Saving AM Radio

[TexasTom]

As I understand it, to make AM work well in modern cars, it takes a lot of noise reduction, RFI reduction from car computer systems, etc.

The issue that car manufacturers have is that sure they could include AM radio, but it wouldn't work very well.

Same goes with AM/FM in cell phones.

At home, I can barely hear local AM stations at home on my desk because of all my computer and electronic gear overloading it with RFI. (It's true I'm an outlier and most people don't have as much digital gear on their desks as I do, heh!)

So simply enabling a chip feature alone doesn't solve the problem.

That being said, with more receivers moving to a SDR approach, you can do a lot more filtering of noise and cleaning the audio. But that's going to cost money too.

I drive an EV, which are the cars where AM radio supposedly has the worst noise problems. The AM radio works fine in it -- not any worse (or any better) than the AM reception in the last fully gas-powered car that I drove. For that matter, the AM radio also worked fine in my previous vehicle, which was a range-extended hybrid that would also supposedly have the noise problems.

This seems to be about the desire of some manufacturers who wish to save a couple bucks on a filter that is needed to make AM radio usable in their vehicles. And for context, Tesla deleted a temperature sensor from their vehicles that probably cost somewhere around 40 cents at quantity. (For those who don't want to click on unfamiliar links, the link is to an example IC from TI as priced by Mouser Electronics)

And while I certainly understand the desire of manufacturers to save a buck, it is also reasonable to note that there is an actual public interest (due to the EAS system) in maintaining support for AM radio reception. A few pages back, David noted that few people own a battery-powered radio anymore, so I'll note that the radios in our cars are the closest thing that many people have to such a device. And, yes, in an emergency people could go to their cars and listen to that radio for information when everything else is out.

 

[CTListener]

I drive an EV, which are the cars where AM radio supposedly has the worst noise problems. The AM radio works fine in it -- not any worse (or any better) than the AM reception in the last fully gas-powered car that I drove. For that matter, the AM radio also worked fine in my previous vehicle, which was a range-extended hybrid that would also supposedly have the noise problems.

This seems to be about the desire of some manufacturers who wish to save a couple bucks on a filter that is needed to make AM radio usable in their vehicles. And for context, Tesla deleted a temperature sensor from their vehicles that probably cost somewhere around 40 cents at quantity. (For those who don't want to click on unfamiliar links, the link is to an example IC from TI as priced by Mouser Electronics)

And while I certainly understand the desire of manufacturers to save a buck, it is also reasonable to note that there is an actual public interest (due to the EAS system) in maintaining support for AM radio reception. A few pages back, David noted that few people own a battery-powered radio anymore, so I'll note that the radios in our cars are the closest thing that many people have to such a device. And, yes, in an emergency people could go to their cars and listen to that radio for information when everything else is out.

If there's a tornado, rising floodwaters or a toxic gas cloud from a derailment approaching, the last thing I'd consider doing is going outside to the car! It's all getting rather amusing, this radio-geek conceit that imminent danger will trigger a "Let's turn on the AM radio!" response from ANYONE but themselves.

 

[TexasTom]

If there's a tornado, rising floodwaters or a toxic gas cloud from a derailment approaching, the last thing I'd consider doing is going outside to the car!

If the emergency is one that keeps me indoors, I'd just listen in my garage if I had to. Since I drive an EV, I don't have to worry about carbon monoxide, but for those who do that's what the accessory mode is for.

That said, it is certainly far from ideal. But my point is that if cell and Internet service are out and you're essentially cut off, that radio in your car might be all you've got for outside information.

 

[wadio]

If the emergency is one that keeps me indoors, I'd just listen in my garage if I had to. Since I drive an EV, I don't have to worry about carbon monoxide, but for those who do that's what the accessory mode is for.

That said, it is certainly far from ideal. But my point is that if cell and Internet service are out and you're essentially cut off, that radio in your car might be all you've got for outside information.

Not everyone has a garage to in which to sit during an emergency, nor to charge the EV!

 

[boombox4]

All the programming you cite is available online with CarPlay, Alexa, etc. That's the future (or something else we don't even know about yet.)

Your last paragraph is the only valid argument for saving the AM band. But that's not why Cruz says he wants it saved in cars. He showed his hand, and that's pure hypocrisy, IMO.

Cruz is not a radio expert. He is probably a consumer who happens to be in the Senate. Anything that comes off your smartphone for use in cars depends on the cell system. Cell systems aren't all that awesome in many rural areas, and -- as we've seen -- in some urban areas when disaster strikes.

And if people here think AM should be allowed to be kept off of car soundsystems because "we've got CarPlay! we've got Alexa!", or their own personal thoughts that AM is useless in emergencies (or otherwise), then the same people should have no problem with the defunding of CPB, which affects 1220 FM stations nationwide, and defunding may drive some smaller public radio stations off the air. "Let the marketplace decide" is a double edged sword.

