102.7 The Ace

[MarcR]

>>"It is a proven fact that Rock is not a very popular format in NYC, especially if we have more than two rock stations serving the area."<<

I'm sorry but that's the sort of boilerplate opinion you'd find in abundance on the Dentist's board.
Factually speaking, the demographics of New York City in 2007 are changing at a quick pace, with better educated residents (32% of New Yorkers now have at least a bachelor's degree) displacing those with a high school diploma or less, so I don't think you could make a blanket genralization anymore that New York "isn't a Rock town" based on what the reality was 25, or even 13, years ago (yes, I am insinuating that better educated adults are more disposed to listen to rock than rhythmic music).
I believe at least three types of Rock formats are viable today in NYC; an adult rock or AAA station (if the Chicago and San Francisco markets have them, why can't New York!?), a Rock AC or soft rock station and a classic rock station (which, of course, we already have). As for an Active or Alternative Rock format, the problem arises from the fact that younger people simply aren't listening much to the radio anymore, so the ratings for either probably wouldn't be too promising. The best bet would be to rely on a currents-based station like Z-100 to play some of the biggest hits from those 2 genres.

 

[BACKnUSSR]

>>"It is a proven fact that Rock is not a very popular format in NYC, especially if we have more than two rock stations serving the area."<<

I'm sorry but that's the sort of boilerplate opinion you'd find in abundance on the Dentist's board.
Factually speaking, the demographics of New York City in 2007 are changing at a quick pace, with better educated residents (32% of New Yorkers now have at least a bachelor's degree) displacing those with a high school diploma or less, so I don't think you could make a blanket genralization anymore that New York "isn't a Rock town" based on what the reality was 25, or even 13, years ago (yes, I am insinuating that better educated adults are more disposed to listen to rock than rhythmic music).
I believe at least three types of Rock formats are viable today in NYC; an adult rock or AAA station (if the Chicago and San Francisco markets have them, why can't New York!?), a Rock AC or soft rock station and a classic rock station (which, of course, we already have). As for an Active or Alternative Rock format, the problem arises from the fact that younger people simply aren't listening much to the radio anymore, so the ratings for either probably wouldn't be too promising. The best bet would be to rely on a currents-based station like Z-100 to play some of the biggest hits from those 2 genres.

Well then use your own data. Rock has never been viable in New York over the past decade. Everyone of those formats has been tried and failed in New York City. Now that those "younger listeners" didnt embrace WXRK, what makes you believe that now that they've grown up, they want to hear those songs NOW in a format similar to KFOG or WXRT?
Secondly, an increase in the college graduation rate has never been a cause for a rise in rock listenership. So your insinuation is factually incorrect. Besides does the 32% (as you claim) really "displace" the 68%?
Thirdly, Z-100 already tried that experiment in the 90's when the audience had "changed". It was
a horrible failure, and the station regained its stature when it returned to its pure-pop origins.
Finally, the ethnic change in New York in the past few years has been drastic. More so than in any period since the turn of the century. These new listeners seem to gravitate toward rhythmic formats which is why New York's aggregate listenership in these formats is larger than could ever be supported previously. WLTW, WPLJ, WAXQ and WCBS are more than adequate to fill the needs of the (non-active) passive rock listener at the moment with a mix of everything from the Beatles to Nickelback and Def Leppard to the Doobie Brothers.

 

[p_herring]

It is a proven fact that Rock is not a very popular format in NYC, especially if we have more than two rock stations serving the area.

Twenty five yerars ago we had WNEW-FM, WPLJ and in the summer of 1982 WAPP wasa born. A year later WPLJ became a Top 40 on June 30th.

After WPLJ dropped out of rock, New York hasn't had three successful rock formatted stations. When we had three, one failed and switched.WNEW-FM lost its battle with WAXQ-1043.




Thanks,
Kevin L. Sealy

There was a time approximately 10 years ago, when K-Rock was Alternative (and sounded like a good streamlined major market Alternative, like sister station KROQ in LA), WAXQ was a Hard Rocker for those with edgier tastes, and even WHTZ was in on it by going heavy on Modern Rock tracks. At the time, the market was saturated with current rock and it was inevitable that some stations would fail with competition like this.

A few years later, K-Rock lost their focus and became a jumbled mess of a station. No one that liked the station in the mid '90s could bear to listen to this dreadful hybrid of frat boy music (Limp Bizkit, Linkin Park), forklift driver rock (Led Zeppelin, Aerosmith) and only the safest rock acts of the '90s (Nirvana, Pearl Jam). WHTZ had reverted back to a straight-up CHR presentation, throwing its weight behind the once-again burgeoning bubblegum movement. And WAXQ? They were full-on trucker rock, 24/7. But they managed to trump their very similar sounding competition, WNEW - the only difference between the two stations was that 'NEW managed to throw in about 5 or 10 currents.

