‘NO PROBLEM with good ‘ole-fashioned AM!

[KB1OKL]

Survey question:

Have your radio listening habits changed since the implementation of AM-HD?

Obviously that's not the question to ask. But you and others continually claim the hash is driving people away. I have no reason to believe that's true. My point is they were already gone a long time ago.

I actually have no idea if AM listenership has gone down since the advent of HD (I don't think so, most probably because the great AM conversion ship is still stuck in the dock and it's leaking like hell, and one thing is certainly clear, it hasn't gone up which was it's purported purpose wasn't it: the savior of terrestrial radio? It's been a huge (well to us, to everyone else it was a nonevent) disaster on AM (is that what HD really stands for?) and certainly hasn't been successful on FM either as no one knows about it and no one is buying the receivers. Which again begs the question: Why is it even still around? It's helped no one, except for ibiquity's pocketbook of course and lot's of people have spent a lot of money on it to no avail. It's had barrels of free publicity on radio. The government has even given public radio loads of money to implement it on NPR stations. And.. it is still flat lining. How long did Ford manufacture the Edsel? 3 years. How long is it going to take for HD to go the way of the Edsel? Is terrestrial radio going to have to go belly up before it stops throwing good money after bad? I hope not, I like it. HD was a bumpy unpaved side road to nowhere that unfortunately a lot of big players took, I hope they can find their way back..... because, it's a dead end.
As far as the Edsel, at least Ford had enough sense to stop making them when it was obvious that they were tanking even though they were named after Henry's son: Edsel Ford.

 

[TheBigA]

Which again begs the question: Why is it even still around? It's helped no one, except for ibiquity's pocketbook of course and lot's of people have spent a lot of money on it to no avail.

It really hasn't helped iBiquity. They haven't turned a profit on it. They just got some additional financing to meet payroll. So this idea that they're making loads of money isn't true. Stations are still running their programming commercial-free, so they're not making money on it either.

There is no data that says it's been a "huge disaster on AM," other than people like you don't like it, and a group of owners are angry about it. Not enough to say a majority of owners or engineers agree.

The reason it's still around, I imagine, is because these stations signed a contract. The contract has a term on it, which I believe is an additional year.

 

[KB1OKL]

Which again begs the question: Why is it even still around? It's helped no one, except for ibiquity's pocketbook of course and lot's of people have spent a lot of money on it to no avail.

It really hasn't helped iBiquity. They haven't turned a profit on it. They just got some additional financing to meet payroll. So this idea that they're making loads of money isn't true. Stations are still running their programming commercial-free, so they're not making money on it either.

I don't think Ford made much money on the Edsel either

There is no data that says it's been a "huge disaster on AM," other than people like you don't like it, and a group of owners are angry about it. Not enough to say a majority of owners or engineers agree.

That statement reminds me of an old Dylan tune in which he says: "You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows"

The reason it's still around, I imagine, is because these stations signed a contract. The contract has a term on it, which I believe is an additional year.

Your last statement makes a lot of sense because there is no other reason it would still be here.

 

[TheBigA]

That statement reminds me of an old Dylan tune in which he says: "You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows"

[/quote]

If that's true, why do you feel this need to continue to bash and attack something which you claim is already dead? It's completely unnecessary. You're beating the proverbial dead horse. Give it a rest and find something new to attack.

 

[KB1OKL]

That statement reminds me of an old Dylan tune in which he says: "You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows"

If that's true, why do you feel this need to continue to bash and attack something which you claim is already dead? It's completely unnecessary. You're beating the proverbial dead horse. Give it a rest and find something new to attack.
[/quote]

Well I feel the same way about the Alliance and ibiquity, why do they keep pushing it? I don't feel I'm bashing and attacking anyway, I'm on the other side of the coin and try to counter things I read which i feel are not true just like the pro-IBOCers do.