 

[exbloguero]

And if people here think AM should be allowed to be kept off of car soundsystems because "we've got CarPlay! we've got Alexa!" then the same people should have no problem with the defunding of CPB, which affects 1220 FM stations nationwide, and defunding may drive some smaller public radio stations off the air. "Let the marketplace decide" is a double edged sword.

Wouldn't it be more feasible to have an initiative where the FCC manages a streaming infrastructure per service area and requires all licensed users to transmit via that route and generate a platform compatible with all consumer devices? The cost would be based on the licenses for those frequencies.

 

[fybush]

Wouldn't it be more feasible to have an initiative where the FCC manages a streaming infrastructure per service area and requires all licensed users to transmit via that route and generate a platform compatible with all consumer devices? The cost would be based on the licenses for those frequencies.

Create a budget for a fantasy like that and get back to us with the costs.

 

[wadio]

Cruz is not a radio expert. He is probably a consumer who happens to be in the Senate. Anything that comes off your smartphone for use in cars depends on the cell system. Cell systems aren't all that awesome in many rural areas, and -- as we've seen -- in some urban areas when disaster strikes.

And if people here think AM should be allowed to be kept off of car soundsystems because "we've got CarPlay! we've got Alexa!", or their own personal thoughts that AM is useless in emergencies (or otherwise), then the same people should have no problem with the defunding of CPB, which affects 1220 FM stations nationwide, and defunding may drive some smaller public radio stations off the air. "Let the marketplace decide" is a double edged sword.

Defunding and mandating are two completely different things.

 

[boombox4]

Defunding and mandating are two completely different things.

Not when you look at its effect on the radio stations in question. In one, the affect is to reduce AM listeners, as much AM listening is in vehicles. In the other, the effect is to reduce FM listeners, being that many smaller public radio stations will probably go off the air if funding is cut, and programming on bigger public stations will be cut back. Remember, a lot of NPR stations have already had to cut back on budgets and staff -- even with CPB funding remaining at Biden Administration levels.

So the effect is the same, either way.

 

[wadio]

So the effect is the same, either way.

True, if you jump out of a 10 story window, or if someone pushes you out of a 10 story window, the effect is the same.

But if Public Broadcasting is defunded by the Government, it probably won't go out of business. And there are other ways to make up the shortfall such as a private endowment funded by the millionaires and billionaires who believe it's an important cause.

If AM radio in cars is mandated, there's no way out. Auto manufacturers will be forced to include it. The cost might be minimal but still it defies the principle of a free market because there's no way for individuals to intervene.

Defunding PBS and dropping the AM mandate would not mean the end of civilization, but it would allow the Government to focus on more important issues.

 

[TheBigA]

If AM radio in cars is mandated, there's no way out. Auto manufacturers will be forced to include it.

The law is very flexible. Auto makers have several options to comply. And the law itself really doesn't have a significant penalty if they choose not to.

But if Public Broadcasting is defunded by the Government, it probably won't go out of business. And there are other ways to make up the shortfall such as a private endowment funded by the millionaires and billionaires who believe it's an important cause.

The attack on public broadcasting isn't being made strictly for financial reasons. They want to shut it down. In addition to cutting government funding, the FCC is doing an investigation on their sponsorship identification. They also changed the tax laws so donations don't carry the previous tax deduction advantages. Along the way, they're also making false claims about the company's news coverage and credibility. So this is more ideological than financial.

 

[wadio]

The attack on public broadcasting isn't being made strictly for financial reasons.

And the mandating of AM radio in cars isn't being made strictly for safety reasons!

 

[TheBigA]

And the mandating of AM radio in cars isn't being made strictly for safety reasons!

The purpose is to retain the access DHS has to the public airwaves for emergency notification using the EAS system paid for and mandated on broadcasters. You're fretting about a mandate to car makers while ignoring the mandate that exists for broadcasters. There is no free and open marketplace for broadcasters. They are forced to follow outdated laws while carmakers can do whatever they want.

 

[wadio]

The purpose is to retain the access DHS has to the public airwaves for emergency notification using the EAS system paid for and mandated on broadcasters. You're fretting about a mandate to car makers while ignoring the mandate that exists for broadcasters. There is no free and open marketplace for broadcasters. They are forced to follow outdated laws while carmakers can do whatever they want.

Notice I said :

And the mandating of AM radio in cars isn't being made strictly for safety reasons!

Ted Cruz and others have a different reason ... and I think we know what that is. 🤔

 

[davideduardo]

If AM radio in cars is mandated, there's no way out. Auto manufacturers will be forced to include it. The cost might be minimal but still it defies the principle of a free market because there's no way for individuals to intervene.

Yet we have had, since the mid-60's, a requirement that all radio stations be equipped to carry or participate in CONELRAD, EBS and EAS.

Car makers are not licensed directly, although highly regulated* so the case is different. But, still, it makes sense to require AM in cars since that band has the highest chance of survival and usefulness in the case of major disasters.

* Speaking of car regulations, has anyone ever read the extensive and ugly notice permanently pasted to the back of the passenger side sun shade? I'll bet that compliance with that totally useless notice is far more costly than keeping AM and, of course, far less useful.

