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1090 NIGHTIME PROBLEM
- Thread starter KFNNradioFan
- Start date
w9wi said:
Thanks for the information and links. This memo is dated 6/29/09.
I'll have to print it and read it and see about AM translators; Albuquerque/KKOB-AM has a translator in Santa Fe (50 miles away) that only operates at night due to KKOB's nightime directional pattern protecting NYC.
Can FM translators only operate at night? If so, perhaps the 2mV/m requirement could be waived if the translator was in some exotic location somewhere near Enumclaw or east of Issaquah.
There is a station up in Flagstaff Arizona AM 600 news/talk that simulcasts on FM.
Now that this simulcasting can be arranged, there are many candidates in sprawling areas such as Phoenix, Seattle, that is, if there's space on the dial.
KFNNradioFan said:
That's an experimental synchronous repeater; check the ones used by WAPA 680 and WISO 1260 in Puerto Rico.
The KKOB synch operation runs night only as in the daytime it would interfere with the nondirectional day signal of the mothership. It is authorized to operate all hours (unlimited) but choses not to.
FM has the same propagation by day as by night. The question is unwarranted and naive.
There are hundreds of AM FM simulcasts now. There are also AM AM simulcasts and FM FM and even FM FM FM simulcasts in the same market.
Phoenix already has these... KOMR/KQMR/KKMR, KVVA and KDVA, etc. There is nothing new here.
KFNNradioFan said:
From a legal standpoint, there is no such thing as an AM translator. As David says, the KKOB Santa Fe relay (and the two Puerto Rico operations he cites) holds an experimental license; it doesn't fit into any existing category of stations.
The linked regulations cover translators operating on the FM band. Until this summer, translators on the FM band could only relay FM stations. (or other FM translators) The FCC had begun fairly frequently waiving that regulation about 2-3 years ago; this summer's proceeding allowed the routine use of FM translators by AM stations. (with restrictions as cited in the link)
No, with two exceptions more or less, and they aren't really technically translators.
AM stations near Jackson, Miss. and Nashville, Tenn. received special authority to build FM translators in the 1980s, when Radio Marti went on the air and Cuba retaliated with high-powered broadcasts interfering with U.S. operations. Since the Cuban interference only existed at night, the FM translators were only allowed to operate at night. The translator in Nashville is still operating. (even though these days, by far the primary source of interference to their AM facility is Chicago.....) I'm pretty sure I heard the Mississippi operation last winter when I was down there.
I think waiver of the 2mV/m requirement is VERY unlikely. It would be a loophole that could provide the seed for national commercial "LPFM" networks similar to what religious organizations have done with FM translators. I don't think the FCC is very fond of what's happened with the non-commercial operations. (but knows it would be politically impossible to stuff the genie back in the bottle) They're not going to risk creating the same thing on the commercial side.
Do note that the FCC rules also limit the ability to relay an AM station to translators that already existed as of {some date this spring/summer}.
This will be a significant limit on the use of FM translators by large market AM stations. There aren't that many existing translators in large cities, many of those that do exist are relaying FM stations and aren't interested in changing, and you can't apply for a new one if you want it to relay an AM.
But there are some. And you can move an existing translator in another city. One recently moved about 30 miles south into Milwaukee to relay a daytime-only AM there.
Bill Wolfenbarger said:
In my head it's the voice of Mr. Ed screaming "Stop it, Wilbur"!!!
[quote author=DavidEduardo
FM has the same propagation by day as by night. The question is unwarranted and naive.
Geeeeez, dude. Chill out. Like you think I don't already KNOW this info. You know, if I was still in school and asked a question, would you call it "unwarranted," and at the same time call me "naive?"
Of COURSE FM has the same propagation day and night! WHAT I MEANT is that perhaps an FM trans for KPTK-AM (1090) could be turned on ONLY at night, just as KKOB-Santa Fe is only on at night. And, in contrast to YOU, sir, someone below answered POLITELY, giving two examples of where this is the case.
FM has the same propagation by day as by night. The question is unwarranted and naive.
Geeeeez, dude. Chill out. Like you think I don't already KNOW this info. You know, if I was still in school and asked a question, would you call it "unwarranted," and at the same time call me "naive?"
Of COURSE FM has the same propagation day and night! WHAT I MEANT is that perhaps an FM trans for KPTK-AM (1090) could be turned on ONLY at night, just as KKOB-Santa Fe is only on at night. And, in contrast to YOU, sir, someone below answered POLITELY, giving two examples of where this is the case.
quote author=w9wi link=topic=158781.msg1357453#msg1357453 date=1262096519
Scientist - to scientist, thanks, w9wi, for politely and articulately updating all the latest in response to my quest for continuing education in the expanding era of translators . . .
Scientist - to scientist, thanks, w9wi, for politely and articulately updating all the latest in response to my quest for continuing education in the expanding era of translators . . .
No night time signal problems on Vashon! I think the money pockets on Vashon Island should pool together and buy 1090 for Vashon to be its own little public station. I know for a fact 1090 covers Vashon Maury Island very well even at night! No signal fading when you get to the shoreline of the island like LPFM. Strong enough to be heard in our neighbor communities, Gig Harbor, Tacoma, Port Orchard, Burien, Federal way and even Seattle.
I’m sure the programming would go a little left from where it is. Ferry updates every 20 minutes sprinkled with advertisers like Glacier Northwest and editorial commentary on why Glacier shouldn’t expand its mining operation on Maury Island. Vashon could use the station to connect with the “Thought full Tourist” and spread the Vashon Brand.
I know for a fact Vashon has some radio talent living there.
Run the transmitter on a mix of Bio fuel, Solar power and Wind generators installed on the three towers (I’m sure it will work on a critical directional array shared by two stations).
What is 1090 worth$$$
I’m sure the programming would go a little left from where it is. Ferry updates every 20 minutes sprinkled with advertisers like Glacier Northwest and editorial commentary on why Glacier shouldn’t expand its mining operation on Maury Island. Vashon could use the station to connect with the “Thought full Tourist” and spread the Vashon Brand.
I know for a fact Vashon has some radio talent living there.
Run the transmitter on a mix of Bio fuel, Solar power and Wind generators installed on the three towers (I’m sure it will work on a critical directional array shared by two stations).
What is 1090 worth$$$
What happened to the island station (LPFM, I think?) that is/was located somewhere near the KJR tower but on the main Vashon N/S highway?
Vashon never got their LPFM application approved. So nothing was ever built. I think when they actually applied the tower was closer to where the landfill (dump ) is on public land (they were going to put up a tower or Pole). I did recommend to them that it would be just as easy and cost about the same to just mount the LPFM antenna to the KJR center tower behind the old K2 factory. The engineering would cost more putting it on a directional array. But they would not have to erect a tower and bring in power for a totally new site which would bring its own costs.
Some one put up a signal on 89.1fm at 125 watt ERP vertical signal only from a stout tree at Paradise Ridge Park for a while until visited by the FCC. When that signal was running reception at the ferry docks was bad as well as many shoreline locations. But it got out to Burien, Tacoma water front the I-5 drive from South center hill into Tacoma. It proved you couldn’t hit the inland Island and the surrounding shoreline of Vashon and Maury Island. There is no way a 100 watt LPFM no matter how well built, will cover the interior of Vashon Island and its shore line. 1090 am does cover both the interior and shoreline of both Islands (Vashon-Maury).
Some one put up a signal on 89.1fm at 125 watt ERP vertical signal only from a stout tree at Paradise Ridge Park for a while until visited by the FCC. When that signal was running reception at the ferry docks was bad as well as many shoreline locations. But it got out to Burien, Tacoma water front the I-5 drive from South center hill into Tacoma. It proved you couldn’t hit the inland Island and the surrounding shoreline of Vashon and Maury Island. There is no way a 100 watt LPFM no matter how well built, will cover the interior of Vashon Island and its shore line. 1090 am does cover both the interior and shoreline of both Islands (Vashon-Maury).
Bill Wolfenbarger said:
Depends on how the translator licensed. If it's licensed to "Bob Smith".. It doesn't matter where it is as long as it's at.. AM or FM.. I just went through this here in my market.
Can you clarify what you mean? I am not aware of any provision in FCC rules for a non-fill-in FM transator for an AM station. FM translators can be owned by independent community organizations and rebroadcast an FM station outside of its contour, as long as there is no business/financial connection between the FM station licensee and the FM translator licensee.rockradio1017 said:
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