 

[Kelly]

I think there are a few AM broadcasters here who transmit with the top of their frequency response closer to 10K, and as far as MP3 players go (and anything digital) analog presents the whole wave form, not a composite facsimile.
I'm a bass player, the low E on a 4 string bass is approx 40 Hz, I heard plenty of low E's last night on the Meduci, not overtones either, fundamental tones.
I guess a lot of AMers are not using the NRSC compliance window as a guide, except for the ones who want to sound like Walkie Talkies and the IBOC'ers who evidently have to use it or something close to it, which is why they synthesize artificial highs, which is kind of like putting saccharine on your oatmeal in the morning..

Technically speaking KB, your statement is just plain ignorant. Unless your brain is manufacturing frequencies that don't exist, then you aren't hearing portions of the music when it gets rolled-off at 3.5-4KHZ. Do you even own an IPod, or MP3 player? I can't believe someone would make a silly statement like measurements don't matter.

Just as I responded to someone who made the silly statement in Radio World years ago that AM stereo, (and AMAX) sounded better than FM stereo. I make the same statement to you KB...You should seriously get your hearing checked if you can't hear the difference between 4KHZ, and 13KHZ. MP3 players have audio response out to 20KHZ. Maybe you've been playing the bass for too long and too loud, because you've clearly lost all the high end in your hearing. In fact, I would bet you ten thousand dollars, that a seventeen year old male child, if comparing the audio from his MP3 player, or ANY AM station without hesitation would pick the audio from the MP3 player as being superior and preferred.

Oh and one other thing.. The specs I mentioned of what the typical AM response and distortion measurements of several AM stations that I did measurements on over the years with a typical Orban 9100, measured at the modulation monitor. The specifications of your magic tuner, don't take into account 60dB of multi-band audio compression, clipping, and 125% positive modulation. In fact, I suspect those receiver specs were made in a lab with a test transmitter, not a real radio station. Oh that's right KB, you don't care about specs anyway..

 

[KB1OKL]

I think there are a few AM broadcasters here who transmit with the top of their frequency response closer to 10K, and as far as MP3 players go (and anything digital) analog presents the whole wave form, not a composite facsimile.
I'm a bass player, the low E on a 4 string bass is approx 40 Hz, I heard plenty of low E's last night on the Meduci, not overtones either, fundamental tones.
I guess a lot of AMers are not using the NRSC compliance window as a guide, except for the ones who want to sound like Walkie Talkies and the IBOC'ers who evidently have to use it or something close to it, which is why they synthesize artificial highs, which is kind of like putting saccharine on your oatmeal in the morning..

Technically speaking KB, your statement is just plain ignorant. Unless your brain is manufacturing frequencies that don't exist, then you aren't hearing portions of the music when it gets rolled-off at 3.5-4KHZ. Do you even own an IPod, or MP3 player? I can't believe someone would make a silly statement like measurements don't matter.

Here we go again, the IBOC boosters just have to resort to insults, well I guess when you are playing with such a poor hand, you have to resort to something else besides facts.You think ALL AM stations follow that silly rolled off curve? Don't think so. Look around here in the HD section you'll find broadcasters who broadcast up to 8- 10 Khz. I do not own an MP3 player nor an Ipod I've heard them and no thanks, they are for kids.

Just as I responded to someone who made the silly statement in Radio World years ago that AM stereo, (and AMAX) sounded better than FM stereo. I make the same statement to you KB...You should seriously get your hearing checked if you can't hear the difference between 4KHZ, and 13KHZ. MP3 players have audio response out to 20KHZ. Maybe you've been playing the bass for too long and too loud, because you've clearly lost all the high end in your hearing. In fact, I would bet you ten thousand dollars, that a seventeen year old male child, if comparing the audio from his MP3 player, or ANY AM station without hesitation would pick the audio from the MP3 player as being superior and preferred.

You are probably right because kids have become accustomed to lousy digital sound and don't care about good sound, my hearing is fine BTW and silly is your opinion, just as Amax stereo sounding better than FM stereo was that posters opinion, you do know what an opinion is don't you? full of insults huh, love them? Make you sound very important.

Oh and one other thing.. The specs I mentioned of what the typical AM response and distortion measurements of several AM stations that I did measurements on over the years with a typical Orban 9100, measured at the modulation monitor.

Typical perhaps but not universal many stations broadcast hifi AM, perhaps if your mind wasn't so closed you would have already known that.

