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November 2025 Bay Area Radio PPM Ratings

Better late than never, but here are the November 2025 San Francisco Radio PPM Ratings:


And the November 2025 San Jose Radio PPM Ratings:


Your thoughts or observations?
 
I've been saying this for a while: My view is most bay area mainstream music listeners have left broadcast radio.
Truth be told, one of the main reasons for this, I believe, is there is not much left on radio for mainstream listeners to listen to. And what there is sounds cheap and inferior to anything one can find online or elsewhere (KQED, KCBS and KDFC being the big exceptions, which reflects well on their respective #1, #2, and #3 postitions).

For example, I'm kind of amazed that KISQ's on air signal still sounds like its being fed by a low bitrate MP3 stream. There's no excuse for that coming from a station billing in the Top Five in a Top Ten market. I would try to listen, but I can't because the sound quality is so bad (for what it's worth, HD sounds better. Even the official online stream from iHeart sounds better!)

I'm somewhat impressed that they're #5 despite it. Is it because most people listen on HD and/or streaming? Or maybe it's that most people simply don't care about the lousy sound?

c
 
Truth be told, one of the main reasons for this, I believe, is there is not much left on radio for mainstream listeners to listen to.

Sure there is. But they want what they want when they want it, and on a digital device they own. There's no music radio could play, no hosts they could hire, and no changes they could make that would reverse something that began 30 years ago.
 
For example, I'm kind of amazed that KISQ's on air signal still sounds like its being fed by a low bitrate MP3 stream. There's no excuse for that coming from a station billing in the Top Five in a Top Ten market. I would try to listen, but I can't because the sound quality is so bad (for what it's worth, HD sounds better. Even the official online stream from iHeart sounds better!)
Probably a cranked-up Voltair.
I'm somewhat impressed that they're #5 despite it. Is it because most people listen on HD and/or streaming? Or maybe it's that most people simply don't care about the lousy sound?
To be honest, I think most people don't notice. Voltair muckery is quite noticeable to me, but I can tolerate data compression at bitrates at 64 kbps or more. My spouse can't tolerate any data compression of audio streams at all. So this varies among people.
Sure there is. But they want what they want when they want it, and on a digital device they own. There's no music radio could play, no hosts they could hire, and no changes they could make that would reverse something that began 30 years ago.
Sure, blame the listeners. Might as well fire all the program directors, then, because there's nothing they can do.

{sits back and watches the defensive sputtering start}
 
Sure, blame the listeners. Might as well fire all the program directors, then, because there's nothing they can do.

Go ahead. Tell me your plan that will get everyone to stop using their phones and instead listen to radio. I'm waiting.

Nobody's "blaming listeners." I'm just as guilty. I don't ever listen to the radio except when driving. There's nothing that would change that for me.
 
Sure, blame the listeners. Might as well fire all the program directors, then, because there's nothing they can do.

{sits back and watches the defensive sputtering start}

Mark, you and I agree most often, but all @TheBigA did there was accurately describe a shift in how Americans prefer to consume audio entertainment. That's not blaming them for that anymore than choosing planes over trains and trains over horses.
 
Mark, you and I agree most often, but all @TheBigA did there was accurately describe a shift in how Americans prefer to consume audio entertainment. That's not blaming them for that anymore than choosing planes over trains and trains over horses.

That's really how I see it. To me, it's not a programming problem. It's a technology problem, especially when you have an electronics industry that has really given up on radio. The way I see it, the radio industry is being constrained by its own technology. That's why my overall view is that radio needs to have a strong and multi-tiered digital strategy that combines streaming, podcasting, video, and on-demand access for its content. Real time, linear broadcasting is in decline, and there's no new format or new DJ that will change that.

For now, we program to the people who listen. They have their expectations, and we can satisfy them. But this idea that we can bring non-listeners back is fantasy. As Morgan Wallen says: they ain't comin' back.
 
Go ahead. Tell me your plan that will get everyone to stop using their phones and instead listen to radio. I'm waiting.
As I have said previously, I'm not here to take homework assignments.
Nobody's "blaming listeners." I'm just as guilty. I don't ever listen to the radio except when driving. There's nothing that would change that for me.
I took your statement to its logical conclusion.
Mark, you and I agree most often, but all @TheBigA did there was accurately describe a shift in how Americans prefer to consume audio entertainment. That's not blaming them for that anymore than choosing planes over trains and trains over horses.
How many times have I said "radio has a structural problem"? Quite a few. That's my IT-architect-way of saying that radio, being a linear, time-constrained medium, has great difficulty accommodating today's predominant consumer preferences. But statements such as "There's no music radio could play, no hosts they could hire, and no changes they could make that would reverse something that began 30 years ago" imply an absolute level of hopelessness. Might as well turn in the licenses if that's the case. (By the way, traditional TV has the same problem.)

