a big market with no emf

[Deleted member 108832]

I'm still surprised that radio stations still play that song as is, with the constant "WTF" sample, & no one getting fined for decades.

ZZ Top's "Legs" is another example of this, Mo. Been saying "shit I've got to have her" unedited for as long as I can remember.

 

[lanceventa]

To clarify some points made:

I'm going to guess the Orlando stations do not subscribe to those markets. But if that's the reason, then why does WPOZ subscribe?

There are different rules for PPM and diary and commercial/non-commercial

It seems WPOZ no longer has its encoder working. So that's why 100,000-watt WPOZ is #1 in Daytona and unlisted in Orlando.

WPOZ cancelled its PPM contract in 2016 and stopped encoding completely in protest of Nielsen and the noise artifacts created by Telos' Voltaire.

Right, but if Magic 1077 was historically a 5 share and then disappeared when the subscriber rule took place, it clearly is bringing in more than a 0.1 actual rating

Magic 107.7 has plenty of listeners in Daytona Beach. But iHeartMedia is not selling local ads there so it doesn't care what they are so no need to subscribe.

For those that brought up Riverside/San Bernardino, only Mereulo, Univision, and KBIG pay to appear in those so that's why they're the only ones listed. Hell a Los Angeles station was also technically #2 in another nearby market last month, but it'll never be seen publicly because it doesn't make them additional money.

 

[davideduardo]

First, WPOZ is a subscriber in those markets. That's the only reason they show in those market reports. I don't know why they choose not to encode, but I'm guessing they don't want the light (no pun intended) to be shown on their performance in Orlando.

Years ago, they stated that they thought the encoding caused audio "distortion" in the analog signal and they neither needed nor wanted the encoding anyway.

 

[vw86]

First, WPOZ is a subscriber in those markets. That's the only reason they show in those market reports.

Does WPOZ actually subscribe to the neighboring markets? Or do they show up because they're non-commercial?

 

[davideduardo]

Does WPOZ actually subscribe to the neighboring markets? Or do they show up because they're non-commercial?

The smaller surrounding markets are diary markets, not requiring that they encode.

 

[vw86]

Right. But is WPOZ subscribing to those markets? Or do they show up because they're a non-commercial and they don't need to subscribe to show up if they meet the minimum reporting standard of a 0.1 rating?

 

[davideduardo]

WPOZ cancelled its PPM contract in 2016 and stopped encoding completely in protest of Nielsen and the noise artifacts created by Telos' Voltaire.

But they were not required to install the Telos device. And had they installed it, they did not have to set it to "11".

Magic 107.7 has plenty of listeners in Daytona Beach. But iHeartMedia is not selling local ads there so it doesn't care what they are so no need to subscribe.

For those that brought up Riverside/San Bernardino, only Mereulo, Univision, and KBIG pay to appear in those so that's why they're the only ones listed. Hell a Los Angeles station was also technically #2 in another nearby market last month, but it'll never be seen publicly because it doesn't make them additional money.

The reason is that those smaller markets can be bought at much lower rates using local stations for an ad campaign. Advertisers don't combine LA with the IE for buys in radio, so they don't even consider the LA stations on an Inland Empire buy.

 

[Homer Simpson]

WPOZ subscribes to those diary markets which is the only reason they show up. They are not eligible to show up in "adjacent markets" if they don't subscribe to their home market. Also the rules aren't different for PPM, Continuous Diary Markets (12 books a year) or Diary (2 books a year). Non commercial and commercial stations have the exact same reporting rules.

 

[davideduardo]

WPOZ subscribes to those diary markets which is the only reason they show up. They are not eligible to show up in "adjacent markets" if they don't subscribe to their home market. Also the rules aren't different for PPM, Continuous Diary Markets (12 books a year) or Diary (2 books a year). Non commercial and commercial stations have the exact same reporting rules.

Stations with over a 0.1 rating show in all book, I believe.

Depending on the market, a 0.1 rating would be somewhere between a 1.8 and 2.2 share.

 

[vw86]

If that were the case, wouldn't the example of Magic 1077 getting a 5+ share in the Daytona Beach market before abruptly being dropped from the listings show that since they aren't subscribed they won't show up no matter what?

I know non-commercials are exempt from the new subscription rules, which is why I thought maybe WPOZ could still show up in neighboring diary markets even without subscribing.