Fast forward to the present. K-Rock, after an ill-advised attempt to completely co-opt the sound of its fallen comrade WNEW as "K-Rock: Great Rock Period", became a Hot Talker in Free-FM ... nevermind the fact that the format crashed and burned as a successor to 'NEW on 102.7, and continues to disappoint to this day. WHTZ still plays the sounds that are popular with the kids today, which are basically self-absorbed pop (Pussycat Dolls, Gwen Stefani) and "I'm richer than you" hip hop (Ludacris, Jibbs and a slew of "Young" rappers). And WAXQ continues to slam the same 200 or so songs into the ground that they have played ever since the format switch. There is no other Rock station in town, not even one that plays any Currents whatsoever. Would you like to hear Disturbed, Korn or System Of A Down? How about The Strokes, Muse or Radiohead? Well then, you're out of luck - the programmers in NYC could care less about folks like you. If you love soft rock or new-school bling-obsessed hip hop, though, you can consider the George Washington Bridge and the Lincoln Tunnel as the gateways to Heaven.

NYC needs at least one station that plays current-based rock music - either Active, Alternative, or some permutation thereof. Just keep it from sounding like the awful mess that was K-Rock, which not only had terrible selection but played those same songs to death - they kept things as tight as your average "hit music" station, for crying out loud! I guarantee that this will perform better than Free, Jack or Fresh. CBS needs to realize that K-Rock fell out of favor not because of the format, but because of the way it was managed. There are other stations out there that could be doing better (*cough* WPLJ *cough*) - maybe they ought to consider a format change.

Yeah, this pretty much sums it up. The question is could a rock/alternative station exist in NYC that plays the likes of Korn, Disturbed, SOAD as well as Strokes, Radiohead and Muse?

 

[Brooklyndon]

that rock station playing soad, korns, disturbed, disturbed, the strokes, the killers, had better also play cypress hill, franz ferdinand, outkast, jay-z, the isley brothers, van halen, david bowie, snoop dogg, motley crue, and pretty much every other hot rap/rock song/artist between 1967 and now. Free form radio with no racial/agewise boundaries becasue they are absent from the new generation.

 

[p_herring]

that rock station playing soad, korns, disturbed, disturbed, the strokes, the killers, had better also play cypress hill, franz ferdinand, outkast, jay-z, the isley brothers, van halen, david bowie, snoop dogg, motley crue, and pretty much every other hot rap/rock song/artist between 1967 and now. Free form radio with no racial/agewise boundaries becasue they are absent from the new generation.

Sorry, not going to work. The listener that wants to haer Korn and SOAD does NOT want to hear The Isley Brothers, Snoop Dogg and vice versa. The hair metal really doesn't work either, well, actually on a straight-up Active Rocker it does. Part of the problem with K-Rock was they were confused as to whether they were an Active Rocker (as they would play Creed, Disturbed, Metallica), Alternative (Nirvana, Beck, Killers, Mighty Mighty Bosstones) or just straight up AOR (Van Halen, Led Zeppelin, Guns N' Roses). Believe or not, rock fans are segmented. While I think an alternative/rock/active rock station should be eclectic, mixing in too much just makes for confused listeners and shotty ratings.

 

[Brooklyndon]

i'd like to see the market research showing rock fans as segmented.

 

[SoulCrusher]

If NYC were to have a Rock station, it needs to be either Active Rock or Alternative. It can't be the jumbled "all things to all people" approach that K-Rock tried during the late '90s / early '00s. Basically, if you're going to play Beck, you can't play Van Halen, and visa versa. Active and Alternative share some artists in common (Nirvana, Pearl Jam, Alice In Chains, Korn, Breaking Benjamin, Three Days Grace, Seether, etc.). Play these acts and embellish accordingly depending on what path you choose. The safer bet would be Alternative since WAXQ has a firm grasp on the Classic Rock audience, and it would be tougher to reach out to them. Target young males without making them your main focus, which is the mistake K-Rock made by slamming bands like Limp Bizkit and Linkin Park in incessantly. Play a diverse library of songs and make a proactive effort to find out what the audience wants. I can see this station easily topping 6 or 7 commercial FMs in NYC, if programmed the right way.

 

[Hardrocker9]

Would a good example of that be the K-Rock up in Syracuse? They seem to be mostlly modern rock with some alternative and 90's grunge rock thrown in. To me it seems to be a well programed rock station. Their phrase seems to be, "the rock you live on" I'd like to think that this approach to a K-rock station would work in NY. Very little or no classic rock thrown in, and no overplaying Limp bizkit, or cypress hill.

 

[p_herring]

Would a good example of that be the K-Rock up in Syracuse? They seem to be mostlly modern rock with some alternative and 90's grunge rock thrown in. To me it seems to be a well programed rock station. Their phrase seems to be, "the rock you live on" I'd like to think that this approach to a K-rock station would work in NY. Very little or no classic rock thrown in, and no overplaying Limp bizkit, or cypress hill.

K-Rock in Syracuse is basically Active Rock reporting as Alternative.