• Get involved.
    We want your input!
    Apply for Membership and join the conversations about everything related to broadcasting.

    After we receive your registration, a moderator will review it. After your registration is approved, you will be permitted to post.
    If you use a disposable or false email address, your registration will be rejected.

    After your membership is approved, please take a minute to tell us a little bit about yourself.
    https://www.radiodiscussions.com/forums/introduce-yourself.1088/

    Thanks in advance and have fun!
    RadioDiscussions Administrators

Beliefs and myths

This is 70 miles per hour car radio DXing so I can't be sure can't be sure my results will hold up.

My question is: does the frequency matter that much assuming equal power? The reason I ask is on cold winter days I get WLAC 1510 (leaving Birmingham) going up I 59 better than WSM 650 in northwest Alabama. In the summer time WSB is faint and WLAC is almost non receivable on the same stretch of road.

Do snow coverage help or hurt daytime AM signals? One would think it would help in areas of poor soil conductivity. But when I working at KIUL in Garden City KS, on the few snowy days they have it seemed to hurt the signal 50 miles out.

I not all that interested in the technical science answers I have studied enough science to know about the ionosphere and it's reflective ability for AM. But DX'ers deal with these conditions daily and would have real world experience.
 
does the frequency matter that much assuming equal power?
Yes. With equal power, signals at the longer wavelengths of the low end of the AM band will have much greater groundwave coverage than the shorter wavelengths at the high end of the band. David Eduardo loves to point out that 1kw on 550 does just as well as 50kw on 1600.
The reason I ask is on cold winter days I get WLAC 1510 (leaving Birmingham) going up I 59 better than WSM 650 in northwest Alabama.
What time of day are we talking about? Within a couple of hours after sunrise or before sunset you will have a good deal of skywave (the so-called “critical hours”) that will enhance reception, especially at the high end of the band. Listening around local noon would give you a better idea of true groundwave coverage, though I have heard mid-day skywave from ~1,000 miles away a few times during the winter months.
Do snow coverage help or hurt daytime AM signals?
From my experience groundwave seems to be enhanced a bit after widespread rainfall. I would think snow would have the same effect, though living in SE Texas I don’t get to experience that. When I lived in the Texas Panhandle I don’t recall snow cover having any great effect on AM reception.

Keep in mind that you have to consider AM directional patterns when comparing signals from the same location.
 
the higher frequencies will behave a bit more like shortwave in terms of skip... when i was in SE Wyoming, I could hear KNZR BAkersfield from about 3/4pm to 10am most days in the winter.. the lower frequencies were last to show up and first to go
 
I had asked once or twice if Nor'easter snow piling up a few hundred miles inland (as it WILL) can result in some of that saltwater-path enhancement. The whole weather system, after all, is past land and giving us its exhaust from straight off the ocean. The usual ocean effluvium. Salt, eels, syringes, spy balloons.
I did get some polite responses, like I'm 'using too much salt on my drink rims' and 'I ..... don't .... think you'll be hearing Atlantic City and Monmouth County (NJ) stations drowning out your locals'. Mostly, I got 'No'.
And really; I never listened during those times. Just shovelled.

@ secondchice:
On your 50,000-watt signals: Media Frog, Paul, Shroedinger and others probably will have any findings or axioms about cancellation zones vis a vis frequency (if there ARE any general tenets, that is; stuff like that is way over my head. 50,000-watt omnis like KDKA and WGY have terrible signals, for example. There's also co-channel interference, the Aurora index, etc.
 
Cold, snowy days tend to have vastly less atmospheric noise (natural, not man made) so it seems that stations cover more. However, snow is fresh water which is not particularly conductive so it's just the coincidence of low noise levels when there is snow on the ground.
 
This has been premier DXing in Dallas, TX. There has been some M-IF with as per normal but some really good coverage. This morning with a directional loop I got 650 WSM noding at 4 on the S-Meter, 840 WHAS 7AM reading this morning in my car clear, KOA 850 at night and an interesting 7:15AM reading at 1540 KXEL, also this morning.

