720 WGN filing

[JoeU]

Are we talking about AM stations?

The Chicago "full" FMs are already on the Hancock and the whateveritiscallednow Sears tower. Just as the NYC stations are mostly on the ESB.

Remember that an effective AM tower is at least a quarter wave. At the bottom of the dial, that is around 400 feet and at the top around 150 feet (I am giving rounded numbers just as examples). Less than quarter wave starts to reduce coverage significantly.

There are some alternative "tiny antennas" but they do not create signals like a quarter wave or greater tower. And you can use an inverted L or "T" antenna using wire between two masts, but that can be prohibitavely directional as well as being less efficient.

And any antenna needs some kind of ground system. While roof antennas can use counterpoise systems or even the frame of a steel building, those are not efficient.

In other words, rooftop AM antennas of any kind are not going to give the coverage of a conventional tower with a ground system. And I have not touched on multi-tower directional AM stations.

(An exception would be a full tower on top of one of those huge Amazon-like warehouses with a complete ground system laid out on the roof. But I doubt most warehose oweners woud want the hassle for what would be limited budget AM station payments.)

Chicago has examples of "Roof Top" AMs. WNTD 950 AM day site is located on top of a multi story warehouse building. Been there for about 50 years. Previous to that it was WAAF/WGRT on top of a 12 story building in the Chicago Union Stockyards. From the warehouse site it's a 1kW signal. Roof has radials spread on top of it.

WCPT day site and WSBC are located on a one story building diplexing off the same tower originally designed for WEDC which used to share the 1240 frequency with WSBC. From this site WCPT is 5.8kW day and WSBC is 1kW. Roof appears to be cooper clad too small for radials. In Chicago the original 820 was WAIT with a 5kW site in Elmhurst, IL, sold off about 35 years ago as one of the first AM's to sell it's transmitting site for real estate development. When 820 AM came back on the air in 1993, it was using a wire cage antenna supported by the former WXRT FM tower on Chicago's northwest side. When News Web bought AM 820 and tuned it into WCPT, they used the same cage wire antenna until moving to the WEDC site to diplex with WSBC.

That said, it's not practical for what was once referred to as a Class 1A AM running 50kW to use a roof top tower. The gold standard for Class A AM's were 1/2 to 5/8 wave towers for lower angle radiation and better ground wave conductivity and full radial ground systems. The original WMAQ now WSCR, WGN and WBBM all had/have a tower around 750 Ft which is approximately 1/2 wave length in height. WLS has the only full 5/8 wave vertical on the air in the Chicago area.

WSCR and WBBM moving to the WYLL site in Desplaines, IL will be using verticals designed for AM 1160 which are not even 1/4 wave length in height for ether station which years ago would have nor even been considered for a Class 1A 50kW station.

I would wxpect WGN to want better than what Audacy is doing with their AM properties but, it's 2026 and anything goes! The most ideal solution for WGN would be to diplex with WLS providing Vertical Bridge doesn't sell the site off. It's the tallest AM tower left standing once the WSCR and WGN legacy towers are dropped for real estate development. The next choice would be to diplex with WIND in NW Indiana. They could use anyone of the 4 towers which were designed back in the late 70's all with capacitance hats. Only issue with both of these sites is they are 25 miles further south than the more desirable site which NextStar is willing to sell for profit in Elk Grove, IL.

So, there are choices for WGN. All will be compromises from what their current situation is. They're pulling the trigger. They don't have to sell the Elk Grove site but NextStar wants the profit for bottom line. Maybe buy an FM but not really sure NextStar wants to be in the radio broadcast business as WGN is the only radio station it owns.

 

[Yabadabado1]

Are we talking about AM stations?

The Chicago "full" FMs are already on the Hancock and the whateveritiscallednow Sears tower. Just as the NYC stations are mostly on the ESB.

Remember that an effective AM tower is at least a quarter wave. At the bottom of the dial, that is around 400 feet and at the top around 150 feet (I am giving rounded numbers just as examples). Less than quarter wave starts to reduce coverage significantly.

There are some alternative "tiny antennas" but they do not create signals like a quarter wave or greater tower. And you can use an inverted L or "T" antenna using wire between two masts, but that can be prohibitavely directional as well as being less efficient.

And any antenna needs some kind of ground system. While roof antennas can use counterpoise systems or even the frame of a steel building, those are not efficient.

In other words, rooftop AM antennas of any kind are not going to give the coverage of a conventional tower with a ground system. And I have not touched on multi-tower directional AM stations.

(An exception would be a full tower on top of one of those huge Amazon-like warehouses with a complete ground system laid out on the roof. But I doubt most warehose oweners woud want the hassle for what would be limited budget AM station payments.)

Yeah, was thinking AM but in my mind applying FM parameters to it not really thinking about the different situations. I think I do remember seeing some photos of old AM antenna towers on top of some buildings in LA or am I mistaken? That's probably what brought the old "stick 'em on top of a building" thought to mind. And where I'm at, I think they could stick every AM/FM radio antenna in the area on top of the Amazon warehouse nearby with room to spare. It replaced what at one time was the biggest mall in the USA but that damn Amazon store is even bigger. You could sunbathe at one end while it's snowing at the other.

