Big 98.1

[Theater of My Mind]

That means the music changes didn't help with the aging demo problem. If so, then the only solution is to keep cutting expenses, because income won't improve. In some markets, it's possible that the classic hits format itself will disappear if the music can't be adjusted to reach the sales demos.

The classic hits format will disappear, to be replaced by what? People who grew up embracing radio before streaming took over are getting older. People who grew up in the internet age don't even touch radio. So the remaining radio audience in the "sales demos" is getting smaller, that's all there is to it. There are still lots of loyal radio listeners left but they're all approaching...or already over...age 55, when they're treated as worthless.

Broadcasters can change the music or the format all they want, but unless they revolutionize things in ways not currently being tried, it won't change the age of radio listeners. So they keep laying off all the talent and doubling down on intolerably long sets of the lowest quality commercials, which makes the content exponentially worse, driving away everyone regardless of age.

IMO the business model has to change. Change to what, I don't know, but this obsession with a young audience doesn't have a future. They're not coming back to OTA radio, and they're not going to put up with the current commercial loads on streaming radio. Some of the biggest radio industry leaders are in their 60s and 70s, well out of the target demos themselves, and I think they're happy to ride this train to the end of the line and cash out when the time comes without too much concern for what comes after that.

 

[TheBigA]

The classic hits format will disappear, to be replaced by what?

You can see it in Philadelphia. Other formats are expanding into this space, so classic hits becomes extraneous. The audience either goes to adult hits or classic rock. The former classic hits audience might go to WSAN or a suburban AM that plays 60s/70s. But this kind of radio is aging out.

There are still lots of loyal radio listeners left but they're all approaching...or already over...age 55, when they're treated as worthless.

There has to be a way to monetize them. Advertisers are using other media (such as cable TV), or news/talk. They can subscribe to Sirius.

Audacy will turn 98.1 into WPHT-FM at some point. Or move the KYW simulcast to the better frequency.

IMO the business model has to change. Change to what, I don't know, but this obsession with a young audience doesn't have a future.

Once again, the "obsession" is coming from the advertisers. Audacy is already reaching 55+ with WPHT and KYW. They don't need another format to reach the same people. At some point FM will see music the way AM did.

Meanwhile the radio companies already know their future is in creating digital content and streaming. That train has already left. There's no law requiring them to continue owning broadcast radio stations.

 

[K.M. Richards]

I keep saying this, but few people listen ... and those that do, dismiss the idea as ridiculous.

But it is proven.

Going back to an 80s-based Classic Hits format is not dooming you to a Boomer-only audience. Younger listeners are, in increasing numbers, becoming dissatisfied with current and recent music, and they are embracing the 80s.

We are talking 25-34, and KRKE has roughly one-third of its audience in that demo playing nothing but that decade. (And -- hint, hint -- I syndicate the format.)

My main imaging guy, Gene Knight, who is a legend in his home market of San Diego, had his last full-time radio gig doing afternoons on Audacy's KXSN (Sunny 98.1*) and was startled to discover that a lot of contest winners and request makers were younger listeners. From his bio at my website:

Gene noticed that -- in his words -- "all the time we got winners and other listener responses at KXSN, from people who were born in the 80s. Like, they were just two years old when a lot of the songs that we played were currents. This happened so frequently, that I started asking, in a nice and curious way, why they liked our music. This response came back over and over again ... The 80s, that's when all the good music came out!"

For whatever reason (and I am thankful that this is the case, obviously), that decade has remained a core draw in Classic Hits. It is mass appeal and full of consensus favorites. And I predict that will be the case for many years going forward.

And I obviously think my format should be running on more stations.

* - The fact that WOGL is on the same frequency as KXSN should be some kind of sign from heaven, if anyone is paying attention. And they're even owned by the same company!

 

[TheBigA]

Going back to an 80s-based Classic Hits format is not dooming you to a Boomer-only audience. Younger listeners are, in increasing numbers, becoming dissatisfied with current and recent music, and they are embracing the 80s.