It also begs the question: what could have been done 30 years ago? Radio may have a structural problem, but it also had a content problem. It clearly wasn't satisfying the desires of some potential consumers. Apparently there were more such consumers than radio professionals were willing to admit. Perhaps programming dogma that prevailed 30 years ago, or even farther back, was wrong. Maybe research was badly constructed and led to misleading conclusions. Sure, you can't turn back the clock. But people still in the business could at least try to learn what happened, instead of saying "gosh, darn, we can't do anything to get more listeners so we'll just cry in our soup until the sheriff's deputy comes with the eviction notice"...or instead of hoping for more consolidation which just papers over the problem. Is anyone figuring out what traditional radio can do that streaming (etc.) can't do? And, yes, reinvention is tough. I've seen two companies close-up that have tried to do that (in other fields). One has had a measure of success, though it's not as successful as it once was; the other failed miserably. But if you don't try, the result is pretty obvious.

And that concludes my pep talk for the day.
 
As I have said previously, I'm not here to take homework assignments.

Me either

Radio may have a structural problem, but it also had a content problem. It clearly wasn't satisfying the desires of some potential consumers.

The content problem was because of the structural problem. Due to physics, there aren't enough radio stations to satisfy all of the content interests of consumers. Plus the only revenue stream available is advertising, and advertising alienates the potential consumers. That's why I say the right direction is to redirect resources to the digital platform, where there are fewer structural limitations, and there are other options for revenue.

Perhaps programming dogma that prevailed 30 years ago, or even farther back, was wrong. Maybe research was badly constructed and led to misleading conclusions.

Once again, the programming dogma was built around the structure that existed at the time. You can own only so many radio stations per town, and you must maximize the value of each license. Plus the revenue problem I mentioned. Then, you have the great schism of 1988, when the music industry became foreign owned, and the new foreign owners didn't share the interest in radio that CBS (Columbia) and RCA had. Then in the 90s, you bring in the new technology that solves all of the structural problems that existed in broadcasting. Once you accept the fact that the internet is a better platform than broadcasting, then you can begin to see where the future is for radio. It's not in towers and transmitters.

Is anyone figuring out what traditional radio can do that streaming (etc.) can't do?

Funny question. That was a project I took on 20 years ago. The answer is NOTHING. The only benefit of traditional radio is the signal can go further than wifi. It's free (once you pay for the transmitter and antenna), and doesn't require a password or username. But it comes with the baggage of government regulation and scarcity of frequencies. Meanwhile there are lots of new advantages to streaming, including the fact that it's two way communications. So yes, we looked at it, and determined we were better going digital. Thanks for asking.

I just thought of one more thing traditional radio can do that streaming can't: It can avoid paying music royalties to labels and artists. At least for now. Plus streaming comes with a lot of music rules about how many songs by an artist or from an album you can play. No such rules for broadcasting. At least for now. But there were hearings on the hill today aimed at ending that advantage.

And, yes, reinvention is tough. I've seen two companies close-up that have tried to do that (in other fields). One has had a measure of success, though it's not as successful as it once was; the other failed miserably. But if you don't try, the result is pretty obvious.

You talk about reinvention, but then want radio to stick to what it did 50 years ago. That's not reinvention. Reinvention means investing in digital while you continue to maintain the traditional. We're taking the revenue (that's declining) from broadcasting, and investing it in the new platforms. That's what reinvention means to us. It doesn't mean hiring new DJs or coming up with new music formats. It may even mean getting into video.

The hardest thing is to be able to think about the future without being incumbered by the past. It's so much easier to stick with what's familiar.
 
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How many times have I said "radio has a structural problem"? Quite a few. That's my IT-architect-way of saying that radio, being a linear, time-constrained medium, has great difficulty accommodating today's predominant consumer preferences. But statements such as "There's no music radio could play, no hosts they could hire, and no changes they could make that would reverse something that began 30 years ago" imply an absolute level of hopelessness. Might as well turn in the licenses if that's the case. (By the way, traditional TV has the same problem.)

Maybe the issue is semantic. I suppose it's possible to partially reverse the attrition---but you'll never undo it. At best, maybe you get the people back who abandoned ship but didn't embrace a replacement for audio---haven't bonded with a new technology. And if you got them all back tomorrow, that number goes down every day, because they're all of a certain age, and they're gonna eventually die. Meantime, there's no steady stream of younger people taking their place because...why would they?

Fundamentally, the shift has been about technology. You're not going to abandon your DVR and go back to setting a VCR, and you're certainly not going to go back to "We have to be home and in front of the TV by 8 or we'll miss it." You're not going to throw away your cellphone, re-install a landline and keep a bunch of quarters in the cupholder of your car for payphones.


It also begs the question: what could have been done 30 years ago? Radio may have a structural problem, but it also had a content problem. It clearly wasn't satisfying the desires of some potential consumers. Apparently there were more such consumers than radio professionals were willing to admit. Perhaps programming dogma that prevailed 30 years ago, or even farther back, was wrong. Maybe research was badly constructed and led to misleading conclusions. Sure, you can't turn back the clock. But people still in the business could at least try to learn what happened, instead of saying "gosh, darn, we can't do anything to get more listeners so we'll just cry in our soup until the sheriff's deputy comes with the eviction notice"...or instead of hoping for more consolidation which just papers over the problem. Is anyone figuring out what traditional radio can do that streaming (etc.) can't do? And, yes, reinvention is tough. I've seen two companies close-up that have tried to do that (in other fields). One has had a measure of success, though it's not as successful as it once was; the other failed miserably. But if you don't try, the result is pretty obvious.