 

[fybush]

I'm not even sure that's true anymore. Look at the LA fires - if KFI or KNX lost their AM sites, they're dead in the water. No off-site aux and it could take months or longer to spin up a replacement facility with similar coverage.

But even if the Eaton fire had made it all the way up to the top of Mount Wilson, the FM stations all have at least one good potent aux facility ready to take over seamlessly.

And as an engineer in 2025, I can whip up an emergency FM signal a LOT faster than an AM. Within an hour, I can get my hands on at least two compact frequency-agile transmitters sitting on or under benches in the market. I can fit an antenna bay and transmission line in my Subaru, and given a rooftop or hilltop, I could have something back on the air within a few hours, including an EAS receiver that will give my station all the same emergency alerts that would be heard over a PEP or LP-1 in my region.

Yes, you can "throw up a long wire" for an AM, but retuning a J1000 or MW1 isn't a simple job, and then there's the matter of a ground system and so on. All of which is to say, if there were ever some innate technical advantage to AM in the sort of vanishingly rare emergency scenario we're discussing, I don't know that one still exists in 2025.

 

[boombox4]

True, if you jump out of a 10 story window, or if someone pushes you out of a 10 story window, the effect is the same.

But if Public Broadcasting is defunded by the Government, it probably won't go out of business. And there are other ways to make up the shortfall such as a private endowment funded by the millionaires and billionaires who believe it's an important cause.

If AM radio in cars is mandated, there's no way out. Auto manufacturers will be forced to include it. The cost might be minimal but still it defies the principle of a free market because there's no way for individuals to intervene.

Defunding PBS and dropping the AM mandate would not mean the end of civilization, but it would allow the Government to focus on more important issues.

Defunding the CPB would probably cause a lot of smaller public radio stations -- especially rural networked ones, and small college public stations that may get CPB funding -- to go off the air. As I mentioned, the local NPR station (which gets high ratings) had to cut staff because the increase in costs was greater than the increase in revenue (and they did have an increase in revenue). You cut out CPB funding, that shortfall will be greater. For a station like KUOW, that probably doesn't mean their ability to stay on the air is affected. For a smaller station, however, it could be problematic.

I live in a metro with higher than standard family incomes. Not every sector in the US has that situation, and if a public radio station is in a poorer area, if you cut off CPB funding, that station will probably be sold to EMF or just go off the air.

So the two instances -- mandates, and government cuts in funding -- are related, in the sense that they affect the public's ability to access programming on the public airwaves. With one, the automakers can remove access to AM stations, which means not just conservative talkers get reduced listening, but ethnic stations (including African American stations) also lose audience. With the other, public stations, which may depend on roughly 10% of their funding from CPB, could go off the air. I know that when I worked at a public radio station, CPB funding was important. And it was a small urban public station.

I agree with you that defunding CPB/NPR and dropping the AM mandate wouldn't mean the end of civilization. I sort of doubt that government would be focusing on more important issues, at least presently, however.

 

[CTListener]

I wonder how country music fans on the Massachusetts island of Nantucket would feel about WNCK going under. "Quahog Country" is a small public radio station with a mainstream hit country format that must attract a lot of listeners who normally would come nowhere near a CPB-funded station.

 

[ajaynejr]

Wouldn't it be more feasible to have an initiative where the FCC manages a streaming infrastructure per service area and requires all licensed users to transmit via that route and generate a platform compatible with all consumer devices? The cost would be based on the licenses for those frequencies.

Transmitting via that route or platform should be voluntary on the part of broadcasters. The FCC could reserve the right to intercept any over the air broadcast and add it to such a streaming architecture or platform for retransmission in its entirety. Anyone aggrieved by the latter rebroadcasting action would not be able to look to the individual originating stations for redress.

 

[Y2kTheNewOldies]

FCC Chair Brendan Carr Supports AM Radio Mandate, Calls It ‘Vital’ Technology.

FCC Chair Brendan Carr voiced his support for efforts underway in Congress to require carmakers to keep AM radio in vehicle dashboards, calling the service “vital” during a Wednesday appearance

www.insideradio.com

Here is the FCC's response to AM Radio during a hearing in the US House.

Carr’s support came at the urging of Rep. Mark Alford (R-MO), a former television news anchor who is a cosponsor of the AM Radio for Every Vehicle Act. “It’s very important, especially in rural areas,” said Alford, who also noted the Kansas City-built Ford F-150 truck still has AM.

Carr agreed that AM remains a “vital communications technology” and called himself a “big supporter” of the legislation. “I think it would be important to get that across the finish line and into law,” he said.


The AM Radio For Every Vehicle Act (H.R.979/S. 315) currently has the support of 177 House members and 61 Senators — with Sen. Andy Kim (D-NJ) adding his name to the list this week.

The long-term fate of AM radio came amid questions about Carr’s plans to modernize the FCC’s media ownership rules. Carr testified that his approach is to take some time to craft revisions that “empower” local broadcasters who embrace localism as the FCC takes on “outdated” rules.