Declining radio audiences

[b-turner]

I think we need to consider radio stations as 'product' and consumers as choosing where the consume the product (over the radio, app or website). Over the radio listening gives way to the app or online while working, for example.

While radio listening is now in shorter spurts of time versus in the past decades, how does radio compare to online only product.

I can say for myself, I will stay put on a radio station much longer before tuning away than I will an online 'product' music or spoken. While I am one who loves various types of music from classical to rock and love hearing a new artist or song, I'm just like all the others. I try an online station and then some song I've never heard comes on that I don't care for so I'm gone. Podcasts are even more subject to tune out. If you don't get to the point in about 30 seconds, I'm gone. For example, one podcaster spent the first 30 seconds or so talking about the caliber of their guest (more about how lucky they were to get him on and not why they were so lucky to have him on). And a pre-roll commercial is a negative to me. A commercial or two within is okay but not when I click play.

 

[TheBigA]

Like BigA says, everything is another appliance now.

I also said the same thing about my iPhone. When something's new, it's easy to get excited about it. After you've had it a while, it becomes common.

At one time, radio manufacturers would come out with new radios to revive interest. That hasn't happened in over 25 years.

What we started to see in the 90s was that people stopped listening to just one station. They might have five stations among their favorites.

 

[radiofan2023]

I think we need to consider radio stations as 'product' and consumers as choosing where the consume the product (over the radio, app or website). Over the radio listening gives way to the app or online while working, for example.

While radio listening is now in shorter spurts of time versus in the past decades, how does radio compare to online only product.

I can say for myself, I will stay put on a radio station much longer before tuning away than I will an online 'product' music or spoken. While I am one who loves various types of music from classical to rock and love hearing a new artist or song, I'm just like all the others. I try an online station and then some song I've never heard comes on that I don't care for so I'm gone. Podcasts are even more subject to tune out. If you don't get to the point in about 30 seconds, I'm gone. For example, one podcaster spent the first 30 seconds or so talking about the caliber of their guest (more about how lucky they were to get him on and not why they were so lucky to have him on). And a pre-roll commercial is a negative to me. A commercial or two within is okay but not when I click play.

I'd rather have preroll ads than annoying autoinsterted ads in the middle of a podcast whenever a host pauses to take a breath.

 

[K.M. Richards]

I'd rather have preroll ads than annoying autoinsterted ads in the middle of a podcast whenever a host pauses to take a breath.

One of the few podcasts I listen to is "Countdown with Keith Olbermann". While there is about 90 seconds of pre-roll advertising, three clicks of the "skip ahead" on iHeart's player gets past them reasonably quickly. The rest of the spots come at the end of program segments that Keith specifically formats for and every once in a while there will be a single commercial tacked on at the end.

 

[radiofan2023]

Does Olbermann own his podcast or is he doing it for a separate company? Some of the best podcast ads I've ever heard were live reads by Bill Burr on his own podcast (NSFW due to swearing):

 

[RadioGuy1864]

I don't mind a :30 pre roll. Anything longer is annoying. Same with in program. I'll tolerate a :30, but not multiple spots.

 

[K.M. Richards]

Does Olbermann own his podcast or is he doing it for a separate company?

He frequently mentions that he records it in his NYC apartment (in a part of his bedroom closet that he adapted into a recording "studio"). His dogs -- he owns several Maltese -- sometimes make a brief "appearance".

Apparently he does it under contract to iHeart, based on the disclaimers at the beginning and end.

 

[K.M. Richards]

I don't mind a :30 pre roll. Anything longer is annoying. Same with in program. I'll tolerate a :30, but not multiple spots.

As I said, three clicks. No more annoying than just one. The reality is that podcasts can't survive on single spot breaks.

 

[Deus Ex Machiato]

FWIW, I recall people being passionate about a radio station. Maybe it was mostly a local Seattle thing, but KISW had a fairly passionate audience, and it wasn't just the music, the station also had a following.