The specifications of your magic tuner, don't take into account 60dB of multi-band audio compression, clipping, and 125% positive modulation. In fact, I suspect those receiver specs were made in a lab with a test transmitter, not a real radio station. Oh that's right KB, you don't care about specs anyway..

I did not post any specifications of any magic tuner, I have a tuner with a wide open front end in fact I own many of them, the Meduci sounds great, why don't you buy one and try it yourself before you bash them, in fact why don't you put one on your electronic gizmos so you will know if it sounds good or not. Where did you get the specs for the Meduci, on the website?
I don't need instruments to tell me when something "sounds good" And I am a trained tech BTW although I've never worked at it.

 

[Carmine5]

Frankly, I am sick and tired of the hackneyed "AM is Dead" mindset. This is the mantra of uninspired and uninspiring programmers, station owners, and people who claim to be friends of radio but aren't.

Two months ago, my good friend and business partner and I did an informal survey at our places of work. He on the East Coast, me on the West Coast. We each asked 10 people under 30 what their impression of AM was. Answer: News, Talk, Sports--news, talk, sports--news, talk, sports. Most of the guys said they listened to AM for sports and news. About 20% of the women said they listened to news. Nobody but nobody said they listened to talk. Rush Limbaugh, Michael Savage and Sean Hannity are dead, dead, dead with the under 30 crowd.

Next, we asked that if there was a format they really wanted to hear but could only get on AM, like Reggae, would they tune in and listen. It was unanimous. They all said, "yes." That's right. They would listen to AM, with all its pops, buzzes and hiss, if the programming interested them.

Bottom line? It is third rate, cheap, uninspired programming and the 'AM is dead' mindset that is killing AM for the under 30 crowd, not environmental noise.

Until this thinking changes, then yes, AM is dying.

C5

 

[TheBigA]

Frankly, I am sick and tired of the hackneyed "AM is Dead" mindset. This is the mantra of uninspired and uninspiring programmers, station owners, and people who claim to be friends of radio but aren't.

If you worked at an AM station in 1983, as I did, you'd realize that there's NOTHING you can do as a programmer that will return AM radio to its former glory. That train left the station a long time ago. You can bring back Boss Radio, Robert W. Morgan, and all the legends who made AM radio great, and even THEY would fall flat on their faces. Lots of very smart and creative people have tried during the last 25 years, they've spent hundreds of millions of dollars, and ended up with hangover.

It was unanimous. They all said, "yes." That's right. They would listen to AM, with all its pops, buzzes and hiss, if the programming interested them.

They're full of crap. Most of them don't even OWN an AM radio, and wouldn't buy one if it cost $10. Regardless of the programming. I could broadcast live sex on AM and people under 30 wouldn't listen. Unless the sex involves them directly, they're not interested. If they're female, it wouldn't even matter if they're involved.

Bottom line? It is third rate, cheap, uninspired programming and the 'AM is dead' mindset that is killing AM for the under 30 crowd, not environmental noise.

Until this thinking changes, then yes, AM is dying.

I can direct you to a 5K AM station in a Top 20 market right now for less money than a cheap house. $10K down, and monthly payments of about $3000. Would you put your own cash money into it? I bet you wouldn't.

Email me if you have the guts. Otherwise STFU.

 

[Kelly]

Interesting.. So you're saying if more AM stations played Reggae music, then the AM band would be saved? And you really believe that? And you don't think that being mono, having frequency response of a telephone conversation, oh and plays loud noises when around switching power supplies, (computers or monitors) makes a difference to anyone? Really?

Let's ask Savage, who owns an AM station in Upstate NY. So Savage, would you consider dumping your current line-up of syndicated programming to play Reggae? Or any music for that matter?

You see, that's what the next generation like about MP3 players and IPods. You can make your own playlist of Reggae, Hip-Hop, Active Rock, or whatever, without a bunch of commercials and yakky jocks. And I'm sorry, contrary from what KB's state of denial indicates, audio from a MP3 device or IPod sounds FAR superior to ANY AM station ever built.

