1110 and 107.9 Legal ID. Observations and questions

[amos1001]

First of all I admit it's been years since I was directly involved with anything involving any station's legality. So I realize that things may have changed. But I've always heard that for a station to have a stand-alone set of call letters it either had to be on AM or there was no AM with those calls. WHTZ Newark, WSTR Smyrna, WLNK Charlotte, WLKQ Hickory. If an AM existed with the calls none of those stations could have held them without the -FM suffix. Therefore, there simply cannot be a WXXX-AM set of calls. The call letters, followed by the city of license. Yes, there are things that CAN go between but that's not what is happening.
So what is Urban One doing with WBT? Is it possible that they are planning on moving the ACTUAL WBT calls to the FM, not WBT-FM? I can't imagine them taking the legendary calls away from 1110, but today's operators don't seem to care, and that's not really new. WNBC>WFAN, WCBS>WHSQ for example. And there are many more.
If you've tuned in, I'm sure you've heard their TOH. WBT Charlotte, WBT-AM, Charlotte. Have Station ID rules changed? Or is this operator as clueless as that sounds? I thought the Legal Station Identification should be (during simulcast) WBT-Charlotte, WBT-FM Charlotte. Also related, isn't HD-1 required on the HD-1 channel? Is WBT-FM and HD-1 Charlotte correct? Or is WBT-FM Charlotte legally enough? Anyway, I've listened a few times, hoping I was misunderstanding the ID. But it clearly says WBT Charlotte, WBT-AM Charlotte.

 

[K.M. Richards]

Therefore, there simply cannot be a WXXX-AM set of calls.

You are correct. There is no such thing as a callsign with the suffix "-AM".

So what is Urban One doing with WBT? Is it possible that they are planning on moving the ACTUAL WBT calls to the FM, not WBT-FM?

Part of the answer involves the fact that a three-letter call, all by itself, cannot be on a FM. Radio One can drop the WBT from the AM, but the FM will still be WBT-FM. A good example is in San Diego, where the KGB call letters were dropped from their original station back in the 1980s, but KGB-FM still has those call letters, with the "-FM" suffix.

I can't imagine them taking the legendary calls away from 1110, but today's operators don't seem to care, and that's not really new. WNBC>WFAN, WCBS>WHSQ for example.

The first instance occurred because NBC sold 660 to Emmis, which moved the WFAN format and calls there. In that case, because NBC still owned WNBC-TV/4, the calls could no longer be used on both.

The second case was due to a clause in the original merging of CBS Radio with Entercom (now Audacy). The WCBS call letters were only allowed to be used so long as the original format was retained. The calls were changed to WHSQ because the news format was dropped.

So your examples are not cases of "operators don't seem to care". There are legalities involved, and unless you take the time to research and educate yourself on them, your statements will be open to being proven wrong.

If you've tuned in, I'm sure you've heard their TOH. WBT Charlotte, WBT-AM, Charlotte. Have Station ID rules changed? Or is this operator as clueless as that sounds?

Again, since there is no such thing as a "WBT-AM", that's not a legal ID. If that is what they are using, then they are not legally identifying WBT-FM.

I thought the Legal Station Identification should be (during simulcast) WBT-Charlotte, WBT-FM Charlotte.

In a case like this, where the stations share the base call and the community of license, "WBT-AM & FM Charlotte" is also legal. ln this instance, the "-AM" is used for clarification that both the AM & FM have the base call. "WBT, WBT-FM Charlotte" is also legal.

Also related, isn't HD-1 required on the HD-1 channel? Is WBT-FM and HD-1 Charlotte correct? Or is WBT-FM Charlotte legally enough?

Yes, you can say "WBT-FM & HD-1 Charlotte" and yes, the primary stream must be identified. Technically, "WBT-AM-FM-HD1 Charlotte" is also legal.

Here is a link to the actual rule on station identification:

Federal Register :: Request Access

www.ecfr.gov

 

[amos1001]

You are correct. There is no such thing as a callsign with the suffix "-AM".



Part of the answer involves the fact that a three-letter call, all by itself, cannot be on a FM. Radio One can drop the WBT from the AM, but the FM will still be WBT-FM. A good example is in San Diego, where the KGB call letters were dropped from their original station back in the 1980s, but KGB-FM still has those call letters, with the "-FM" suffix.



The first instance occurred because NBC sold 660 to Emmis, which moved the WFAN format and calls there. In that case, because NBC still owned WNBC-TV/4, the calls could no longer be used on both.

