a mandatory technical standard that television advertisements could not be transmitted at louder volumes than the programming they accompany. Relevant rules are 73.682(e) for broadcasts, and 76.607 for cable providers.

Networks typically police their own audio levels for programming and commercials. But not all of the commercials within “48 Hours” are from the network. The local station inserts some of their own commercials into that and other network programs.

If you find that a particular commercial seems much louder than the surrounding program, make a note of it, and of the time it aired. Then reach out to the station by email. Most stations make recordings of their programming, and that information will help them to review the offending material.

As a last resort, you can file a complaint with the FCC.

 

[secondchoice]

I checked the settings. My settings are correct. When I stream CBS on Paramount which is 46 with an extra digital delay It's not as bad. One would think OTA TV would have the funds to have an audio chain at least as "good" as radio. Gray has it's home offices in Atlanta. I called the receptionist and she said she noticed it too but she wasn't in a position to complain. She did promised to pass it on. This got worse when they remodeled the studios. Atlanta Channel 5 (Fox O and O) and WSB channel 2 are not as bad.

 

[PTBoardOp93]

I checked the settings. My settings are correct. When I stream CBS on Paramount which is 46 with an extra digital delay It's not as bad. One would think OTA TV would have the funds to have an audio chain at least as "good" as radio.

They almost certainly do have the same sort of Orban audio processor you might use on radio (not exactly the same model because of some subtleties in how TV audio is modulated).

 

[Kelly A]

I checked the settings. My settings are correct. When I stream CBS on Paramount which is 46 with an extra digital delay It's not as bad. One would think OTA TV would have the funds to have an audio chain at least as "good" as radio. Gray has it's home offices in Atlanta. I called the receptionist and she said she noticed it too but she wasn't in a position to complain. She did promised to pass it on. This got worse when they remodeled the studios. Atlanta Channel 5 (Fox O and O) and WSB channel 2 are not as bad.

So, are you saying ALL Atlanta local stations are suffering the same issue? If so, then I still say you have an audio menu setting that's enhancing the spots because all stations wouldn't have the exact same issue.
I'm skeptical because I've heard the same complaint many times before from viewers who claimed every station had the same problem. One in particular claimed their TV was set right and they were going to the FCC, blah...blah.. I ended up doing a Facetime session with them and sure enough, their TV audio menu was set to 'surround'.

Regarding audio processing; some stations have it, some don't The one's that don't make it a point of ingesting all the spots, promos, programs, etc. at -24LKFS. For example; NBC O&O stations are not permitted to use audio processing, where Fox O&O's process their audio like a Top 40 radio station.

 

[secondchoice]

So, are you saying ALL Atlanta local stations are suffering the same issue? If so, then I still say you have an audio menu setting that's enhancing the spots because all stations wouldn't have the exact same issue.
I'm skeptical because I've heard the same complaint many times before from viewers who claimed every station had the same problem. One in particular claimed their TV was set right and they were going to the FCC, blah...blah.. I ended up doing a Facetime session with them and sure enough, their TV audio menu was set to 'surround'.

Regarding audio processing; some stations have it, some don't The one's that don't make it a point of ingesting all the spots, promos, programs, etc. at -24LKFS. For example; NBC O&O stations are not permitted to use audio processing, where Fox O&O's process their audio like a Top 40 radio station.

Streaming is not an issue commercial volume wise. 46 was the worst. 17, same owner is good, 11 and 36 are good, I only watch 2's news but 2.3 and 2.4 commercial levels seem normal. As I stated, I called the Gray office. This evening the commercials are at normal levels. I have never set foot in the station so what happened is only speculation.

BTW After your post I checked our Fox O & O (5) and it is slightly louder but consistently level. Like you said Top 40.

 

[crainbebo]

This is an issue all the time at KAPP-35 in Yakima. When we picked up the signal via DirecTV or Spectrum, the commercials were at the same level as the TV show. But OTA, there are several advertisers that air their commercials at double the volume of other commercials and sometimes louder than that. It is ridiculous.

This never happens at KIMA/KNDO/KCYU.

 

[bigdonho]

They almost certainly do have the same sort of Orban audio processor you might use on radio (not exactly the same model because of some subtleties in how TV audio is modulated).

My experience in TV was "You got audio, don't you? So, what's your bitch?)

 

[Kelly A]

My experience in TV was "You got audio, don't you? So, what's your bitch?)

NBC has a PHD on staff to consult on all things audio. That's where they've come up with the no-processing rule.

 

[Dr. Bob]

NBC has a PHD on staff to consult on all things audio. That's where they've come up with the no-processing rule.

Well, I‘m glad to say NBC seems to have gotten wiser over the years. Back in the early 80’s when network distribution via satellite was beginning, NBC was the only one of the major three to use Ku band which Is affected by rain. WALA-TV in Mobile had to install a second Ku dish at their transmitter on the east side of Mobile bay and backhaul the signal so they could have network when it was raining heavily at the studios (and that happens often in Mobile as it is the wettest city in the continental U.S.)

 

[crainbebo]

And here I thought Forks, WA was the rain capital of the U.S. all these years...you stumped me there Dr. Bob

 

[Kelly A]

Well, I‘m glad to say NBC seems to have gotten wiser over the years. Back in the early 80’s when network distribution via satellite was beginning, NBC was the only one of the major three to use Ku band which Is affected by rain. WALA-TV in Mobile had to install a second Ku dish at their transmitter on the east side of Mobile bay and backhaul the signal so they could have network when it was raining heavily at the studios (and that happens often in Mobile as it is the wettest city in the continental U.S.)