I am excited it is like getting WLS 46 years ago as an eight year old. This is why winter is my favorite time of the year, stations come in like gangbusters.

*650 was the only directional loop station I checked so far the others the old fashioned way - a car radio. Anyway, I wanted to share my joy with you guys.
 
I didn't realize till recently that the frequencies on the AM band, high or low, don't make much difference at night. Stations high on the dial and low on the dial have roughly equal skywave propagation. At night, if you're in Seattle, your chances of picking up 1530 KFBK Sacramento are about the same as picking up 740 KCBS San Francisco, both 50,000 watt directional Class A stations. Skywave effects all AM frequencies pretty much equally.

Of course, in the daytime, stations low on the dial have markedly better propagation. Ground conductivity and skywave are two different animals.
 
I didn't realize till recently that the frequencies on the AM band, high or low, don't make much difference at night. Stations high on the dial and low on the dial have roughly equal skywave propagation. At night, if you're in Seattle, your chances of picking up 1530 KFBK Sacramento are about the same as picking up 740 KCBS San Francisco, both 50,000 watt directional Class A stations. Skywave effects all AM frequencies pretty much equally.

No, no it really doesnt.

What do you think was the most common Seattle station i hear after sunrise when in SE WY?

1590 KLFE.

And comparing KCBS to KFBK is like comparing apples to oranges... skywave IS different at higher frequencies, KFBK uses a tower that favors sklywave, KCBS Doesnt..... and they have different patterns and different same/adjacent channel stations to content with.


I have NEVER heard KCBS nearly as well, EVER.. as i hear KFBK... and this clip of KFBK is pretty common and usual
 
No, no it really doesnt.

What do you think was the most common Seattle station i hear after sunrise when in SE WY?

1590 KLFE.
And the effect is even more pronounced on the expanded AM band. When you get to 1800, you're in the 160-meter amateur band, and nighttime reception there borders on shortwave quality when it comes to limited power carrying long distances via sky wave.
 
And the effect is even more pronounced on the expanded AM band. When you get to 1800, you're in the 160-meter amateur band, and nighttime reception there borders on shortwave quality when it comes to limited power carrying long distances via sky wave.
1700 xepe is better hear then youd expect. all things being ABOUT ish equal, 1090 isnt...... 10kw on 1700 is roughly ish 50kw on 1090 and both have two towers. (since 1090 lost a tower)
 
Speaking of which, what is 1711-1799 khz being used for these days? I never hear anything there, day or night. Is it allocated to LORAN or some other obsolete range-detection system?
 
Speaking of which, what is 1711-1799 khz being used for these days? I never hear anything there, day or night. Is it allocated to LORAN or some other obsolete range-detection system?
The 1710-1800 kHz range is essentially empty these days, though I occasionally see reports of Morse code marker signals. Decades ago I remember hearing many navigation signals (various tone and pulsing “harmonies”) at night across the larger 1600-1800 range; this was well before the AM broadcast band expanded to 1700.

LORAN-A was on 1850 and 1950 kHz, and could be heard day and night with its multiple pulse signals. These were inside the 160 meter amateur band, so hams had to work around them. Those LORAN transmissions ended around 1980.

The early generations of cordless phones (used for landline connections) had base stations that operated between 1690 and 1770 kHz (handsets were on 46 or 49 MHz.) These were from the 1970s; might be a few vintage units still in use.
 
@SomeRadioGuy

For some reason that KLFE 590 Seattle you mention was clarion and very present for a few gleeful nights for DXers as far East as Ohio back ~ 1970. Washington is a tough state to hear on AM back east, so when DX-club word got out of it, this station got glommed as if it were a limited blizzard of Inverted Jenny :24 cent postage stamps.
The calls were different -- might've been KUUU. They were 5000 watts 24/7, directional at night with a lot of juice going southeast.

