102.3 The River - Austin

[Link]

Re: Message

I don't think that you should always talk about religion, you may need to earn the chance to talk about jesus. However I am not enthusiastic about stations that "never" talk about it. I wish the station would be comfortable, build a relationship and find ways to encourage listeners. My opinion is many stations are unable to do anything except make the listener comfortable.

Then it is really just an money making enterprise. The station is in my opinon really doing nothing significant. I don't see many christian stations in the middle between never and doller a holler.

Didn't Rich Mullins say ccm was just a business and don't think its anything more than that? I think its important to keep that perspective with the majority of christian radio stations unfortunately.

I dislike the financial situation at klove and everytime the prez comes on the air, I turn the station off, but I admire them for being more towards the middle in acknowledging jesus.

 

[radioelizabeth]

Re: Message

link wrote:
"My opinion is many stations are unable to do anything except make the listener comfortable...Then it is really just an money making enterprise. The station is in my opinon really doing nothing significant."


But making a listener comfortable is VERY significant...especially if the target is a woman. She has one thousand and one million things that stretch her, break her, bend her, twist her, and tie her up all day (and night)...can't her radio station be a place that makes her rest and feel encouraged?

If she is searching for challenge on the dial...she will find it.

I truly believe that if a person is listening for a message (if that is their USAGE)...God will get them one...even through a song.

<P ID="signature">______________
RADIOELIZABETH
Pleasant, Passionate, Persuasive
www.radioelizabeth.com</P>

 

[radioelizabeth]

Re: Message

neutral observer wrote:
"(Whoops -- almost typed my name!)"

and it is a shame you didn't.

curiosity is wearing, and now...it's just getting frustrating...


but that was a good post.

 

[toddohio]

Re: Message

I appreciate your comments for sure.

I think the danger is when we assume that Christian radio listeners want to use Christian radio like they do church.

 

[neutral_observer]

Re: Message

> My opinion is many stations are unable to do anything except
> make the listener comfortable.

But, when you think of how Christians get positioned by media, some politicians, educators, and comedians, isn't that a good thing??

What if, maybe, the best a station could do is to help people get over or get beyond the intentionally-created misconceptions? What if a station could help people to realize that Christians are something close to "normal," perfectly reasonable people? Wouldn't that be a good thing? A really good thing?

In bringing people to Christ, it's usually very hard to pull people up from 100 feet down; what if a radio station could help these people get back up to just 10 feet down...or four...or back up to ground level? Wouldn't that make the job of witnessing to them much easier?



> I dislike the financial situation at klove and everytime the
> prez comes on the air, I turn the station off,...

You mean being eight figures in the black and claiming not to be "fully-funded?" It's an interesting choice of words...definitely not technically dishonest, but not exactly straight-forward, either.

Though not ever having raised money, myself, I understand something of the nature of it and have no problem with a certain amount of "creativity" in the process. The problem that I have with what they're doing is that it's something that has caused normal people -- yes, plural! -- to come to me, raise issues, and express concerns. Normal people are figuring it out.

A relative drew me aside and asked, "could you do that?" (Obviously not referring to actually talking on the radio and asking for support...)

A math-minded friend (almost as good and fast as I! )who *was* a monthly contributor came to me and said, "I can't make these numbers make sense." He had actually done a decent job of estimating the cost of running a transmitter and then doubled it "just in case." (I told him the transmission process is definitely inefficient, so he had absolutely done the right thing by doubling it!) Having close relatives in local and state politics, he then made some estimates of property taxes for the transmitter sites in the region. I told him they had a regional rep and an engineer that covered x number of stations...having formerly been a business owner, he quickly worked them in and divided by the number of stations. I told him about payments to owners of stations they don't own and the operation in Rocklin, noting most of the aspects of what they do that probably wouldn't occur to him. He doubled his number, scratched that, and then tripled it "just to have fun and be safe."

Then, he took the number of $40/month donors the website said they still needed for the area, did the 40 x 12 x #, and said, "I can't see how they still need this many when I can't see how they would have needed that many before they even started!" I told him they were buying stations at break-neck speed and paying cash for them. He said, "But they say they need this much for my station to be fully funded. They say stations might not stay on the air. Those are all lies, aren't they?"

"That's for you to decide. It depends on what you think 'fully-funded' does or should mean."

"If they're saying some stations may not stay on the air, isn't it obvious what they're implying it means? That it's for the operation of that station?"

"As far as I'm concerned, this is all between you and them and you and God. And, by the way, being a legitimate and properly-run charity, they *do* report top and bottom lines...you won't get a ton of detail, but you can find it on the web." He did.