You're right about that, EXCEPT when some of those same songs are already being played on other stations, including one in your own cluster.

I should also point out that WOGL never stopped playing 80s. All they did was add some newer songs and some rhythmic songs. They dipped their toes into the 2000s. Not a bad thing. It's working just fine at KRTH. The listeners in Philadelphia aren't responding to the music the way they are in LA.

 

[K.M. Richards]

You're right about that, EXCEPT when some of those same songs are already being played on other stations, including one in your own cluster.

The operative phrase there is "some of those same songs". If the listeners are aware of all stations that are options to them, if one plays a song from a different decade that a listener doesn't like, they are more likely to migrate to the station that plays more of the songs from the decade that they do.

If a listener wants "all" they won't be happy with "some".

 

[TheBigA]

The operative phrase there is "some of those same songs". If the listeners are aware of all stations that are options to them, if one plays a song from a different decade that a listener doesn't like, they are more likely to migrate to the station that plays more of the songs from the decade that they do. If a listener wants "all" they won't be happy with "some".

Exactly. That's what I was saying when WOGL started playing SOME songs from the 2000s. If the bulk of the format is 80s, then that's their format.

What we know from Research Director is neither WOGL nor WBEN are doing well in 25-54. Only WMGK seems to benefit from what you're saying.

 

[K.M. Richards]

Exactly. That's what I was saying when WOGL started playing SOME songs from the 2000s. If the bulk of the format is 80s, then that's their format.

Yes, but then consider what I said. If a listener doesn't care for songs from the 2000s -- or even the 1990s -- than a station with more (or exclusively) 1980s becomes an attractive option.

What we know from Research Director is neither WOGL nor WBEN are doing well in 25-54. Only WMGK seems to benefit from what you're saying.

So it would be easy to theorize that WMGK is getting listeners from WOGL and WBEN based on what I suggest. If it can happen in Albuquerque, it can happen in Philadelphia.

 

[TheBigA]

If a listener doesn't care for songs from the 2000s -- or even the 1990s -- than a station with more (or exclusively) 1980s becomes an attractive option.

Which apparently is why they dropped a lot of those songs they played in May.

Earlier in this thread, I said that adding newer songs would hurt their 6+. I was right. It did. However it also didn't help with 25-54.

Meanwhile WMGK is the only classic station that is attracting younger demos. Likely because of their very popular morning show.

 

[K.M. Richards]

Earlier in this thread, I said that adding newer songs would hurt their 6+. I was right. It did. However it also didn't help with 25-54.

Isn't that a logical conclusion from what I said?

A, you and I have got to stop agreeing with each other using verbiage that sounds like we don't.

 

[AbrahamJSimpson]

I was at an event this week with a wide mix of ages, kids up to upper Gen X and the groups in between. Whoever had control of the spind system was playing a little of everything - talking Disney movie songs to “Hot to Go” and all over the place in between. The younger kids reacting positively and seemingly knowing a lot of 80s and some pre-80s songs (Ain’t No Mountain High Enough among them). The upper Xers jamming to Chapel Roan.

I’m not sure all the “old rules” apply. And that’s both a blessing and a curse, perhaps, when trying to figure out how to reach the consumers advertisers covet. But from that bizarre and wild thread about WOGL in the spring, the poster who was so adamant and rigid about the “rules” of the format is just wrong.

 

[CTListener]

You're confusing songs that people might tolerate or even enjoy at some sort of fun "event" with songs that people would seek out for everyday listening, as in radio. It's one thing to be 13 and dancing to "Shout" by the Isley Brothers at a post-bar mitzvah party. It's another to be 13 and want to hear "Shout" and similar songs from the dusty dawn of the rock era every freaking day on your radio.

 

[K.M. Richards]

You're confusing songs that people might tolerate or even enjoy at some sort of fun "event" to songs that people would seek out for everyday listening, as in radio. It's one thing to be 13 and dancing to "Shout" by the Isley Brothers at a post-bar mitzvah party. It's another to be 13 and want to hear "Shout" and similar songs from the dusty dawn of the rock era every freaking day on your radio.