Sorry, am I missing something? What does that have to do with audio and audio processing?

 

[Dr. Bob]

Sorry, am I missing something? What does that have to do with audio and audio processing?

It has to do with a national network - who in the past thought they were above reproach - doing something “right” (in this case audio) instead of something “wrong”.

 

[Kelly A]

It has to do with a national network - who in the past thought they were above reproach - doing something “right” (in this case audio) instead of something “wrong”.

A lot has changed in 44 years.

 

[RadioFan2J3]

They almost certainly do have the same sort of Orban audio processor you might use on radio (not exactly the same model because of some subtleties in how TV audio is modulated).

I think my lack of good understanding into the technical aspects of digital television transmission as it pertains the accompanying audio is going to show here, but in regards to the comment about how TV audio is modulated, that might have very well been true in the days of analog television, with the audio being an FM carrier (in the overall transmitted bandwidth), and issues with pre-emphasis and de-emphasis, being different from FM broadcasting in the United States and the 25kHz limit for 100% modulation.

With digital television transmission, would there necessarily be any requirements for pre-emphasis and de-emphasis? There is no carrier deviation amount defined for 100% modulation, right?

What would be unusual about the audio on a digital television service which would not also apply to digital distribution of any other audio? I know, that opens up the discussion to the possible intent of those audio services.

 

[The New Chico]

And here I thought Forks, WA was the rain capital of the U.S. all these years...you stumped me there Dr. Bob

Forks gets almost twice the rain per year as Mobile, 120 inches vs. 67. It really comes down to how one defines "city." Forks is legally a city as far as WA State defines it, but I suspect Mobile passes some threshold in population that puts it on the top of the list. Astoria OR gets over 70 inches a year but only has 11,000 residents. Aberdeen WA gets 84 inches a year but only has a population around 15,000. I am guessing the folks who call Mobile the wettest city likely mean the "wettest city over 50,000 people."

Hilo HI gets 120 inches a year and has 47,000 people. 47,000 very wet people.

 

[Kelly A]

I think my lack of good understanding into the technical aspects of digital television transmission as it pertains the accompanying audio is going to show here, but in regards to the comment about how TV audio is modulated, that might have very well been true in the days of analog television, with the audio being an FM carrier (in the overall transmitted bandwidth), and issues with pre-emphasis and de-emphasis, being different from FM broadcasting in the United States and the 25kHz limit for 100% modulation.

With digital television transmission, would there necessarily be any requirements for pre-emphasis and de-emphasis? There is no carrier deviation amount defined for 100% modulation, right?

Pre-emphasis and de-emphasis for analog FM stereo are used for high-frequency noise reduction. Since ATSC 1.0 DTV is a 6Mhz wide digitally modulated carrier that includes digital packets for audio, video, and other data services, there is no audio equalization required.

What would be unusual about the audio on a digital television service which would not also apply to digital distribution of any other audio? I know, that opens up the discussion to the possible intent of those audio services.

Years ago the FCC enacted The Calm Act: Sound Volume Requirements for Commercials (CALM Act)
The purpose was to reduce the complaints from viewers about uneven or overly loud commercial audio on the newly launched DTV services. Because DTV is digital, there is no aural legal modulation limits involved, so in 2013 ATSC developed a voluntary standard audio level for spots at -24LKFS: https://www.atsc.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/A85-2013.pdf

 

[Kelly A]

Forks gets almost twice the rain per year as Mobile, 120 inches vs. 67. It really comes down to how one defines "city." Forks is legally a city as far as WA State defines it, but I suspect Mobile passes some threshold in population that puts it on the top of the list. Astoria OR gets over 70 inches a year but only has 11,000 residents. Aberdeen WA gets 84 inches a year but only has a population around 15,000. I am guessing the folks who call Mobile the wettest city likely mean the "wettest city over 50,000 people."

Hilo HI gets 120 inches a year and has 47,000 people. 47,000 very wet people.

Big differences between Forks and Hilo. Hilo is a beautiful, tropical island rainforest. Forks is...well..Forks.

 

[RadioFan2J3]

Pre-emphasis and de-emphasis for analog FM stereo are used for high-frequency noise reduction. Since ATSC 1.0 DTV is a 6Mhz wide digitally modulated carrier that includes digital packets for audio, video, and other data services, there is no audio equalization required.

Didn't pre-emphasis and de-emphasis precede stereo FM or TV audio broadcasting?

One of the points regarding FM broadcast audio processing was the concern regarding pre-emphasis, from a modulation limit context?

But again, wouldn't audio processing for digital transmission not be affected with these concerns? That was my point earlier.

Years ago the FCC enacted The Calm Act: Sound Volume Requirements for Commercials (CALM Act)
The purpose was to reduce the complaints from viewers about uneven or overly loud commercial audio on the newly launched DTV services. Because DTV is digital, there is no aural legal modulation limits involved, so in 2013 ATSC developed a voluntary standard audio level for spots at -24LKFS: https://www.atsc.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/A85-2013.pdf

I didn't read the full document, but one might look at the fact that apparently, there are still viewer concerns regarding the differences in audio levels between program content and commercials' content. Voluntary compliance might not be effective.