He cut 'em off. Not only did he not pledge for another year, he didn't send in his last two or three months...all with an absolutely clean conscience, he told me.

 

[Voicedude]

I'm sorry that Mr. Ohio has gotten into a lather about this. It was not my intention to start a flame-out.

Please read the original post. Is there anything there at all about what type of elements typify a seeker-sensitive approach? No. Just because a programmer focuses on the core does not mean that it is "indy-fundy, KJV-only, preach-to-the-listener" programming. Formatics was never mentioned or intended to be discussed. Only the fact that a lot of credible evidence that I and some others have had access to indicate that CCM is starting to hemorrage P-1's at an ever-increasing rate.

In the rush to stereotype everything, the point was pretty much missed, and the attempt to clarify the point was further misconstrued. I would hope that a discussion could take place before jumping to conclusions but I guess not. I would suggest (with a smile) that in the future we all try to make certain that the point the poster is trying to make is understood before rising up to accuse.

I hope the "tone" is not offensive, but I won't know since I don't have the gift of determining someone's tone by how they type.

 

[neutral_observer]

> ...a lot of credible evidence that I and some others have had
> access to indicate that CCM is starting to hemorrage P-1's
> at an ever-increasing rate.

What's the story?

 

[radioelizabeth]

Re: On Point

Voice Dude wrote:
"Only the fact that a lot of credible evidence that I and some others have had access to indicate that CCM is starting to hemorrage P-1's at an ever-increasing rate."

"In the rush to stereotype everything, the point was pretty much missed, and the attempt to clarify the point was further misconstrued. I would hope that a discussion could take place before jumping to conclusions but I guess not."

Let's give it another shot...

Care to elaborate on the evidence and the thoughts and where you would like the discussion to go... how we could specifically dialogue on this?

If we are losing P1s in exchange for gaining P3s...well... that is a discussion.

If we are losing P1s in exchange for converting our P2s and P3s...that is also worth discussing...

There is lots there to discuss...

Lets go...


<P ID="signature">______________
RADIOELIZABETH
Pleasant, Passionate, Persuasive
www.radioelizabeth.com</P>

 

[toddohio]

Re: WHY ratings have declined...

Voicedude: referring to me as "Mr. Ohio" sends me a tone of sarcasm...but I won't take it personal this time. Voicedude...you wrote this in a post above:


"This is why CCM numbers have been in serious decline for the past 2 or 3 years. It's what happens when the "seeker-sensitive" approach, one that is causing massive decline in the effectiveness of the local church, comes to radio. Focusing so hard on not offending "seekers" has caused the format to become increasingly less relevant to the core audience. As a former CCM programmer I'm afraid that the format is in danger of becoming fairly irrelevant to the Christian community if it continues on this downgrade."


Voicedude...I think you're assuming that the "seeker-sensitive" approach is RESPONSIBLE for the decline. Let's discuss this together (and with others)...my assumption and opinon for the ratings decline is completely opposite of yours:

1.) A lack of "memorable songs" with great hooks AND < oh boy - here we go> 2.) too much praise and worship music that has dominated over the past 10 years.

Again, this is only my opinion (no scientific research here)...praise and worship music super serves your P1s and does nothing to convert your P2s and P3s to a more loyal listener. P&W music actually can exclude listeners just like the DJs who talk "Christianese." Plus, it's very hard to sing along with a very intimate praise and worship song when your towing around kids who are fighting in the backseat. I realize that I just gave an example that's a huge generalization...but let's discuss...

 

[radioelizabeth]

Re: P/W

toddinohio wrote:
"P&W music actually can exclude listeners just like the DJs who talk "Christianese." Plus, it's very hard to sing along with a very intimate praise and worship song when your towing around kids who are fighting in the backseat. I realize that I just gave an example that's a huge generalization...but let's discuss..."


I'll agree a bit on the P/W... high testing songs perhaps, but I really think this style of music sets a tone, rather than relating to one.

I know all music is like that to some degree...those songs of angst when you are mad at the world work wonders, and the love song that you listen to even though your heart is broken in two....but P/W goes to an even farther extreme...and can cause a reach for scan or seek more times than we might admit.

I may LOVE the song, but that doesn't mean my USAGE of it will justify the heavy spins....so to speak.

e


<P ID="signature">______________
RADIOELIZABETH
Pleasant, Passionate, Persuasive
www.radioelizabeth.com</P>

 

[toddohio]

Re: P/W

>
> I may LOVE the song, but that doesn't mean my USAGE of it
> will justify the heavy spins....so to speak.
>


I think it CAN go beyond that too. Let's say that 15 of your top 20 testing songs are P&W. Now say that you're opting out on the sound code protection for those songs b/c you're going to play the highest testing songs more often. Well...you *could* have 3 P&W songs in a row or 9 in a 30 minute span. Some hours can sound really praisy and other hours can sound just AC. I think there's a consistency issue there. You could sound like two different radio stations.