That's a point many people get wrong. I've seen more than a few stations crash and burn because their PD placed too much weight on things like events, clubs, concert attendance, and (yes) YouTube video play counts.

There is a reason why those stations conducting active music research on an ongoing basis screen participants to ensure that they do enough radio listening to be indicative of the audience.

 

[AbrahamJSimpson]

You're confusing songs that people might tolerate or even enjoy at some sort of fun "event" with songs that people would seek out for everyday listening, as in radio. It's one thing to be 13 and dancing to "Shout" by the Isley Brothers at a post-bar mitzvah party. It's another to be 13 and want to hear "Shout" and similar songs from the dusty dawn of the rock era every freaking day on your radio.

At no point did I say build a playlist off it. The recognition and reaction is real and worth contemplating. The old rules of behavior can evolve as generations progress. Of course, do as much research as the budget allows. But keep your eyes open to the world and consider possibilities that you can then test in your sh-tload of research. 🙄

 

[davideduardo]

That's a point many people get wrong. I've seen more than a few stations crash and burn because their PD placed too much weight on things like events, clubs, concert attendance, and (yes) YouTube video play counts.

There is a reason why those stations conducting active music research on an ongoing basis screen participants to ensure that they do enough radio listening to be indicative of the audience.

That is a key point: good music research does not just pick "P1" listeners. It picks people who listen enough hours to their station's kind of music to be familiar with the songs and have a solid opinion. I'd rather have a heavy radio listener who is a P3 to my station but gives me 15 hours a week of listening than a P1 who uses little radio and only "tunes in" a few hours a week.

 

[vw86]

How many P3s are giving 15 hours to their non-P1 favorites?

 

[Radio Wreck]

Anecdotally speaking, based on conversations I’ve had with people in their 50’s who grew up in the area, WOGL’s biggest problem is that their core demo still thinks of it as Oldies 98 and there’s no escaping it until/unless they completely blow it up and do something entirely different.

 

[K.M. Richards]

Anecdotally speaking, based on conversations I’ve had with people in their 50’s who grew up in the area, WOGL’s biggest problem is that their core demo still thinks of it as Oldies 98 and there’s no escaping it until/unless they completely blow it up and do something entirely different.

THAT is a real problem. Listeners perceiving a station as what it used to be hinders sampling.

 

[MarkW]

I'll ask the obvious question:
In the early going since WOGL's musical shift, has AQH share for ages 25-54 and 35-54 stayed about the same, gotten better, or gotten worse?

I do think probably six months (or more) of data probably need to be collected before assessing with any degree of accuracy if the changes were wise or unwise.

As I've written elsewhere, I like the changes personally.

 

[TheBigA]

Anecdotally speaking, based on conversations I’ve had with people in their 50’s who grew up in the area, WOGL’s biggest problem is that their core demo still thinks of it as Oldies 98 and there’s no escaping it until/unless they completely blow it up and do something entirely different.

I think the research bears that out. They tried to rebrand the station, and it didn't work. They tried changing the music, and it didn't work. All of the changes other classic hits stations have done in other cities haven't worked in Philadelphia. This isn't a format problem, it's an audience perception problem in Philadelphia.

In the early going since WOGL's musical shift, has AQH share for ages 25-54 and 35-54 stayed about the same, gotten better, or gotten worse?

The only data we see is what's posted by Research Director. What we've seen consistently is that WOGL is not Top 5 in any of the measured demos. The only classic format the is Top 5 in any measured demo is WMGK. That's unusual when you compare that to KRTH is LA. There, KRTH is Top 5 in all measured demo. The stations are owned by the same company, and do the format in a similar way. But the results are better in LA,

 

[CTListener]

Who or what is "Research Director," and how does he/she/it get access to (and publish) details of the Nielsens that listeners don't and that the radio insiders on this board can't?