(Often wonder, from back in the days of analog AM dials, if its then-broader available palate of radio dial space at 540, 570, etc. provided a little extra coverage to those stations. You know -- more generous sidebands than those at 1440, 1470, etc. I remember spinning dial on only two radios (an Atwater-Kent and an actual RCA cathedral job) that didn't squish the upper frequencies together like a wrung out sponge).
 
The early generations of cordless phones (used for landline connections) had base stations that operated between 1690 and 1770 kHz (handsets were on 46 or 49 MHz.) These were from the 1970s; might be a few vintage units still in use.
The units that used the 1.6 - 1.7 MHz band only utilized 49 MHz for their handsets (49.83, 49.845, 49.86, 49.875, and 49.89 MHz). Those same five frequencies were also used by baby monitors, and most prominently, the hoards of cheap walkie-talkie models sold for close-range use by retailers like Radio Shack and Toys 'R' Us. The FCC eventually allocated the 46 MHz frequencies as replacements for the 1.6 - 1.7 MHz base frequencies (and ultimately several more frequencies in the 4x MHz range to raise the total number of channels to 25 due to overcrowding).
 
I didn't realize till recently that the frequencies on the AM band, high or low, don't make much difference at night. Stations high on the dial and low on the dial have roughly equal skywave propagation. At night, if you're in Seattle, your chances of picking up 1530 KFBK Sacramento are about the same as picking up 740 KCBS San Francisco, both 50,000 watt directional Class A stations. Skywave effects all AM frequencies pretty much equally.

Of course, in the daytime, stations low on the dial have markedly better propagation. Ground conductivity and skywave are two different animals.
I don't mean to join the gang here and knock your statement, but the high band and low band do indeed act differently. Even though they are reacting to the same ionosphere that refracts the skywaves, the low band sometimes 'comes in' later than the high MW band, and leaves earlier sometimes, as well.

As for KFBK and KCBS, they have always come in differently here in the Seattle area, at least at my own location in the metro region. KCBS is always marginal. KFBK is a strong regional, sometimes with near local level signals. Why this is? I don't really know. KFBK has a Franklin antenna system. Not sure if that's the reason. 1530 vs. 740? That might be a reason. It could be that Sacramento stations sometimes get out really well. KSTE 650 is a frequent visitor to the Seattle area, and often it's with quite readable signals.
 
I don't mean to join the gang here and knock your statement, but the high band and low band do indeed act differently. Even though they are reacting to the same ionosphere that refracts the skywaves, the low band sometimes 'comes in' later than the high MW band, and leaves earlier sometimes, as well.

As for KFBK and KCBS, they have always come in differently here in the Seattle area, at least at my own location in the metro region. KCBS is always marginal. KFBK is a strong regional, sometimes with near local level signals. Why this is? I don't really know. KFBK has a Franklin antenna system. Not sure if that's the reason. 1530 vs. 740? That might be a reason. It could be that Sacramento stations sometimes get out really well. KSTE 650 is a frequent visitor to the Seattle area, and often it's with quite readable signals.

Yes you do know, and i kind of explained it earlier.... comparing KCBS to KFBK is like apples/oranges/night/day. KCBS's DA pattern is much more restrictive, KFBK's is now.

KFBK's towers are a type.. a franklin.. that favor skywave.. KCBS's doesnt
 
I don't mean to join the gang here and knock your statement, but the high band and low band do indeed act differently. Even though they are reacting to the same ionosphere that refracts the skywaves, the low band sometimes 'comes in' later than the high MW band, and leaves earlier sometimes, as well.

As for KFBK and KCBS, they have always come in differently here in the Seattle area, at least at my own location in the metro region. KCBS is always marginal. KFBK is a strong regional, sometimes with near local level signals. Why this is? I don't really know. KFBK has a Franklin antenna system. Not sure if that's the reason. 1530 vs. 740? That might be a reason. It could be that Sacramento stations sometimes get out really well. KSTE 650 is a frequent visitor to the Seattle area, and often it's with quite readable signals.
OK, so you folks are saying that at night, the HIGHER you go on the AM dial, the better the propagation? Whereas, in the daytime, the lower you go on the AM dial, the better the propagation? (With similar wattage and antenna systems?)