 

[radioelizabeth]

Re: P/W

toddinohio wrote:
"Let's say that 15 of your top 20 testing songs are P&W."


If 15 out of 20 of your highest testing songs are P/W, then where is the competition for those slots from your standard ACs?

There are many stations that will not spin a song that is not vertical, so labels are under pressure to deliver. Artists also want to be at a place where they have the creative freedom to do the song they feel led to do, or want to do.

But the horizontal song is not the enemy of Christian radio.

Different people have very strong opinions on this one...and sadly, I think that has stunted much of the growth in finding the BEST songs. In many ways, it's a split format when it comes to lyrical content. (not entirely, but you get the point).

There is a way to be both vertical and horizontal...I'd like to hear more of those on my CCM Stations anyday. But again, this is a highly debatable topic...

And great programmers fall on each side of the discussion.


<P ID="signature">______________
RADIOELIZABETH
Pleasant, Passionate, Persuasive
www.radioelizabeth.com</P>

 

[Voicedude]

Re: WHY ratings have declined...

> Voicedude: referring to me as "Mr. Ohio" sends me a tone of
> sarcasm...but I won't take it personal this time.

No sarcasm intended nor anything personal, only trying to be respectful (as much as this format will allow). But you don't have to call me "Mr. Dude". I never intend to be sarcastic since I'm normally on the receiving end...I'm married.

> Voicedude...I think you're assuming that the
> "seeker-sensitive" approach is RESPONSIBLE for the decline.

I don't think it's totally responsible, but I do think it is contributing.

> 1.) A lack of "memorable songs" with great hooks AND < oh
> boy - here we go> 2.) too much praise and worship music that
> has dominated over the past 10 years.

I'm in full agreement on the lack of strong titles. We've also noticed listeners are very aware of lyrical content and find a lot of music today is weak there as well. I think that would explain how Casting Crowns exploded like they did. Their content is strong.

You may very well be right on the P&W although the stations I've worked with only used it to "flavor" the mix, so it's hard for me to make draw a conclusion there from experience.

> Again, this is only my opinion (no scientific research
> here)...praise and worship music super serves your P1s and
> does nothing to convert your P2s and P3s to a more loyal
> listener. P&W music actually can exclude listeners just
> like the DJs who talk "Christianese."

I think too much P&W can be a problem. It turns the format into Inspo. Again, I'll defer in light of what I said above. But you do bring up another aspect of what I'm talking about.

Let's assume for purposes of this discussion that "Christianese" is not part of the equation. I never want that in any form. What we've always advocated is a relevant and real presentation from the talent (and real talent have no problem with that-liner card readers are another story) where they share their faith in a relevant way when appropriate, while sharing "real life" in the context of lives that are driven by their faith. An interesting comment from a focus group of listeners who frequently sampled a particular CCM station concerned why they listened and why they didn't listen to the station more. The respondent said he wanted to "find out a little more about Jesus, but they talk about Jesus more on (dominant Country station) than they do there". There are listeners who are there who want to find out more, but they want to do it privately which they can't do in a church setting. When addressing the core in the fashion mentioned the message works its way "out" from the core while not neglecting those on the "fringes". I hope that explains it a little better. We're not referring to a "narrow" vs. "broad" comparison here, but possible problems with a presentation that aims at being "seeker safe" to the point of neglecting the core. That's where we see the P-1's morphing into P-2's at some point. I hope that explains it better.

>I realize that I just gave an example that's a
>huge generalization...but let's discuss...

(laughing at use of "generalization")

Yes, I'd like to discuss this further. Since terms can mean different things to different people, when we come to agreement on our terminology, it's easier to discuss the subject. I hope I've expressed a little more clearly what I'm trying to say. I usually check this board daily, but I don't have time to participate very often. I just have too much going on right now. I'll try to jump in when I can. I look forward to continuing the dialog.

 

[rbrucecarter]

Re: P/W

I think what everybody is trying to say is that P/W and AC are two different formats. There are songs that crossover between the two - but one cannot program too many PW songs on an AC before it starts sending people to the pushbutton. It is like secular stations trying to mix easy listening and top-40. It just doesn't work. If a station wants to program a lot of PW music, they should do so proudly - announce that is what they are - and not try to pass themselves off as an AC station with appeal to "the whole family". Because they aren't and never will be. A true AC station, I think, should shun PW like the plague unless it is a true crossover. Instead of defaulting to PW when they need a break, they should default to Hot-AC or CHR.

