Buffalo Cumulus was planning to shut down Talk 1270 last Friday

[davideduardo]

David, I beg to differ. I remember hearing radio soaps in the '50's. Since I was just born in the early part of that decade it's not likely I would remember these programs if they didn't extend into at least the late '50's. I also remember kid shows with ventriloquist Paul Winchell.

A few soaps kept on up till the mid-50's, and those were daytime. But most died as their sponsors moved to TV. Remember, the 30's and 40's network model was based on each show having a single sponsor; few were "sustaining" and open to multiple sponsors.

The daytime soaps lasted the longest, as they were the least affected by the shiny new network TV night shows.

WKBW went Top 40 July 4, 1958, predecessor WBNY went to the format in 1957 and WQAM Miami went top 40 in 1956.

WQAM was, I believe, the next to the last addition to the Storz group that included Minneapolis, New Orleans, Kansas City and Oklahoma City and St. Louis. By then, the Omaha daytimer which "went Top 40" in 1961 had been sold.

 

[davideduardo]

You are correct. Buffalo was a much bigger city in those days, and got into Rock & Roll radio and Top 40 very early in the game:

WKBW-AM History | Buffalo Broadcasters Association

It was not "bigger". It just has not grown the way other markets have, so it lost ranking.

Population

The market peaked in the 1970's and has been in decline since then. But up to then, it was growing every decade going back to 1810 (when they didn't have radios and there was nothing else to do at night!)

 

[JJSPC]

Same with Milwaukee. Used to be Market #39 in the 80's, now it's 44.

 

[Buddy Shula]

No, we can discern the 12+ (diary) or 6+ (PPM) ratings. Those are given away for free because they are valueless

Two stations with at peak a 12+ 15 share in a market with 10 or more viable FM stations that outperform in the "sales demos" astoundingly.

We don't see success. We see a gradual decline as AM listeners age out.

In the sales demos of 18-49 and 25-54 and their subsets, the AMs only have a couple of share points.

Neither is in the top 10 in the age groups that advertisers who use ratings buy.

Again, none of those stations does well in 25-54. KFI is around 20th in that demo, just to give one example.

I am not sure what your obsession with 18-49 and 25-54 is all about. I deal with agencies all the time (and I own one) and they are not targeting 25-54 with radio. It has now moved to 35-64. Baby Boomers hold the most wealth in this country by far. Of course they are all going to pass away, everything in the world changes daily, but for right now the older demos are the ones to target with radio, especially in Buffalo. See below

Wealthiest Generation: Baby Boomers​

According to the Federal Reserve data, baby boomers – people born between the 1946 and 1964– win the top spot for the wealthiest generation in the U.S. In aggregate, their total net worth is $78.55 trillion.
If you're in this age group, you may have purchased a home and paid off your mortgage, received an inheritance from relatives and saved money early and consistently.

Do you REALLY want to target a 25-year-old with no money instead of THIS demo? It has been a consistent outdated theme on this board that every company wants to target younger people, and AM radio is worthless. That is so wrong on both fronts.

Have you seen the 35+ ratings for WECK, WBEN and WGR?? I know, I know.....WECK has 3 FM translators. So, what is the excuse for WBEN and WGR? Do you think for a moment that the listener may want CONTENT they provide? Perhaps that is the reason listeners go to these stations. Just a thought.

I wish one of you could grab a Miller-Cap for Buffalo. These AM stations you say are useless are currently out-billing, yes, out-billing several big FM stations locally. I am talking ALL THREE stations mentioned.

I wish someone on this board would use some commonsense facts, instead of speculation. It is so disappointing that everyone focuses on what "can't" be done, instead of focusing on what "can" be done.

Like it or not, I am not a speculator. I own BIG WECK, for the past EIGHT years. I know what's going on. I'm here to tell you that for the time being, these AM stations you're talking about are revenue cash cows. If you control your expenses and have a sales staff that "gets it", you're going to make a lot of money.