The second case was due to a clause in the original merging of CBS Radio with Entercom (now Audacy). The WCBS call letters were only allowed to be used so long as the original format was retained. The calls were changed to WHSQ because the news format was dropped.

So your examples are not cases of "operators don't seem to care". There are legalities involved, and unless you take the time to research and educate yourself on them, your statements will be open to being proven wrong.



Again, since there is no such thing as a "WBT-AM", that's not a legal ID. If that is what they are using, then they are not legally identifying WBT-FM.



In a case like this, where the stations share the base call and the community of license, "WBT-AM & FM Charlotte" is also legal. ln this instance, the "-AM" is used for clarification that both the AM & FM have the base call. "WBT, WBT-FM Charlotte" is also legal.



Yes, you can say "WBT-FM & HD-1 Charlotte" and yes, the primary stream must be identified. Technically, "WBT-AM-FM-HD1 Charlotte" is also legal.

Here is a link to the actual rule on station identification:

Federal Register :: Request Access

www.ecfr.gov

I've never heard that a 3 letter call could not be a stand alone FM. I thought that if they changed 1110 to something else, 107.9 could be WBT Charlotte. That seems an odd rule, but ok. WBTV has kind of an odd not quite 3 letter call sign, not WBT-TV. Unrelated of course, but interesting to me.

I see what you mean about heritage calls, WNBC, WCBS etc. Yes there are other reasons they have to change. I seem to remember that I had known that, but forgot.

As for the WBT AM & FM Charlotte being legal, I remember some stations doing that in the past (WBBQ AM & FM, Augusta) but I always thought that while not technically legal, it was within the spirit of the law, and the FCC simply had bigger fish to fry. I never knew it was actually legal.

But WBT- AM Charlotte isn't identifying ANYTHING. Plus, 107.9 is operating without a legal ID, both main channel and HD-1. Maybe it's just an oversight.

 

[fybush]

You absolutely can have a bare three-letter call on an FM.

KUT Austin is the first one that comes to mind. KDB Santa Barbara. There are likely others.

So yes, Radio One could change the calls of 1110 and put "WBT" by itself on FM, but for now the correct calls are WBT for 1110 and WBT-FM for 107.9.

 

[Ex-RadioTV]

Part of the answer involves the fact that a three-letter call, all by itself, cannot be on a FM.

FM’s with 3-letter calls and no “-FM” suffix do exist.

• KDB Santa Barbara
• KSD St. Louis
• KUT Austin
• WRR Dallas

 

[amos1001]

You absolutely can have a bare three-letter call on an FM.

KUT Austin is the first one that comes to mind. KDB Santa Barbara. There are likely others.

So yes, Radio One could change the calls of 1110 and put "WBT" by itself on FM, but for now the correct calls are WBT for 1110 and WBT-FM for 107.9.

thanks Scott.

 

[amos1001]

FM’s with 3-letter calls and no “-FM” suffix do exist.

• KDB Santa Barbara
• KSD St. Louis
• KUT Austin
• WRR Dallas

thanks

 

[fybush]

Having said all that, the FCC barely cares about legal IDs at all these days, and there's nobody at the Commission who's as concerned as some of us on the boards are about the exact form of the ID, especially when it comes to suffixes. Plenty of stations say "WXXX-AM" and none has ever been penalized that I can find. And the "WXXX AM & FM" form of ID has been used since the 50s without FCC criticism.

 

[kevtronics]

Technically, "WBT-AM-FM-HD1 Charlotte" is also legal.

WNYC uses the hourly ID "WNYC-AM, FM, and HD1 New York".

 

[K.M. Richards]

KDB Santa Barbara.

I must have missed that. Which is surprising since I spent most of my career in both the Santa Barbara and Oxnard/Ventura markets.

Of course, as Scott later said:

Having said all that, the FCC barely cares about legal IDs at all these days ...

I have talked with several people in the industry who believe the FCC will do away with 73.1201 before too much longer. We are one of the very few countries that still require same; it made sense back in the days when that was the identity of the local station, but the number of stations that use the call letters as their brand is now the minority (and most of those stations, like WBT -- and yes, KDB -- have heritage call letters).

What sense does it make to toss in a hurried "KYSR Los Angeles" between spots in the last stopset of the hour and then use "Alt 98.7" as the branding everywhere else? (And those calls were actually chosen for the station's previous format and branding as "Star 98.7" anyway.)

Now, if a station wanted to make the call letters prominent, and even proudly do a 73.1201-compliant TOH station identification, let them. Just stop the farce of having it be mandatory.

 

[K.M. Richards]

FM’s with 3-letter calls and no “-FM” suffix do exist.