 

[K.M. Richards]

I think I do remember seeing some photos of old AM antenna towers on top of some buildings in LA or am I mistaken?

Your memory is not playing tricks on you. The old KRKD/1150 towers were rooftop, in downtown L.A.

 

[Schroedingers Cat]

There were also many buildings with two towers on them , from mostly1920 to 1941, with top loading "hammock" wires suspended between them and center fed. They are actually vertically polarized for that reason, and nondirectional because the horizontal wires are top loading.

 

[KilowattKat]

KSFN 1510 in the San Francisco Bay Area, is also on a rooftop. From Wiki:

In 2003, Mt. Wilson Broadcasters moved the transmitter from Marin to Oakland so as to improve its signal into San Francisco. The station is unique in that its entire directional antenna array is located on the rooftop of a large warehouse.[32][33] By 2005, the station was airing an oldies format.[34

 

[K.M. Richards]

I had forgotten, in my earlier post, that KRKD's towers are on two different buildings, both part of the Los Angeles Arcade. I found a decent color picture of them at Pond5:



They still stand, having been declared a historic landmark, which thwarted a 2014 attempt at dismantling them; as a result they are now kept painted and lighted to comply with FCC regulations.

When they were actively in use, they supported a hammock antenna, as @Schroedingers Cat described two post above this one.

 

[Mark Roberts]

KSFN 1510 in the San Francisco Bay Area, is also on a rooftop. From Wiki:

In 2003, Mt. Wilson Broadcasters moved the transmitter from Marin to Oakland so as to improve its signal into San Francisco. The station is unique in that its entire directional antenna array is located on the rooftop of a large warehouse.[32][33] By 2005, the station was airing an oldies format.[34

The station was originally KTIM from San Rafael. The city of license was changed to Piedmont, an incorporated city surrounded entirely by Oakland.

The setup can be seen from Grand Avenue in west Oakland; four towers on the roof.

It won't be the only one in the Bay Area. Salem has a CP for KFAX (1100 kHz) and KTRB to do the following:

"It is proposed to dismantle the existing four guyed towers to accommodate a new
warehouse building. Four new towers will then be constructed on top of the newly
constructed warehouse building. The center of array coordinates will remain the same
as currently authorized. This site will be shared with KTRB – 860 kHz, San Francisco,
California."

Link: https://enterpriseefiling.fcc.gov/dataentry/api/download/attachment/25076ff3900ebdec01902c172b490882 (for KFAX)

The site is in Hayward near the San Mateo Bridge.

KFAX is operating from the KTCT site while the construction continues.

Salem also has a CP to modify its two Denver AM stations (KRKS, KBJD), but in that case, the antenna will be moved a few hundred feet to allow warehouses to be constructed on the former antenna site.

 

[K.M. Richards]

The station was originally KTIM from San Rafael. The city of license was changed to Piedmont, an incorporated city surrounded entirely by Oakland.

The setup can be seen from Grand Avenue in west Oakland; four towers on the roof.

Just barely ... they are not painted or lighted and are hard to make out against the sky. I added arrows to this Google Maps street view to point them out:

 

[Mark Roberts]

Just barely ... they are not painted or lighted and are hard to make out against the sky. I added arrows to this Google Maps street view to point them out:

It's most obvious when traveling westbound on Grand, a couple of blocks east of Mandela Parkway. That used to be my "back-door" route to get to the Emeryville shopping area, avoiding the Maze as well as the traffic tangle that can be San Pablo Avenue.

 

[Schroedingers Cat]

The old WFDF towers on the Charles Stewart Mott Foundation Building in Flint, Michigan. Used as a main facility from 1930 to 1941, and as an AUX until the mid 1950s. The wires between the towers are "old school photoshopped" (drawn in), and doesn't show the center feed wire. Otherwise, you wouldn't see the wires. The towers are still there. They are about 40 feet high and are painted red and white now. They use them for VHF utility communications. They made them put FAA lighting on the towers after the taller building next to it was demolished in 2013.

 

[dc2bluelight]

WCPT day site and WSBC are located on a one story building diplexing off the same tower originally designed for WEDC which used to share the 1240 frequency with WSBC. From this site WCPT is 5.8kW day and WSBC is 1kW. Roof appears to be cooper clad too small for radials.

That site has burried radials. Short, but burried.

That said, it's not practical for what was once referred to as a Class 1A AM running 50kW to use a roof top tower. The gold standard for Class A AM's were 1/2 to 5/8 wave towers for lower angle radiation and better ground wave conductivity and full radial ground systems. The original WMAQ now WSCR, WGN and WBBM all had/have a tower around 750 Ft which is approximately 1/2 wave length in height. WLS has the only full 5/8 wave vertical on the air in the Chicago area.

WLS's tower is 585', WGN is 740'. Neither is 5/8 wave, but WGN is a bit closer to 5/8 than WLS. Both are over 1/2 wave.