Please do not talk to me like I do not know what I am doing. You dissect every sentence I write. I could literally write "Radio Exists" and you would have a rebuttal to it.

I know you have a great career in radio. I respect that. However, I do as well. I am not subservient to you. I built WECK from the ground up in spite of every other media platform vying for the audio ear

WECK is a 1KW station, but it may as well be a 5KW station, because the tower and transmitter is in our backyard, so every ounce of wattage is going into the Buffalo metro. WECK performs in ratings, besting many times, in some cases all the time WBUF, WEDG, WLKK, WBFO, WTSS (when it was star), WGR. That's fact. Look up the ratings. So please stop ragging on AM radio, when you should be ragging on the poor job these FM stations are doing, and from a revenue standpoint, go take a look at Miller-Caps and you will discern that WECK is about the #7 biller in the market.

Thank you for letting me point this out.

 

[TheBigA]

Baby Boomers hold the most wealth in this country by far.

Absolutely. They hold the most wealth because they don't spend anything, at least compared to people in their 30s and 40s. That's why the current administration wants to tax consumption rather than income.

The wealthiest generation didn't get that way by listening to advertising. They aren't free spenders. You can see how boomers feel about commercials by reading Radio Discussions. They hate commercials. They will gladly pay money (which as you say they have) in order to avoid commercials. So they pay for Sirius and pay for music services. All to avoid commercials. Yes you're making money in Buffalo, but not every place is like Buffalo.

 

[CentralFL]

Actually, the radio soaps were mostly gone by the early 50’s. The few remaining had lower and lower numbers. Music radio began when the AFM lost its control of recorded music; the first top 40 was in 1961.

Not an American station but BBC Radio 4 still runs "The Archers" it is a radio soap opera and the oldest soap in the world.

 

[Buddy Shula]

Absolutely. They hold the most wealth because they don't spend anything, at least compared to people in their 30s and 40s. That's why the current administration wants to tax consumption rather than income.

The wealthiest generation didn't get that way by listening to advertising. They aren't free spenders. You can see how boomers feel about commercials by reading Radio Discussions. They hate commercials. They will gladly pay money (which as you say they have) in order to avoid commercials. So they pay for Sirius and pay for music services. All to avoid commercials. Yes you're making money in Buffalo, but not every place is like Buffalo.

Yes, you know everything. They don't spend. REALLY? Why don't you do your qualitative research. Have you ever been on a cruise ship and see who goes on them? What about a casino? What about expensive cars? What about houses, usually in 2 locations? They spend their money! Again, all assumptions you are making. Ask me. I know the facts on what is going on, and until you are in my chair at my station, your assumptions are worthless, and wrong. And yes, I am talking about the Buffalo market only. Anywhere else, I could care less about. Except Key West

 

[TheBigA]

Yes, you know everything. They don't spend. REALLY?

As I said, compared to younger people with kids. The grocery bill of a boomer is a fraction of a family of five. A lot of the things you list don't advertise on the radio. You're a very lucky guy because you're an established salesman. Boomers are smart. They're not going to buy a life insurance policy or an annuity based on a :30 radio spot. You know that. That's why you host a long-form informercial show that gives the advertisers more time to explain what they're selling. That's why you break format. Right?

 

[K.M. Richards]

I'd like to chime in with my own observations about radio advertising targeted at Boomers.

As a lot of people here know, I program KRKE in Albuquerque for Don Davis, with my format The Eighties Channel™. Don has given me complete control of programming and I have remote access to the station computers so not only can I upload the music logs, I can edit them in real time on the automation. Don says it's the easiest ad pitch he's ever had. We have a couple of the local casinos as regular advertisers, alongside several plumbing and heating companies (as well as other home repair/improvement clients), local restaurants, and even some B2B clients. Two clients who have been on KRKE without interruption, beginning not long after I installed the format in October 2022, are a landscaping business and a local mechanic.

Even if Big A is right about Boomers "not spending money" if you give them something they need to spend money on they will. That appears to be what Buddy Shula is saying, and WECK is proof. KRKE is more proof.