I've got an idea.. Why don't you put your money where your keyboard is, stop by the bank tomorrow morning and ask to see the branch manager. Tell him/her you would like to take out a loan, secured by your home. Then tell him/her that you want to borrow about a half a million dollars, and want to purchase one of the many small-medium market AM stations on the market, (you'll need some operating capital once you purchase the station). Upon taking over, you're going to save the AM band, and make large sums of cash flow and great margins by programming Reggae music on it. I suspect the manager will get a good laugh while they call security to escort you from the building.

As for Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity being "dead dead dead", didn't Premier Radio just re-do Rush' deal for a record amount? I would assume that CCU thinks that at least the oldster's are still interested in listening to Rush at least till they meet their respective maker's. And I think that right around that same time Hannity's deal was re-done too wasn't it? Did I read that correctly?

Clearly you're so much smarter than any of the programmers out there today, so I vote you get out there and personally prove how brilliant you are!

 

[TheBigA]

Then tell him/her that you want to borrow about a half a million dollars, and want to purchase one of the many small-medium market AM stations on the market

Less than that. $300K. Top 20 market. Available now. Boogie on reggae woman.

 

[Kelly]

Indeed, but he's not going to have much advertising on, (other than the local head shop), so he's going to need some operating capital to buy some time while single-handedly revitalizing the AM band.

 

[Savage]

Did I just read that "iBiquity borrowed money to meet payroll?" Is that actually true?

If so the company is circling the drain. Anybody who's been in business ten minutes or so knows you don't borrow money to meet fixed recurring expenses like that. At least not without a game plan to get out of the death spiral. If you can't afford your payroll, you can't afford payroll with debt layered on top of it.

There was another post here a while back where some GM was sending out a distress call because his HD Decepticon had crapped the bed and his HD was down and he needed an updated authorization code to get it up and running. Nobody was answering the phones at iBiquity at 10AM EDST. Taking these two reports together I think it's safe to say things aren't exactly rosy in HD-land.

Kind of puts Strew-bull's "everything's going great!" happy-talk press releases in proper perspective, doesn't it?

Kelly, we lost a major sports franchise this summer because nobody can hear the station over the WBZ-HD hash. There is a reference in this week's fybush.com column to CBS' putting KDKA on the market and how the HD interference from WBZ could impair sale of the station.

This morning we had some thunderstorms that briefly confused our automation computer, so I had dead air. I drove in around 4am to fix the problem and heard our carrier with no modulation, with obnoxious skywave hiss invading a lobe in our coverage which typically exceeds 50 mv/m. That's more than three times our nighttime NIF. See why I hate HD? You HD fans would too if you had your livelihood on the line over a dorky RF science project that nobody cares about.

 

[kenglish]

I’m a political Libertarian, kenglish - BUT I recall the very-basic “Part 15” FCC RF rules... They go beyond just the “wannabe radio star” firing-up a basement transmitter to cover the neighborhood... These established rules clearly-cover superfluous RF emissions from apartment wiring, home-security motion detectors, and even aquarium heaters – so WHY isn’t our illustrative FCC failing to enforce FOUR-DECADE-OLD rules... This is the “real” detriment of AM radio – followed closely by compromised receiver “design”... BOTH invite government intervention and action!

Rmember, I said I am Libertarian, BUT, there is a time ‘n place for an effective regulatory body [this is that time]... They should be concerned with way-more than the circumference of Janet’s nipples!

I agree. But, money talks....I worked with the mall management for nearly a year, until I told them what needed fixing (i.e.: the $$$). Then, they started ignoring me. Several store managers said "just get cable TV". What's kinda funny, though, is that they do such crappy maintenance on their neons (told to me by their maintenance contractor) that they keep catching the buildings on fire. I've even suggested to the fire marshall that they do something, but they don't seem to care. I guess that their budget increases depend on the number of fires they attend ;D .