I would wxpect WGN to want better than what Audacy is doing with their AM properties but, it's 2026 and anything goes! The most ideal solution for WGN would be to diplex with WLS providing Vertical Bridge doesn't sell the site off. It's the tallest AM tower left standing once the WSCR and WGN legacy towers are dropped for real estate development. The next choice would be to diplex with WIND in NW Indiana. They could use anyone of the 4 towers which were designed back in the late 70's all with capacitance hats. Only issue with both of these sites is they are 25 miles further south than the more desirable site which NextStar is willing to sell for profit in Elk Grove, IL.

The most ideal situation would be for WGN to stay where it is, probably build a new tower and take on tenants. Kind of a pain at 50kw, but possible and at over 700', extremely lucrative.

So, there are choices for WGN. All will be compromises from what their current situation is. They're pulling the trigger.

Are they? Really?

They don't have to sell the Elk Grove site but NextStar wants the profit for bottom line. Maybe buy an FM but not really sure NextStar wants to be in the radio broadcast business as WGN is the only radio station it owns.

The CP to move to new towers on the current site was cancelled. Seems like whatever the land deal was that started it fell through. That doesn't say some other deal might not come up, but a good bit of the property is wet lands. Might not be all that easy. Could be other factors too.

Moving away from the primary service area for any AM is probably a poor option given the fact that with the current incedental/unintended RFI environment we now need more than 10X the field strength for good reception in a residence. Moving away from your listeners is just making worse what is already a challenged service. Yes, it's done all the time for a cash grab, not always a good idea long term, and depends on how well the station is doing. The WMVP move probably made good logical sense. A WGN move might not. It's an equasion that puts current land value against station billing and projected income. It's why 1kW DAs take the cash and turn in the license. Not quite that simple for the 50K A's, but clearly that happens too.

 

[K.M. Richards]

The CP to move to new towers on the current site was cancelled. Seems like whatever the land deal was that started it fell through. That doesn't say some other deal might not come up, but a good bit of the property is wet lands. Might not be all that easy. Could be other factors too.

IIRC, it was supposed to accommodate a new building for a data center, but I don't have any information as to why that project apparently evaporated. Maybe someone in Chicagoland knows.

 

[Schroedingers Cat]

A 5/8 wavelength tower puts a null at about 37 degrees above horizontal. Above 5/8 wavelength, efficiency goes down. As you move from 180 degrees to 225 degrees, the vertical null goes from 90 degrees down to 37 degrees. The ideal height varies from station to station, and depends on conductivity and Summer Winter variations that affect fading distance. Most Class I-As use towers of about 190 or 195 degrees electrical height, or used to.

 

[davideduardo]

The main issue with WGN is that they are the main EBS site in the North East Illinois area that trigger EBS for all of the other Chicago stations. Historically, large AM's in the country have been EBS stations for their geographic locations. If emergencies occur these hardened AM's can stay on the air in many different ways when cell sites are down, and the internet is not functioning. A new EBS system needs to be developed if these AM's are going away which more than likely will be the case within the next 5 to 10 years.

There are plenty of areas where there is no local "big signal" AM station and an FM is the primary EBS station. There is no reason why an FM can't do just as good a job. One example of such a region or area is Tallahassee, FL.

 

[CADXER]

IIRC, it was supposed to accommodate a new building for a data center, but I don't have any information as to why that project apparently evaporated. Maybe someone in Chicagoland knows.

It has not evaporated, but according to the Elk Grove Village it was postponed. The original plans called for 3 data center buildings with WGN tower moving slightly to accommodate that. The deadline to start construction has passed, but was now extended by the Elk Grove Village board to September 2027. According to the article from the Daily Herald I posted earlier in this thread, the new plans now call for 4 data center buildings using more of the WGN property, which most likely means that the WGN tower moving to entirely new location, or diplexing with an existing tower.

 

[JoeU]

IIRC, it was supposed to accommodate a new building for a data center, but I don't have any information as to why that project apparently evaporated. Maybe someone in Chicagoland knows.

Here is a link that is not behind a pay wall to the article that originally appeared in Northwest Chicago's suburban Daily Herald:

Elk Grove Village extends Nexstar’s deadline for WGN data center campus

The redevelopment plan evolved from the initial three-building proposal to a vision for four data center buildings spread across a larger portion of the site.

therealdeal.com

 

[yeoldeschool]

I was crap at school, dumped in the lowest class for most stuff, and didn't go to college. I just didn't get on with the school environment at all. Then I got a first-class degree in my 30s and now work at a top-10 selective university, where there are plenty of people like me who are there later in life but struggled in school.

It's almost as though schools don't really know what they're doing, have teachers who are phoning it in, and are full of negative and unpleasant behavior like bullying, and aren't a good preparation for the real, civilized world at all. I'm amazed that we are still using this old Victorian model of education - it can't be because capitalism needs a place to dump kids so parents can work, of course.

Not to re-derail this thread, but your remarks reminded me of this little gem from 16 years ago on why the present day schooling paradigm is failing people: