P
ponderosaAZ
Guest
noted that it's been granted, what's the story? How far east will they go during critical hours?!
-
Get involved.
We want your input!
Apply for Membership and join the conversations about everything related to broadcasting.
After we receive your registration, a moderator will review it. After your registration is approved, you will be permitted to post.
If you use a disposable or false email address, your registration will be rejected.
After your membership is approved, please take a minute to tell us a little bit about yourself.
https://www.radiodiscussions.com/forums/introduce-yourself.1088/
Thanks in advance and have fun!
RadioDiscussions Administrators
noted that it's been granted, what's the story? How far east will they go during critical hours?!
S
SeattleRadioPro
Guest
ponderosaAZ said:
Not far enough to be a ratings powerhouse.
P
ponderosaAZ
Guest
SeattleRadioPro said:
Huh? you didn't answer my question, and ratings depend on a lot more besides the signal. Are they now running on their new pattern? In terms non-engineer types will understand, they're "kind of" turning the pattern around, with less energy "wasted" on the Olympic Peninsula/Bellingham, and more energy directed east on I-90 to Issaquah/North Bend/Sammammish, and SE/S to the kent valley/maple valley/puyallup/etc. 2300mV/m is the daytime field strength at 1km in these directions, versus a previous field strength of about 800mV/m While that does not triple 1090's distance in these directions, it certainly fills in some if not much of the area covered by KIRO,KOMO,KVI at 7.5mV/m How much territory does it fill in?!
K
Kelly
Guest
I spent about five minutes looking at the CP for KPTK. Based on the quick look, it appears that they increased the lobe to the East in the day, but it is rather oddly shaped with odd squared-off corners. Obviously the change stands to increase the daytime field strength to the East. It will be interesting to see if they can create the new day pattern with just three towers. I suspect there will be further augmentations filed as the CP is tested. The power to the East has to come from somewhere, and Larry will be upset because some will be from the Northern lobe. With the station located on the Southern end of Vashon, the reduction to the North may be pretty noticeable.
The night seems little changed, but that makes sense because of the station being hemmed-in. There was one monitor point that they've been trying to get rid of for years, so I suspect this CP takes care of that issue. I just didn't spend enough time looking at the details.
Remember, you also can't always compare theoretical RMS field strength at 1kM as a benchmark for how the station performs signal-wise in a market. Its all about field strength where population exists. And whereas this CP would increase field strength over the core population area of Seattle and the East Side during the day, the 1090 antenna system isn't very efficient. But, that being said, every little bit helps too.
The night seems little changed, but that makes sense because of the station being hemmed-in. There was one monitor point that they've been trying to get rid of for years, so I suspect this CP takes care of that issue. I just didn't spend enough time looking at the details.
Remember, you also can't always compare theoretical RMS field strength at 1kM as a benchmark for how the station performs signal-wise in a market. Its all about field strength where population exists. And whereas this CP would increase field strength over the core population area of Seattle and the East Side during the day, the 1090 antenna system isn't very efficient. But, that being said, every little bit helps too.
One could add that ANY changes made in the last 20 years to 1090's transmitter HAVE ALREADY been a great success.
1090 was one of the WORST signals in the area for years. In the 80s it was unlistenable during the day if any hour. And at night the Mexian interference was unreal.
Even today it sounds a LOT better.
1090 was one of the WORST signals in the area for years. In the 80s it was unlistenable during the day if any hour. And at night the Mexian interference was unreal.
Even today it sounds a LOT better.
Kelly said:
Well, in Bellingham, we have KBAI 930 for Progressive Talk and they blast B'Ham accordingly. But KBAI disappears on all but the most sensitive radios (and even my old truck's AM radio struggles with 930 by the time we get to the northern outskirts of Burlington. You can barely get KBAI at all in Mount Vernon.)
Regardless, I have yet to hear how dramatic the change will be. I think it will be as bad as 770 and you can get 770 fairly in Mount Vernon in daytime hours.
KPTK is one of the strongest Seattle daytime signals on AM up here (beating KIRO and KVI with ease and almost as strong as KOMO) and to lose a little signal strength won't be too painful to most lefty Skagitonians. But why on earth put so much punch into "enemy" territory. I didn't think there were many lefty types there in the Elephantside. And second, KPTK got a lot of advertising $$$ from businesses in Anacortes and even Bellingham in the last few years. Why mess with that?
The only real daytime benefit I see with KPTK's sharp turn to the right (signal wise) may be more Central and Eastern Washington folks tuning in. KPTK comes in modestly in Ellensburg and along I-90 until you get over the Vantage bridge, then it disappears completely.
Bongwater said:
On a footnote: KWDB 1110 ought to be ecstactic. This was something they've been secretly wishing for for years. In many areas, 1090's powerful daytime wave in the north end pretty much wipes KWDB out on the upper Peninsula and parts of the San Juans. With 1090 receeding their north end coverage by a few dBs, it's 1110's gain.
I'm just hoping the shift isn't too dramatic. It could backfire if almost no signal at all gets in Mount Vernon (like KVI.)
P
ponderosaAZ
Guest
Bongewater wrote:
"But why on earth put so much punch into "enemy" territory. I didn't think there were many lefty types there in the Elephantside. And second, KPTK got a lot of advertising $$$ from businesses in Anacortes and even Bellingham in the last few years. Why mess with that?
eastern King, eastern Pierce, for years have been refuges for hundreds of thousands of people in young families and singles seeking affordable housing - Seattle/Everett/Burien/DesMoines/Bellevue/etc. are too expensive. Look at how the Hilltop neighborhood in Tacoma and Kent are now hip places to live. I did this population study and the following towns have poor daytime reception (likely below 10mV/m):
The new 1090 daytime pattern covers rapidly growing suburbs ..... with liberal folks moving out of seattle/bellevue... Federal Way (82K), Kent (85K), Auburn (46K), Puyallup (36K), Sumner (10K), Maple Valley , Enumclaw (11K), Black Diamond, Bonney Lake (14K), Issaquah (15K), N. Bend (5K), Orting (5K) Sammammish (34K), "South Hill" (still unincorporated, tens of thousands), among many other incorporated and unincorporated places. There's a new housing development in Bonney Lake, I think it's falling water: http://www.evergreenstatebuilders.com/esbFW/
going in right now that will support it's either 250,000 homes or 250,000 people!
With the new pattern, 1090 at 50kW will have the best *daytime* pattern in the market, other than KIRO,KTTH,KOMO,KVI.
Source: 2006 Rand McNally road atlas with population based on the "latest available census, or are census bureau or rand mcnally estimates"
"But why on earth put so much punch into "enemy" territory. I didn't think there were many lefty types there in the Elephantside. And second, KPTK got a lot of advertising $$$ from businesses in Anacortes and even Bellingham in the last few years. Why mess with that?
eastern King, eastern Pierce, for years have been refuges for hundreds of thousands of people in young families and singles seeking affordable housing - Seattle/Everett/Burien/DesMoines/Bellevue/etc. are too expensive. Look at how the Hilltop neighborhood in Tacoma and Kent are now hip places to live. I did this population study and the following towns have poor daytime reception (likely below 10mV/m):
The new 1090 daytime pattern covers rapidly growing suburbs ..... with liberal folks moving out of seattle/bellevue... Federal Way (82K), Kent (85K), Auburn (46K), Puyallup (36K), Sumner (10K), Maple Valley , Enumclaw (11K), Black Diamond, Bonney Lake (14K), Issaquah (15K), N. Bend (5K), Orting (5K) Sammammish (34K), "South Hill" (still unincorporated, tens of thousands), among many other incorporated and unincorporated places. There's a new housing development in Bonney Lake, I think it's falling water: http://www.evergreenstatebuilders.com/esbFW/
going in right now that will support it's either 250,000 homes or 250,000 people!
With the new pattern, 1090 at 50kW will have the best *daytime* pattern in the market, other than KIRO,KTTH,KOMO,KVI.
Source: 2006 Rand McNally road atlas with population based on the "latest available census, or are census bureau or rand mcnally estimates"
Bongwater said:
OK, I'm back,
Enumclaw, Auburn, Black Diamond and all those areas have had a LOT of development in the last few years - too much really. And I can see the point of wanting a better signal out there. But I kinda think it's still robbing Peter to pay Paul. Because 1090 is taking a gamble with a lot of it's loyal listeners from Bremerton on north to the San Juans, Skagit and Whatcom Counties (Or at least in areas of Whatcom County where KBAI don't shine.)
Like I said, I don't think the downgrade up here will be too dramatic (which may be like the president saying "Mission Accomplished".) If it is, CBS Seattle WILL hear about it. There's a hard core of KPTK listeners up here.
I don't see much point in directionalizing the signal so much that nobody north of Lynnwood can get it. Areas north of Seattle STILL have bigger population densities than the Southeast side and because it's trendy now doesn't mean it's going to stay like this. Some subdivision areas of the Eastside that were built in the '90s are starting to get that Beirut look with all the vandalism. And don't even get me started on Wallingford, Greenwood and other areas around Seattle. They might have moved down there to escape it all and it's cheap. But sooner or later when it gets big enough, society's problems will move there too. Then they will move away again, often to reclaim an area they left behind, gentrify it. And then find another sparsely populated area to overdevelop. And the cycle continues ad nauseum....
Will 1090's signal follow them?
K
Kelly
Guest
Having spent a fair amount of time over the years working on local AM's, (one being 1090), that have significant pattern nulls to populated areas at night which don't exist in the day, having a high daytime field strength in one mode, then gone at 5PM in October can create serious listener-relations issues.
In rural communities, a local Class C, or Class D AM can get away with going off at sunset because; A), You're the only game in town, and; B), They pretty much roll up the streets for business after 6PM anyway.
Over the years I've had my fair share of bad phone calls and E-mails from angry listeners who expect the same signal they hear clearly during the day at night. You try to explain the whole directional-at-night thing, but the average listener doesn't buy the story, nor do they care. They just want to hear the programming on the station no matter what or when when they press that particular radio button. In fact one could argue that the steady decline of AM listening, beyond the poor audio quality through a typical receiver, losing the signal in a tunnel or in a building, and reduced programming choices, could be attributed to the bipolar signal effects of mode change.
This unfortunate byproduct of the "E-layer" in our atmosphere also drives program directors nuts as compared with FM, (or the few non-directional AM's out there). Can you imagine trying to program some form of popular night programming on your station, then lose approximately 25% of your population at night?
In rural communities, a local Class C, or Class D AM can get away with going off at sunset because; A), You're the only game in town, and; B), They pretty much roll up the streets for business after 6PM anyway.
Over the years I've had my fair share of bad phone calls and E-mails from angry listeners who expect the same signal they hear clearly during the day at night. You try to explain the whole directional-at-night thing, but the average listener doesn't buy the story, nor do they care. They just want to hear the programming on the station no matter what or when when they press that particular radio button. In fact one could argue that the steady decline of AM listening, beyond the poor audio quality through a typical receiver, losing the signal in a tunnel or in a building, and reduced programming choices, could be attributed to the bipolar signal effects of mode change.
This unfortunate byproduct of the "E-layer" in our atmosphere also drives program directors nuts as compared with FM, (or the few non-directional AM's out there). Can you imagine trying to program some form of popular night programming on your station, then lose approximately 25% of your population at night?
- Status