 

[TheBigA]

Even if Big A is right about Boomers "not spending money" if you give them something they need to spend money on they will.

I think my point isn't whether or not they spend money. That doesn't matter. It's whether or not they're persuaded to do so by advertising.

 

[tbolt909]

I think my point isn't whether or not they spend money. It's whether or not they're persuaded to do so by advertising.

People like David have said in numerous threads all over this site (many markets), that it's "too hard". Boomers don't respond to Radio ads and it's too expensive to get the sale.
That's why you see hardly any Radio programming aimed at older demos. The few independent operators that can successfully serve older demographics are the outliers...

 

[TheBigA]

That's why you see hardly any Radio programming aimed at older demos.

Who do you think listens to WBEN?

 

[tbolt909]

Who do you think listens to WBEN?

Almost exclusively 55 and over. They are an outlier in a market with older demographics. How many of these formats in other markets are still viable?

If there is no sales issue with agencies, then there should be a hell of a lot more Oldies stations and Woodstock Era Rock stations on major FM signals all over the country...

 

[TheBigA]

Almost exclusively 55 and over. They are an outlier in a market with older demographics. How many of these formats in other markets are still viable?

Shall we start with WABC in New York? How about KFI in Los Angeles? WBBM in Chicago. KCBS in San Francisco.

 

[davideduardo]

I am not sure what your obsession with 18-49 and 25-54 is all about. I deal with agencies all the time (and I own one) and they are not targeting 25-54 with radio. It has now moved to 35-64.

18-49 is the core target demo for both Black and Hispanic media buys. 25-54 is the core for all others. There is a lot of radio being pitched against 35-64 because the 18-34 is gone, but there are few agency buys that come out on the "ups" lists that include 55-64.d

Baby Boomers hold the most wealth in this country by far.

But the saved for retirement, not for raising a family now that they are grown.

Of course they are all going to pass away, everything in the world changes daily, but for right now the older demos are the ones to target with radio, especially in Buffalo. See below

CBS TV has spent nearly two decades trying to get TV buys away from 18-49. They have teamed up with agencies to pitch at the highest levels at major corporations. They have not gotten anywhere.

Have you seen the 35+ ratings for WECK, WBEN and WGR?? I know, I know.....WECK has 3 FM translators. So, what is the excuse for WBEN and WGR? Do you think for a moment that the listener may want CONTENT they provide? Perhaps that is the reason listeners go to these stations. Just a thought.​

Nobody is disputing that there are stations targeting 45+ or even 55 and over. There is enough business to sustain one or two of those, but it takes a rather dedicated effort.

I wish one of you could grab a Miller-Cap for Buffalo. These AM stations you say are useless are currently out-billing, yes, out-billing several big FM stations locally. I am talking ALL THREE stations mentioned.

They have a lot of local business and... note this... run quite a few more minutes of commercials an hour than the younger targeted station. And Buffalo is an old no-growth market with traditional advertisers. There are a few of those "Rust Belt" markets where the average age is significantly over the national average where advertisers have to sell to whoever is still there.

I wish someone on this board would use some commonsense facts, instead of speculation. It is so disappointing that everyone focuses on what "can't" be done, instead of focusing on what "can" be done.

You do it because you are Buddy Shula. There are few like you that also have other media like outdoor, an agency, and decades of experience in the same market. It's not easy, and you have my respect for making it work.

Please do not talk to me like I do not know what I am doing. You dissect every sentence I write. I could literally write "Radio Exists" and you would have a rebuttal to it.

And you are unique. There are few like you that can make smaller market stations still work as independents. The only other that comes to mind is Dean Sorensen in the Dakotas and he is near full retirement. the Cary Simpsons of the radio world are mostly gone.

I know you have a great career in radio. I respect that. However, I do as well. I am not subservient to you. I built WECK from the ground up in spite of every other media platform vying for the audio ear

And I did the same. I was told that my first station would fail, as it was not right for the market. It didn't fail, so I can relate to your story.