It wasn't just a Seattle thing. It was everywhere. If you were a CHR or a country station or whatever, chances are there was another station "across the street" that was playing the same music as yours was, and you had a couple ways of winning the "battle." You mentioned t-shirts, bumper stickers, and there was also the constant contesting, but (IMO) more important was the content. The stuff "in between the songs," from unique jocks to wild morning shows and even down to creative imaging. Your station had to be entertaining in between the records, because anyone can play the hits.

The t-shirts, bumper stickers, fridge magnets, coffee cups, etc. were about recall. You hoped that someone would sit down at the kitchen table with your station's coffee cup and fill out the diary with your station's pencil. PPM changed all that.

Listeners no longer needed to remember your station. They just had to have the meter. So a lot of stations stopped trying to be memorable (by having entertaining content in between the songs) and started playing to that one house in that hot zip who had the meter. Getting them to listen for another 5 minutes rather than being passionate about your radio station. Are radio audiences declining? Of course. Why? You could say that it's because there's more competition, and you'd be right. Spotify and other streaming platforms can provide the music. Podcasts can fill the talk void. Tik Tok is good for short blasts of (maybe) entertaining content. But radio (waits for The Big A to chime in and say "radio isn't one thing!" again) ceded the high ground to all of them. There's nothing that radio can give people that they can't get from a streaming service (music), podcasts (talk) and YouTube/Tik Tok (entertaining content). Radio used to be all of these things. Not anymore. It's a jukebox with generic voice tracked liner card readers plus 10 spots per break several times an hour.

When I got into the radio business, you could walk up to any kid (or most adults for that matter), ask them "what's your favorite radio station?" and they could tell you in a heartbeat.

I work at a tech company now, almost everyone I work with is under 40, and many are under 30. If I ask them "what's your favorite radio station?" I'm likely to get a blank stare. At best I get "oh...um...my mom used to listen to the radio."

 

[TheBigA]

Radio used to be all of these things. Not anymore. It's a jukebox with generic voice tracked liner card readers plus 10 spots per break several times an hour.

Have you listened to KISW lately? It's very much based on local hosts. No generic voice tracked liner card readers. It's not the only station like this.

When I got into the radio business, you could walk up to any kid (or most adults for that matter), ask them "what's your favorite radio station?" and they could tell you in a heartbeat.."

At one time, people liked one kind of music too. Not anymore. It's becoming harder to build a radio station around a genre. The lines have become blurred, and everyone wants a personalized playlist.

 

[davideduardo]

OK, they loved the radio station because they could win stuff. WNBC's Gonna Make Me Rich. Or free tickets to the music I want to see.

Some people only.

There was plenty of research back when we could budget that sort of thing showing that contests had the main goal of creating an exciting atmosphere on the air. The secondary goal was to incentivize listeners to listen longer.

The classic "creating an excitement" contest was McCoy's "Last Contest" at KCBQ. It involved fantasy (exotic prizes), extended listening, excitement around the promos and winner build-ups, reasons to fill in the diary and more.

But the main reason was to make the station sound exciting. Listeners played along, followed the prizes. Same thing that propels the big game shows on TV into additional season after additional season.

That still happens, but the object still is the music. Look when I got my first iPhone, I loved it. But ten years later, it's an appliance.

The object "back then" was NOT the music, at least with me and programmers of the McCoy caliber that I knew and talked with at the conventions. It was about the STATION and stationality; it was the difference between a fixed camera in thae 50's showing a dance and the high-above-the-stage rafters shots and other angles that Jackie Gleason pioneered with his June Taylor Dancers who were so good even Ed Sullivan invited them to appear:

Look about 5 minutes in at the ceiling shot. That is what "The Last Contest" was for radio.

 

[semoochie]

One of the few podcasts I listen to is "Countdown with Keith Olbermann". While there is about 90 seconds of pre-roll advertising, three clicks of the "skip ahead" on iHeart's player gets past them reasonably quickly. The rest of the spots come at the end of program segments that Keith specifically formats for and every once in a while there will be a single commercial tacked on at the end.

I recommend listening to Keith on his You Tube channel.