 

[DJ Mo]

Stations with over a 0.1 rating show in all book, I believe.

Depending on the market, a 0.1 rating would be somewhere between a 1.8 and 2.2 share.

If anyone wants to pull ratings that I personally ever did, the only station I was on that's subscribed (& still subscribes) was WYKS Kiss 105.3 in Gainesville. I was on their mix show Sunday nights 8pm-midnight from 2006-2011. Not sure if you can pull data from that particular daypart from way back then. Those guys told me that they had "monster ratings" for that particular mix show.
WPRK used to encode for a bit a few years ago, before we got our current engineer, who is the same one who does WPOZ, which is why that piece of Nielsen PPM encoder technology is sitting inside our studio without power. I would sure love to turn that thing on, as it is within my reach inside the studio, but I want to keep my volunteer unpaid "dream job". It's taken me a lot of willpower not to push that power button on that thing every week. 😅 Not sure if any of you can pull any WPRK data from my Friday 5-7pm time slot in the past decade or so. Someone shared a diary rating with me right around the time before we went from diary to PPM, & said my show in particular "registered", so I'm going with that.
I was also on-air at WXXL 106.7's "Johnny's House" as "Dr. No" the intern from January-April 2014. I didn't do much talking, but if you were here, you probably heard about "Dr. No's First Kiss", forever on YouTube. That's also me, but a very shy reserved version of me. I've opened up a lot since. The PD back then showed me the rating during my daypart when I asked him to see how my show is doing in ratings while I was in his office. At least I know my show on WPRK registers in the PPM world, if we were PPM rated in 2014.

 

[davideduardo]

WPRK used to encode for a bit a few years ago, before we got our current engineer, who is the same one who does WPOZ, which is why that piece of Nielsen PPM encoder technology is sitting inside our studio without power. I would sure love to turn that thing on, as it is within my reach inside the studio, but I want to keep my volunteer unpaid "dream job". It's taken me a lot of willpower not to push that power button on that thing every week. 😅

did you ever hear why that engineer and WPOZ did not wish to encode? The reports in the industry trades indicated that they believed that the encoding caused listener, fatigue and audio degradation. However, most of us believe that any PPM induced degradation comes from third-party processing and not from the encoder itself.

I would love to hear any comments you might have about that whole situation!

 

[vw86]

I was on their mix show Sunday nights 8pm-midnight from 2006-2011. Not sure if you can pull data from that particular daypart from way back then. Those guys told me that they had "monster ratings" for that particular mix show.

I've heard your show and it's exceptionally good, so please don't take offense as my question is a broad one.

I'm curious what "monster ratings" would be for a Sunday 8p-12a timeslot. I would imagine even a top rated station could have moments during the early and late weekend hours, especially Sunday, where there would be zero meters registering any exposure. Especially if even during peak weekday AM & PM drive hours the number of meters is typically in the single digits (from what I've heard).

For something like a specialty show in an off peak time, whether it's a locally produced mix show or the decision to run something like AT40 or Flashback on a Sunday morning or evening, do 2-3 meter hits versus zero or one measure success? Or are they also looking at things like streaming numbers when measuring success on an off-peak daypart?

 

[DJ Mo]

did you ever hear why that engineer and WPOZ did not wish to encode? The reports in the industry trades indicated that they believed that the encoding caused listener, fatigue and audio degradation. However, most of us believe that any PPM induced degradation comes from third-party processing and not from the encoder itself.

I would love to hear any comments you might have about that hole situation!

ll I got from the engineer & our station manager are the exact reasons that you mentioned. I haven't done the comparison, but I do trust their decision. My ears can tell the slightest of difference in frequencies, even the ones just outside normal human hearing. So, if I were to be presented 2 samples of the exact same audio, but with & without the encoder, I might be able to point out the difference. I used to be an Audio Technician. One has to have this hereditary or acquired skill to do this, which the majority of humans do not.

I've heard your show and it's exceptionally good, so please don't take offense as my question is a broad one.

I'm curious what "monster ratings" would be for a Sunday 8p-12a timeslot.

For something like a specialty show in an off peak time, whether it's a locally produced mix show or the decision to run something like AT40 or Flashback on a Sunday morning or evening, do 2-3 meter hits versus zero or one measure success? Or are they also looking at things like streaming numbers when measuring success on an off-peak daypart?