And when it comes to KCBS vs. KFBK, you're saying KCBS's towers are not optimal for propagation? When I was in the Los Angeles area last year, KCBS came in like a local most nights. Very reliable. I honestly didn't try KFBK because I didn't think to go that high on the dial.

And Paul says, 1700 XEPE, at 10,000 watts from Tijuana, using I assume a non-directional antenna, is one of the most reliable West Coast stations for hearing up and down the Pacific?
 
OK, so you folks are saying that at night, the HIGHER you go on the AM dial, the better the propagation? Whereas, in the daytime, the lower you go on the AM dial, the better the propagation? (With similar wattage and antenna systems?)

And when it comes to KCBS vs. KFBK, you're saying KCBS's towers are not optimal for propagation? When I was in the Los Angeles area last year, KCBS came in like a local most nights. Very reliable. I honestly didn't try KFBK because I didn't think to go that high on the dial.

And Paul says, 1700 XEPE, at 10,000 watts from Tijuana, using I assume a non-directional antenna, is one of the most reliable West Coast stations for hearing up and down the Pacific?
It's more complicated than 'high band = optimal, low band = not optimal.' The higher you go, generally it is more similar to SW, except that doesn't mean you're automatically getting terrific reception the higher you go. The X band here often is touch and go, even though the stations are 1 KW at night. My most dependable DX station in the X band is KFSG Sacramento (1690) followed by KBRE Merced 1660. KDZR in Portland (1640) is usually pretty strong, but not as strong as it was 11 years ago when sometimes I'd hear it into the late morning.

Paul is in Alaska (obviously), so his reception is going to be different from mine here in WA, due to his latitude, the sunrise/sunset times at his location, and other factors. During Winter he has more darkness. He's also right under the Auroral Radio Zone, and that may be affecting his MW reception as well -- either positively, or negatively (he could tell you which it is).

Propagation depends on your location, the location of the station, and the position on the dial can indeed make a difference, as well. But it's all the factors together that come into play. For example, as Paul mentioned, the night pattern can make a difference. He gets KVRI Blaine 1600 like gangbusters because they basically beam all their signal in his direction. I get them most nights, sometimes really well. Other stations he gets really strong in AK I don't get all that well at my location.

KMIK 1580 Phoenix, when they were Radio Disney, were heard in Australia a lot, apparently, because their 50KW night pattern sent maybe 200KW out in the direction of the Pacific Ocean. Certainly, the high position on the dial probably helped, but when you're pushing your signal in one direction with 200KW ERP, it's probably going over the Pacific no matter where it is on the MW dial.

The most dependable California stations here in the Seattle area (at my location, anyway), are KGO and KFBK, followed by KNBR and probably a weak -- but generally consistent -- KFI. XEWW 690 is marginal most nights, covered by CBU (which is 140 mi N of me). Then you've got the decent regionals, which often show up, but aren't consistent, like KSTE 650.

I think most West Coast DXers would give KGO a better rep for being heard up and down the coast than XEPE or even some of the other high band stations.

XEPE came in much, much better in the 2010s here than it has over the past 8 years or so. I used to get it as late as 9 a.m. during the Winter and Fall, now it's grainy year round, if it's there. XEPE is in Tecate, maybe 120 miles inland from the coast, so they may have different skywave characteristics than they would right on the coast. I think the current Solar Cycle isn't yet favoring the type of DX that the last one did. It has yet to hit its peak. So that definitely comes into play as well.

The lower you go, probably the better the groundwave propagation. And if a station has a rep of getting out well -- like the two I mentioned, KOAC 550 and CBK 540 -- they'll get out really well at night, too, via skywave -- once that skywave kicks in. KOAC is only 5 KW, but they are one of the most dependable low band stations here in my location.

Generally, skywave will kick in on the high band before it reaches the low band. The propagation chracteristics seem to change in the 900-700 range.
 
Status
This thread has been closed due to inactivity. You can create a new thread to discuss this topic.


Back
Top Bottom