 

[davideduardo]

It wasn't just a Seattle thing. It was everywhere. If you were a CHR or a country station or whatever, chances are there was another station "across the street" that was playing the same music as yours was, and you had a couple ways of winning the "battle." You mentioned t-shirts, bumper stickers, and there was also the constant contesting, but (IMO) more important was the content. The stuff "in between the songs," from unique jocks to wild morning shows and even down to creative imaging. Your station had to be entertaining in between the records, because anyone can play the hits.

The t-shirts, bumper stickers, fridge magnets, coffee cups, etc. were about recall. You hoped that someone would sit down at the kitchen table with your station's coffee cup and fill out the diary with your station's pencil. PPM changed all that.

Listeners no longer needed to remember your station. They just had to have the meter. So a lot of stations stopped trying to be memorable (by having entertaining content in between the songs) and started playing to that one house in that hot zip who had the meter.

I agree with your first two paragraphs, but the error of many PDs and corporate ownership is to thing that identity or what I call stationality is not important. We now know that those "9 AM to 5 PM" diary entries were really 10 or 12 instances of 8 to 15 minute listening, broken by things people do all day.

Listeners need to no what they are listening to and have a reason to come back, over and over. At one point, before Nielsen bought Arbitron, one of the market-by-market road shows Arbitron had for early PPM training showed how one station had an average of a dozen instance per day by all of its P1 listeners... over and over they came back. The station used for the example was the one I structured with the PD in San Francisco: Recuerdo. We had a minimum of 25 identity markers an hour, whether it was jingles, the "Recuerdo weather" or the "Recuerdo has another chance to win" mentions.

Getting them to listen for another 5 minutes rather than being passionate about your radio station.

Really it is about getting them to come back. Research that I did myself for all the Univision FMs showed that listeners could not extend listening; they had to get out of the car and go into the store or work.... they had to go to the restroom, the stockroom, the loading dock... they had a meeting... they went to another part of the house or the office or store... and so on.

What is needed is to keep them with you every time they come back.

Are radio audiences declining? Of course. Why? You could say that it's because there's more competition, and you'd be right. Spotify and other streaming platforms can provide the music. Podcasts can fill the talk void. Tik Tok is good for short blasts of (maybe) entertaining content. But radio (waits for The Big A to chime in and say "radio isn't one thing!" again) ceded the high ground to all of them. There's nothing that radio can give people that they can't get from a streaming service (music), podcasts (talk) and YouTube/Tik Tok (entertaining content). Radio used to be all of these things. Not anymore. It's a jukebox with generic voice tracked liner card readers plus 10 spots per break several times an hour.

Yep, and there is no stationality on most of 'em.

 

[Deus Ex Machiato]

At one time, people liked one kind of music too. Not anymore. It's becoming harder to build a radio station around a genre. The lines have become blurred, and everyone wants a personalized playlist.

Yeah, it's hard to build a radio station around a genre. Maybe try building one based on content that doesn't stick to one genre?

When I was a young lad, my parents listened to this thing called a "full service" station. There was a talk show in the morning, an interview show afterwards, a classical music show during the day, I can't remember what was on in the afternoon/evening (because I was listening to the AOR stations) and then a really creative overnight jazz show. The station was at the top of the heap in ratings and revenue. They also had a helluva news department.

Now, am I suggesting that there should be a return to full service stations? I dunno. It's not my job anymore to chase ratings and revenue. But when I flip through my radio dial, nobody (at least in my market) is doing much of anything to break out of the long-standing model of building a radio station around a genre. There's the CHR stations, the classic rock station, the "alternative" station, the country stations, etc. etc. etc.

Somewhere in the box of my old radio stuff, I have a sheet we used to hand out to sales people when they were trying to get an advertiser on the air. It was a list of questions, but it boiled down to "what is your Unique Selling Point? What is it that your company can do that no one else does?" Or failing that, what is it that you do better than all the others?

I'd ask the same question of every individual radio station and "radio" in general.