I'm just quoting with what every person at the WYKS building said. They claim "The Perimeter" to be "the top-rated Sunday night show with monster ratings" while I was doing it. The only reason the show went away, is because the guy hosting it simply stopped doing it. Such a shame. I tried bringing it back, but with no success.

 

[The New Chico]

But they were not required to install the Telos device. And had they installed it, they did not have to set it to "11".

So us old folks with certain types of hearing aids sure can hear the encoding. And some stations DO turn it up to 11 it seems. Others less so. I cannot hear much if any artifacts on AM, with the exception of one AM HD station years ago. It is a very distinctive sound if you have hearing aids, and not a pleasant one at all.

 

[davideduardo]

So us old folks with certain types of hearing aids sure can hear the encoding. And some stations DO turn it up to 11 it seems. Others less so. I cannot hear much if any artifacts on AM, with the exception of one AM HD station years ago. It is a very distinctive sound if you have hearing aids, and not a pleasant one at all.

The encoding occurs in one of a number of predefined frequencies that are all able to be broadcast by both AM and FM stations. It is not in the over 10 kHz range, like old vacuum tube TV used to be audible for those with superior hearing.

And not all stations even have the Telos "encoding enhancement" device. It does not need to be installed and used.

 

[Homer Simpson]

WPOZ is probably the only station "holding out" on encoding using the excuse of audio degradation (or whatever you want to claim). Bottom line it's probably two reasons: First, they were encoding and stopped when they suddenly weren't number one consistantly in the market. Easier to blame encoding than evaluate how your listeners are actually relating to you. Second, they don't need the numbers anyway. They can measure their listeners in an elementary, simplistic manor by looking at the diary markets they have signals in. Those markets, though, aren't Orlando. Orlando is unique (like every market is unique) and people in Gainesville or Melbourne or Daytona Beach aren't the same as Orlando in every possible measure. Shame because the station is different and likely still dominates but we'll never know. I'm sure the only reason EMF won't enter the market is because of WPOZ's relationship with Orlando.

 

[The New Chico]

The encoding occurs in one of a number of predefined frequencies that are all able to be broadcast by both AM and FM stations. It is not in the over 10 kHz range, like old vacuum tube TV used to be audible for those with superior hearing.

And not all stations even have the Telos "encoding enhancement" device. It does not need to be installed and used.

Oh I absolutely understand, David. My hearing aids use some selective bandwidths that are amplified more than others, and unfortuantely it seems to line up pretty well with one or more that Telos uses. I do not hear the sound at all on some stations, and maybe a tiny bit on others. It was fiarly awful on 107.7 Seattle (Audacy) for a while, but has gottten a bit quieter. Still there though. Also heard (to a lesser extent) on 94.1 Seattle and 99.9 Seattle.

It may be that others would hear the encoding artifacts on other stations, but my aids don't pick up whatever frequencies that Telos is using in those stations- I don't know. I do not hear these artifacts on any HD2 or HD3 outputs.

As a kid in the 60s, I would walk into a Sears or K-Mart TV department and be bombarded by the 19kHz pilots that were coming through. Once I got to my 20s, I had lost that "ability." I could not hear that sound on one individual TV, but I assume there was enough filter pass-though that on 30 sets in a showroom it was enough noise to make me a little nuts.

 

[vw86]

I'm sure that's a quirk. Someone made a mistake. KBIG has a great signal. But so do KOST, KRRL and KFI, all iHeart stations easily heard in Riverside-San Bernardino.

Somebody at Nielsen accidentally included KBIG in the ratings that are made public.

After showing up consistently since the current subscriber rules took effect, KBIG drops from a 4.7 to gone in the Riverside/San Bernardino February book. Which means 1) they stopped subscribing and 2) even an actual rating of 0.1 or higher for a non subscribing station does not get them in the public 6+ numbers.

 

[davideduardo]

Oh I absolutely understand, David. My hearing aids use some selective bandwidths that are amplified more than others, and unfortuantely it seems to line up pretty well with one or more that Telos uses. I do not hear the sound at all on some stations, and maybe a tiny bit on others.

Remember, the Telos gear does not do any encoding. All it does is reinforce the audio in the tiny frequency bands where the Nielsen device does the encoding. The Telos unit just gives the Nielsen encoder more chances to encode.