This PW movement has been going on for 10 years and I think it has slowed down the growth of CCM as a format. At one time, it was the fastest growing format in the country. Now - Hispanic and a couple of others are growing faster. If you look really carefully at who is pushing the PW movement - I bet you will find it is the anti-CCM, anti-Christian rock, KJV only types. Somewhere - influencing people in Nashville - I don't know how. But I bet its them somewhere, somehow.

 

[toddohio]

Re: WHY ratings have declined...

Voicedude...okay...I hear you. I understand what you're talking about now. I can see your concern from your perspective too.

Our industry has these challenges to address and overcome.

In conclusion...a Christian station should be a Christian station first...and not "hide" that fact. I agree.

 

[toddohio]

Re: P/W

Bruce...good thoughts...I've come to the conclusion that P&W is either a separate FORMAT or a very strategic song position on your format clock - not freely or randomly incorporated into your AC or CHR station.

 

[gr8oldies]

Re: P/W

Could well be advertiser or donor-influenced, depending on the situation. Seems like CCM could have several constituencies all in competition with each other. Does remeind me of going to work for a "Classic Hits" station in 1989..and the management was still skittish about calling it "Classic Rock" due to percieved advertiser issues..even when we were playing the Scorpions and Skid Row.<P ID="signature">______________
Have a Happy New Year!
http://www.thebig8.net/have_a_happy_new_year_with_cklw.mp3</P>

 

[William_Yeager]

Re: P/W

> Bruce...good thoughts...I've come to the conclusion that P&W
> is either a separate FORMAT or a very strategic song
> position on your format clock - not freely or randomly
> incorporated into your AC or CHR station.
>
I still cringe at the thought of P&W being a separate "genre", although it makes sense that most P&W music would justify being a separate format simply because so much of it has the same sound-either AC or soft AC.

One thing that I also feel is causing P&W to be more of an impairment than it should be on most Christian radio stations is that it's almost always the same songs. There are some Christian AC stations that seem to go out of their way to add covers of worship songs, some of which aren't even by well known CCM artists! Do I really need to hear 3 versions of "Draw Me Close" in one day, especially if I spent the whopping total of 75 minutes listening to the radio?

Although I have to admit, I picked up Jeremy Camp's worship album simply because of his version of "You're Worthy of My Praise"-which I first heard on K-Love of all places.<P ID="signature">______________

</P>

 

[narrowcast]

Re: P/W

> > Bruce...good thoughts...I've come to the conclusion that
> P&W
> > is either a separate FORMAT or a very strategic song
> > position on your format clock - not freely or randomly
> > incorporated into your AC or CHR station.
> >
> I still cringe at the thought of P&W being a separate
> "genre", although it makes sense that most P&W music would
> justify being a separate format simply because so much of it
> has the same sound-either AC or soft AC.
>
> One thing that I also feel is causing P&W to be more of an
> impairment than it should be on most Christian radio
> stations is that it's almost always the same songs. There
> are some Christian AC stations that seem to go out of their
> way to add covers of worship songs, some of which aren't
> even by well known CCM artists! Do I really need to hear 3
> versions of "Draw Me Close" in one day, especially if I
> spent the whopping total of 75 minutes listening to the
> radio?

The P/W phenomonon was pushed along by blindly following music research/callouts without good interpretation of the data. Many P/W songs test very high because of familiarity. "Draw Me Close" is a good example. People who attend church even occasionally have heard it. Give those same people 8 seconds of it and..."yeah, yeah...I know this one...5". So P/W tests well...we'll add tons of P/W. Next thing you know, artists and their record companies realize radio is adding a lot of P/W. So if they want any airplay they better start recording some P/W and so the cycle continues.
>

 

[neutral_observer]

Re: P/W

> The P/W phenomonon was pushed along by blindly following
> music research/callouts without good interpretation of the
> data. Many P/W songs test very high because of familiarity.
> "Draw Me Close" is a good example. People who attend
> church even occasionally have heard it. Give those same
> people 8 seconds of it and..."yeah, yeah...I know this
> one...5". So P/W tests well...we'll add tons of P/W. Next
> thing you know, artists and their record companies realize
> radio is adding a lot of P/W. So if they want any airplay
> they better start recording some P/W and so the cycle
> continues.


I think part of it was to mute and moot the "the songs just say 'you'" arguers....