As for the Tony Roma's next door...they had their VP of Ops come out and work with us (me and their sign contractor) at first (after getting an FCC letter and citation). But, according to the sign company, there was one part (the "Take Out" available letters) that couldn't be fixed. So, the management said to leave those turned off until they were ready to "re-build the sign". They said it was cheaper than the $150 filter that YESCO (the sign company) suggested.
A few months later, the noise was back. Making a call to the sign company, I was told that the owners had said they were losing $500 a day by not having the sign working. But, they refused to pay $150 for the recommended filter. So, they told the sign company to turn it back on. When the sign company guy reminded them of their promise to the FCC, and the fact that they could be fined up to $10K a day for violating it, the owner said (according to the sign guy) "F@#k the FCC, do it anyway".

Consulting with the FCC inspector, it was decided I would be better off dropping the matter. The restaurant management company is a big client of my employer. And, I like getting a paycheck.

Fortunately, they went out of business last year. I pray every night that lightning will hit that old sign before someone else buys the place.

I'm sure there are similar stories from many former radio listeners.

 

[Kelly]

It wouldn't surprise me in the least if Ibquity was having trouble. Clearly the dollars flowing in from licensing fees both related to stations, and manufacturers probably is no where near their original budget targets. Trust me, I've had many telephone and E-mail conversations with both HD Alliance members and Ibquity, all wanting my stations to put on HD radio. When I've asked for written statistics like how many radios have been sold and by whom, they say that information isn't available. Then my next statement/question is: If you're selling a right to put the chips in the radios, then how can you not know how many have been sold and by whom??" It seems like that information would be helpful to their cause. I agree there is a lot of smoke-and-mirrors in use, but mainly because the front line of Ibquity are PR and marketing people, not technically inclined.

Thanks for the reply about your situation Savage. So a major sports team that backed out of being on your station? Would they be willing to document the reason they no longer want to be on your station is because of interference? It seems to me that would be a powerful letter to wave in front of both the commission, and for use in a possible civil action against WBZ. Definately if you can document that you've lost precious revenue due to documented interference, then I don't blame you for being upset, (at least about the AM version of IBOC).

It seems like you, and other posters here like to label me and anyone else who doesn't sing the same song as being Pro-HD. I assure you however and have stated many times on this board, that I am neither a proponent, nor detractor because I am unaffected by the modulation standard, nor have I seen anyone else in the markets which I consult or work have any problems.

What I will agree with, is something needs to be done to help stem the loss of listeners on the Medium Wave band. Perhaps that new standard involves DRM, or something else. If the audio quality and coverage can somehow at least equal FM while not trying to break the laws of physics, then I'm all for it. After updating the delivery method, then hopefully the programming geniuses will come up with something interesting to put on them.

I've been down the road of AM stereo, that horse is dead. IBOC for AM, probably dead too for lack of consumer interest. So what is next? Hopefully some creative thinking rather than just burying one's head in the sand and saying that the quality of plain old AM is good enough. Obviously AM is good enough for some of the 40+ generation, but we're all getting older, and I for one would like to see things evolve sucessfully rather than watching the original electronic media die of old age.

 

[Savage]

You'll get no argument from me that AM needs help and that technical innovation to reawaken interest in radio in general would be a good thing. But any "solution" has to (a) offer genuine, not illusory improvement; (b) be available with equanimity and without confiscatory, monopolistic end-use licensing; (c) not impose hardship in the form of spectrum pollution that unfairly injures smaller broadcasters while elitist developers of the new system get special treatment from the FCC - practically speaking, a free-ticket license to interfere.
HD violates all of these tenets. And it doesn't even work very well, so the whole risk-benefit analysis is moot.

 

[KB1OKL]

Frankly, I am sick and tired of the hackneyed "AM is Dead" mindset. This is the mantra of uninspired and uninspiring programmers, station owners, and people who claim to be friends of radio but aren't.

Two months ago, my good friend and business partner and I did an informal survey at our places of work. He on the East Coast, me on the West Coast. We each asked 10 people under 30 what their impression of AM was. Answer: News, Talk, Sports--news, talk, sports--news, talk, sports. Most of the guys said they listened to AM for sports and news. About 20% of the women said they listened to news. Nobody but nobody said they listened to talk. Rush Limbaugh, Michael Savage and Sean Hannity are dead, dead, dead with the under 30 crowd.

Next, we asked that if there was a format they really wanted to hear but could only get on AM, like Reggae, would they tune in and listen. It was unanimous. They all said, "yes." That's right. They would listen to AM, with all its pops, buzzes and hiss, if the programming interested them.