 

[davideduardo]

I also said the same thing about my iPhone. When something's new, it's easy to get excited about it. After you've had it a while, it becomes common.

Same with color TV. It was exciting in the early days, making us watch some horrible shows just because they were in color. Once everyone was broadcasting in color and we all had color TVs, it made no difference.

At one time, radio manufacturers would come out with new radios to revive interest. That hasn't happened in over 25 years.

The only significant events in radio hardware were...

... the introduction of portable transistor radios in the later 50's allowing radio to be taken anywhere easily with no cord and with very inexpensive batteries (the set of batteries for a tube model Zenith TransOceanic before then was on the order of $40 in 1950's money).

... the introduction of the boom box which made group and party listening easy.

... the transistorization of car radios which lowered the price and vastly improved reliability.

And, maybe, the introduction of decent non-drifting FM radios in the early 60's when AFC was added.

But in each case, the new products did not have mass appeal. Little pocket radios were for kids, boom boxes were for urban youth groups, and so on.

What we started to see in the 90s was that people stopped listening to just one station. They might have five stations among their favorites.

Looking back at my first diary reviews in Beltsville in 1970, I can say that the average of 3 stations per diary endured consistently through the start of the PPM era... about four decades. With the PPM we found a seven-day average of 5 stations per listener, mostly because very secondary listening was picked up... the classic case of the Jewish New Yorker hearing Mega when they went to the bodega for needed items.

 

[K.M. Richards]

It's a jukebox with generic voice tracked liner card readers plus 10 spots per break several times an hour.

Could you please not exaggerate like that? We have already established in this thread that stations with long stopsets do them twice an hour. No more than that.

 

[b-turner]

The exaggeration is common. One of our listeners complained about an hour with 5 minutes of world/national news, 5 minutes of sports, 10 minutes of local news and 40 minutes of commercials making us capable of squeezing in only 4 songs. I asked him how many minutes were in an hour.

 

[K.M. Richards]

The exaggeration is common.

As I said in another thread on another subject, we have the tendency to use phrases like "something goes wrong every other minute" when obviously there isn't something going wrong 30 times in an hour.

The OP has been around here long enough (since May 2019) to know that the stopsets don't happen "several times an hour" ... but I would have expected him to not fall back on that kind of exaggeration. He's not one of the clueless types you referenced.

 

[K.M. Richards]

Yeah, it's hard to build a radio station around a genre. Maybe try building one based on content that doesn't stick to one genre?

Actually, with the exception of some multi-cultural ethnic stations and a good percentage of non-comms, such a philosophy (we called it "block" programming back when I was getting started in the business) works against building an audience. Today's listeners expect consistency from a station whenever they tune in ... the only real exception being those stations with personalities in the morning and less of the actual format, which listeners seem to make allowances for.

Sure, you could put a block-programmed station on the air somewhere, but you would then have to market each program or genre to build the audience for each. You would also be guaranteed to lose any agency buys. The ratings would be meaningless unless you only switched genres at the traditional daypart start and end hours. And you would be hard pressed to find advertisers who would advertise all day on such a station.

You'd need deep pockets to stay afloat even trying such an experiment.

 

[Deus Ex Machiato]

The exaggeration is common. One of our listeners complained about an hour with 5 minutes of world/national news, 5 minutes of sports, 10 minutes of local news and 40 minutes of commercials making us capable of squeezing in only 4 songs. I asked him how many minutes were in an hour.

Well that's the thing, isn't it? Perception often trumps reality. On another forum, I was talking about the rise of Rush Limbaugh and about a discussion I'd had with a consultant about stop set loads and times. Back in the days of "Rush Rooms" it didn't matter than the station would break for news/traffic/weather at the top and bottom of every hour, and run four long commercial breaks.

The content was good enough to make people forget about all of that, and keep coming back.

Similar thing with music stations. We've all heard complaints from listeners who say "you play the same song three times an hour!" That's objectively false, but the perception is the thing. How do you overcome that perception? Put yourself in the shoes of those people and ask "why they're saying that?"