WECK is a 1KW station, but it may as well be a 5KW station, because the tower and transmitter is in our backyard, so every ounce of wattage is going into the Buffalo metro.

There is no way to make 1 kw high on the dial be a viable facility. You have translators and I doubt you'd succeed without them. Few people want to listen to AM any longer; they only do if there is no choice.

WECK performs in ratings, besting many times, in some cases all the time WBUF, WEDG, WLKK, WBFO, WTSS (when it was star), WGR. That's fact. Look up the ratings. So please stop ragging on AM radio, when you should be ragging on the poor job these FM stations are doing, and from a revenue standpoint, go take a look at Miller-Caps and you will discern that WECK is about the #7 biller in the market.

You have multiple translators. I'll bet you could turn the AM off if the FCC allowed it and continue to enjoy the same success.

 

[Buddy Shula]

Yes, you know everything. They don't spend. REALLY? Why don't you do your qualitative research. Again, all assumptions you are making. Ask me. I know the facts on what is going on. And yes, I am talking about Buffalo. Anywhere else, I could care less about. Except Key West

18-49 is the core target demo for both Black and Hispanic media buys. 25-54 is the core for all others. There is a lot of radio being pitched against 35-64 because the 18-34 is gone, but there are few agency buys that come out on the "ups" lists that include 55-64.d

But the saved for retirement, not for raising a family now that they are grown.

CBS TV has spent nearly two decades trying to get TV buys away from 18-49. They have teamed up with agencies to pitch at the highest levels at major corporations. They have not gotten anywhere.

Nobody is disputing that there are stations targeting 45+ or even 55 and over. There is enough business to sustain one or two of those, but it takes a rather dedicated effort.

They have a lot of local business and... note this... run quite a few more minutes of commercials an hour than the younger targeted station. And Buffalo is an old no-growth market with traditional advertisers. There are a few of those "Rust Belt" markets where the average age is significantly over the national average where advertisers have to sell to whoever is still there.

You do it because you are Buddy Shula. There are few like you that also have other media like outdoor, an agency, and decades of experience in the same market. It's not easy, and you have my respect for making it work.

And you are unique. There are few like you that can make smaller market stations still work as independents. The only other that comes to mind is Dean Sorensen in the Dakotas and he is near full retirement. the Cary Simpsons of the radio world are mostly gone.

And I did the same. I was told that my first station would fail, as it was not right for the market. It didn't fail, so I can relate to your story.

There is no way to make 1 kw high on the dial be a viable facility. You have translators and I doubt you'd succeed without them. Few people want to listen to AM any longer; they only do if there is no choice.

You have multiple translators. I'll bet you could turn the AM off if the FCC allowed it and continue to enjoy the same success.

I enjoy this conversation, as I really enjoy talking to people as passionate about radio as me.

I have to correct you on a few fronts. Buffalo is not a smaller market. It is over a million person market.

Secondly, you keep insisting that the success of WECK is because of the translators. Our AM actually sounds better than the FM’s. I take advantage of the AM dial in Buffalo, and I thank Audacy for helping me do that, especially with WGR-AM.

David, in Buffalo, the population is highly aware of the AM dial. In any other market, perhaps not so much, but in Buffalo, everyone knows it. Although I cannot prove it with WECK because it does have the FM’S , but I will show you another way I’ll prove it over the next few weeks, perhaps this week.

You will see that I can turn a pure AM into a top station in Buffalo very soon.

 

[Buddy Shula]

Yes, you know everything. They don't spend. REALLY? Why don't you do your qualitative research. Again, all assumptions you are making. Ask me. I know the facts on what is going on. And yes, I am talking about Buffalo. Anywhere else, I could care less about. Except Key West

18-49 is the core target demo for both Black and Hispanic media buys. 25-54 is the core for all others. There is a lot of radio being pitched against 35-64 because the 18-34 is gone, but there are few agency buys that come out on the "ups" lists that include 55-64.d

But the saved for retirement, not for raising a family now that they are grown.