My opinion? Programmers did what listeners told them they wanted. The research was right. So radio---in an attempt to be what the majority of potential listeners said they wanted---stopped doing anything that you could only get on radio.

Radio's best chance at fighting off streaming would have been to be able to say---"we give you value that streaming will never be able to match (probably hyper-local stuff)."

But honestly, the vast majority of the audience didn't care. Ask every really good hyper-local midday talk show host who ended up Limbaugh's roadkill.

Music? Beloved personalities with 40 shares back in the day weren't getting the other 60 percent (who probably thought the beloved personality was a blowhard who should shut up and play the damn music).

If programmers had ignored the research, they might have lost fewer people---but they still would have lost the majority of the audience---the ones they were ignoring---and they'd long ago have passed the point of being profitable enough to provide the locality, liveness and service that would set it apart from streaming.

I used this analogy on this board 15 years ago: Radio is a garden hose. Only one thing comes out of it at a time. Streaming is like one of those Coca-Cola Freestyle machines---100 flavors, no waiting.
 
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My opinion? Programmers did what listeners told them they wanted. The research was right. So radio---in an attempt to be what the majority of potential listeners said they wanted---stopped doing anything that you could only get on radio.

Once again, why were they doing research? Because the advertisers demanded it. It all goes back to those structural problems. Radio has one revenue stream. Stations have to find ways to attract large audiences so they can sell the numbers to advertisers. If you could eliminate that aspect (and non-commercial radio does), then you've solved a lot of the programming problems. (probably why Mark likes non-com radio)

Radio's best chance at fighting off streaming would have been to be able to say---"we give you value that streaming will never be able to match (probably hyper-local stuff)."

That was more important when people stayed home, didn't travel, and didn't have access to the world wide web. "How ya gonna keep em down on the farm after they've seen Paree?" That's the problem with local. We don't live in a local world anymore. The music we play is international. Same with the culture. That changed back in the 80s. Consumers demand better quality hosts than are available locally. The good quality hosts want to get paid more and want to reach more people. Do you blame them? Anyone who's good at what they do wants to play for the largest audiences possible. So the value of local becomes questionable. If there's so much demand for hyperlocal, why didn't LPFM take off?
 
I just thought of one more thing traditional radio can do that streaming can't: It can avoid paying music royalties to labels and artists.
Wait, wait: I thought broadcast radio *did* have to pay music royalties. I'm not a radio professional, so can someone elaborate on this?
 
Wait, wait: I thought broadcast radio *did* have to pay music royalties. I'm not a radio professional, so can someone elaborate on this?

Only to songwriters. It's been that way since the 1930s. They pay performance rights organizations: ASCAP, BMI, SESAC, GMR.

Streamers pay songwriters, labels, artists, and musicians.
 
Out in the real world, the number one complaint I hear about radio stations is that "they play the same songs over and over again". But the same thing is true with the streaming services run by radio companies like iHeart and Audacy. There's no reason why I need to hear the same Benson Boone song every 2 or 3 hours on what you claim is a "listen all day at work" stream or station. And please, please, "Hey, Soul Sister" needs to die already!
 
Out in the real world, the number one complaint I hear about radio stations is that "they play the same songs over and over again".
And when stations do perceptual research (a music test is not "perceptual"), particularly in my preferred one-on-one personal interview, the reasons for that statement come out.

Simply put, the complaint you mention is really not "they play the same songs over and over again".

That statement truly means "they play some songs I don't like".

If a station were just to play songs each person not only likes but "loves" and played them over and over, that person would adore the station. But play a couple of "non-favorites" every hour, and the station is described as "playing songs over and over".
But the same thing is true with the streaming services run by radio companies like iHeart and Audacy. There's no reason why I need to hear the same Benson Boone song every 2 or 3 hours on what you claim is a "listen all day at work" stream or station. And please, please, "Hey, Soul Sister" needs to die already!
Yet if a person loves those songs, they might like to hear them that often... or even more often.

What the PPM taught us is that nearly nobody listens straight through all day at work. They answer the phone or go to another work area or take breaks for lunch and coffee and to pee. They go to meetings or take care of a client or put stuff on a truck.

That 8 hour workday does not produce 8 hours of listening. We got that in the diary, but in the PPM we get a whole bunch of 10, 15 20 minute pieces of the day with time in between and a total of perhaps 3 to 4 hours in total of listening.

So you can play the same song several times in those 8 hours and most listeners will not notice. And that way you can play the highest researching songs as often as they should be played so listeners hear them as much as they want to hear them.
 
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Out in the real world, the number one complaint I hear about radio stations is that "they play the same songs over and over again". But the same thing is true with the streaming services run by radio companies like iHeart and Audacy. There's no reason why I need to hear the same Benson Boone song every 2 or 3 hours on what you claim is a "listen all day at work" stream or station.

You're right. There is no reason. Streaming is...infinite. There are a million choices that wouldn't give you repetition. You've just chosen the most radio-like of the options and this is the result.
 


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