Bottom line? It is third rate, cheap, uninspired programming and the 'AM is dead' mindset that is killing AM for the under 30 crowd, not environmental noise.

Until this thinking changes, then yes, AM is dying.

C5

When I was a kid I would listen to anything that played what I wanted to hear, that still holds true today. There was one progressive AM station here in Newton MA on 1550. It came in terrible here in Worcester being I think a 1 Kw station but whenever I drove out near Boston it was on in my car and I was a die hard WBCN listener by that point having migrated from AM several years earlier because of the programming, no other reason, in fact I thought the FM mode was inferior as it had no skywave. I even listened to it at home sometimes. My point being that if the type of programming that kids want is on AM radio they'll listen. The pre-teens listen to Radio Kidney don't they? I don't think AM is dieing either, it's main problem right now besides consolidated boring programming and virtually no music is that it is under assault from new powerful self-inflicted noise generators strategically placed through out the band. AM would be good for niche programming, 50's oldies, blues, real jazz, Reggae, etc. The former CHWO 740 plays all kinds of niche type music and is very successful at it. I was listening to Big Band Saturday Night on CHWO last night for example.

 

[rbrucecarter5]

Just as I responded to someone who made the silly statement in Radio World years ago that AM stereo, (and AMAX) sounded better than FM stereo. I make the same statement to you KB...You should seriously get your hearing checked if you can't hear the difference between 4KHZ, and 13KHZ.

This is the second time in this thread I've read that old lie about AM being limited to 4 kHz. I don't know what sort of antique radio you folks dredged up to make that claim, or maybe they still design Bose radios with 35 year old technology / reference designs. Newer AM radios are all broadband, because they skimp on the IF section. Period. So if AM stations wanted to, they could broadcast 20 kHz and it would come through the circuitry just fine - but likely the speakers would be the limiting factor. Of course they voluntarily limited it to 10 kHz some years ago, but the 4 kHz nonsense comes from outmoded radios and reference designs dating from the late 60's and early 70's - NOBODY is going to devote that much board space to the AM band these days. The only stations limited to 4 kHz are the lemmings going over the cliff of IBOC.

Yes - AMAX DOES sound better than FM stereo. FM rolls off at 50 Hz and 15 kHz - AMAX could go down to the stereo pilot and had more bass. The theoretical separation of AM stereo was much better than FM stereo separation. And yes, the high frequency response may have been less, but at least it was a graceful roll off, not the brick wall at 15 kHz (to accomodate pilots and subcarrier trash) - a 15 kHz brick wall that distorts musical overtones. FM HD does solve those problems, but adds more due to the compression algorithms. Which goes to show there is no perfect solution to the problem of how to faithfully reproduce music.

 

[TheBigA]

Did I just read that "iBiquity borrowed money to meet payroll?" Is that actually true?

I regret having said that yesterday. I have no idea if it's true. The company got some additional financing earlier this year, but I have no idea what they'll use it for. Perhaps more marketing, more discounts on radios, or some other purpose.

Both XM and Sirius got some additional financing in the days before the merger happened. So what?

The funny part is this morning I look over at a couple of blogs and the anti-IBOC brigade have taken this line and are parading around like it's fact, telling the world that iBiquity is not long for this earth. This is how rumors get started.

 

[Savage]

Well, you said it, not me. I said IF that's what's happening, the company isn't long for this world. You can be sure iBiquity won't be using additional debt for marketing on-air, since Alliance members continue to pound the annoying, irrelevant "unsold inventory" promos for HD which cost them precisely nothing.

I miss your point about XM/Sirius and their money woes. What, are you suggesting they have a marvelous financial model for HD to emulate? (We could only hope. HD would be outta here before the end of the month.)

You went on to muse, publicly, right here, that the company is most likely missing (by a wide margin, you intimated) revenue goals because of poor consumer/listener response and general disinterest in the system. And you're apparently lamenting how people took you at your word?

It's ironic how you fault (and name-call) the "Anti-IBOC brigade" over an alleged rumour which YOU apparently started.