CBS TV has spent nearly two decades trying to get TV buys away from 18-49. They have teamed up with agencies to pitch at the highest levels at major corporations. They have not gotten anywhere.

Nobody is disputing that there are stations targeting 45+ or even 55 and over. There is enough business to sustain one or two of those, but it takes a rather dedicated effort.

They have a lot of local business and... note this... run quite a few more minutes of commercials an hour than the younger targeted station. And Buffalo is an old no-growth market with traditional advertisers. There are a few of those "Rust Belt" markets where the average age is significantly over the national average where advertisers have to sell to whoever is still there.

You do it because you are Buddy Shula. There are few like you that also have other media like outdoor, an agency, and decades of experience in the same market. It's not easy, and you have my respect for making it work.

And you are unique. There are few like you that can make smaller market stations still work as independents. The only other that comes to mind is Dean Sorensen in the Dakotas and he is near full retirement. the Cary Simpsons of the radio world are mostly gone.

And I did the same. I was told that my first station would fail, as it was not right for the market. It didn't fail, so I can relate to your story.

There is no way to make 1 kw high on the dial be a viable facility. You have translators and I doubt you'd succeed without them. Few people want to listen to AM any longer; they only do if there is no choice.

You have multiple translators. I'll bet you could turn the AM off if the FCC allowed it and continue to enjoy the same success.

I enjoy this conversation, as I really enjoy talking to people as passionate about radio as me.

I have to correct you on a few fronts. Buffalo is not a smaller market. It is over a million person market.

Secondly, you keep insisting that the success of WECK is because of the translators. Our AM actually sounds better than the FM’s. I take advantage of the AM dial in Buffalo, and I thank Audacy for helping me do that, especially with WGR-AM.

David, in Buffalo, the population is highly aware of the AM dial. In any other market, perhaps not so much, but in Buffalo, everyone knows it. Although I cannot prove it with WECK because it does have the FM’S , but I will show you another way I’ll prove it over the next few weeks, perhaps this week.

You will see that I can turn a pure AM into a top station in Buffalo very soon.

 

[davideduardo]

I enjoy this conversation, as I really enjoy talking to people as passionate about radio as me.

Thanks. Ditto.

I have to correct you on a few fronts. Buffalo is not a smaller market. It is over a million person market.

It's not in the top 50. When "we" decided to evaluate markets and properties at Univision some years back, the non-PPM markets were considered too "small". Small markets tend to require more management time, too, for obvious reasons.

Secondly, you keep insisting that the success of WECK is because of the translators. Our AM actually sounds better than the FM’s. I take advantage of the AM dial in Buffalo, and I thank Audacy for helping me do that, especially with WGR-AM.

Have your ears checked. On the average consumer radio, AM sounds pretty awful. About 25 years ago, I listened to an NAB tech seminar where Bob Orban showed that consumer radios mostly fell off dramatically between 5khz and 6khz.

David, in Buffalo, the population is highly aware of the AM dial. In any other market, perhaps not so much, but in Buffalo, everyone knows it.

Not everyone. Maybe those over 40 or so. And maybe a few sports fans who have no choice.

You will see that I can turn a pure AM into a top station in Buffalo very soon.

But that is because of Buddy Shula. There are no clones out there.

I could go out and buy a similar set of AM / Translator facilities in a comparable market tomorrow if I wanted. I don't want to. I'd be going into a market where I did not have decades of experience and contacts and relationships and I'd lose lots of money trying to establish "cred" locally. Just not worth it. Instead, I can sit here with the music of Coachella thumping in the background and criticize you... for free!

 

[Buddy Shula]

When I figure out how to repost quotes on this board, then I will fire back

 

[DavidZ]

You will see that I can turn a pure AM into a top station in Buffalo very soon.

Did you just drop a big hint you’ll be the new owner of WHLD?