• KDB Santa Barbara
• KSD St. Louis
• KUT Austin
• WRR Dallas

Another side thought for @fybush to answer: Wasn't there a point in time where the "-FM" suffix was required in these cases? I am certain that KDB-FM and WRR-FM officially had those calls, in that format, for some time after their AMs dropped them.

Also, apologies to @Ex-RadioTV for attributing the quote of the KDB calls to Scott. I do not, for the life of me, know how I did that, since the quote function is formatted by the board software ...

 

[Deleted member 108832]

You are correct. There is no such thing as a callsign with the suffix "-AM".



Part of the answer involves the fact that a three-letter call, all by itself, cannot be on a FM. Radio One can drop the WBT from the AM, but the FM will still be WBT-FM.



The first instance occurred because NBC sold 660 to Emmis, which moved the WFAN format and calls there. In that case, because NBC still owned WNBC-TV/4, the calls could no longer be used on both.

The second case was due to a clause in the original merging of CBS Radio with Entercom (now Audacy). The WCBS call letters were only allowed to be used so long as the original format was retained. The calls were changed to WHSQ because the news format was dropped.

So your examples are not cases of "operators don't seem to care". There are legalities involved, and unless you take the time to research and educate yourself on them, your statements will be open to being proven wrong.



Again, since there is no such thing as a "WBT-AM", that's not a legal ID. If that is what they are using, then they are not legally identifying WBT-FM.



In a case like this, where the stations share the base call and the community of license, "WBT-AM & FM Charlotte" is also legal. ln this instance, the "-AM" is used for clarification that both the AM & FM have the base call. "WBT, WBT-FM Charlotte" is also legal.



Yes, you can say "WBT-FM & HD-1 Charlotte" and yes, the primary stream must be identified. Technically, "WBT-AM-FM-HD1 Charlotte" is also legal.

Here is a link to the actual rule on station identification:

Federal Register :: Request Access

www.ecfr.gov

As mentioned, this is simply not the case. Where Radio Radiates does so without the -FM @ 101 1. Been WRR, without the FM, since 1310 dropped the original 1922 call assignment for K Double A M. All identification of the station is done as "WRR, WRR HD-1 Dallas-Fort Worth".

 

[K.M. Richards]

As mentioned, this is simply not the case. Where Radio Radiates does so without the -FM @ 101 1. Been WRR, without the FM, since 1310 dropped the original 1922 call assignment for K Double A M. All identification of the station is done as "WRR, WRR HD-1 Dallas-Fort Worth".

This totally puzzled me. I remembered the call letter change on the AM, back in 1978, but I did a search of all of the Broadcasting Yearbooks after that, as well as Broadcasting itself, and I cannot find any reference to the "-FM" suffix being dropped from the calls (and officially, that had to be a requested action of the FCC).

I finally found it on the station's history card (thank you, @Michi, for saving those when the Commission stopped providing online access to them as part of the conversion from CDBS to LMS). There is a single reference to that being effective May 18, 1978. So it must have been part of the 1310 call letter change request, but it was never "officially" published.

So I stand corrected, since 1978 is certainly not a "recent development" year.

 

[fybush]

And before that, KUT signed on in 1958 as simply KUT.

 

[K.M. Richards]

Thank you, Scott.

Looking back at it, I believe my own perception was affected by the fact that KGB-FM/101.5 in San Diego never dropped the "-FM" suffix when 1360 became KCNN in 1982 for that disastrous attempt of going "all-News" by running the audio of what was then called CNN2.

And I went back and looked up Santa Barbara again. KDB-FM did indeed drop the suffix at the same time that KDB (AM) became KSPE ... both are referenced in the same issue of Broadcasting (September 24, 1990), in fact. So my memory must be fuzzy, because I could have sworn I saw printed advertising for KDB-FM -- with suffix -- later in that decade.

But, realistically, by 1994 or so I was relying on the former monthly call letter change report from the FCC (which, sadly, was discontinued with the retirement of CDBS), so there's probably a lot of callsign-related stuff that I'm not up to speed on.

 

[Deleted member 108832]

And before that, KUT signed on in 1958 as simply KUT.

This particular case was a little different, no? The University was re-issued the KUT call for the new FM, and allowed the 3 letter call when no others were being assigned, since it had already been the call of the original University-owned AM that Jesse Jones bought and moved to Houston in 1929.

I wasn't a gleam in daddy's eye yet, of course, but given the time period and place where it all went down, I bet that LBJ had more than a little influence on getting the KUT call assigned to 90.5 for UT.

 

[Mediafrog+]

This particular case was a little different, no? The University was re-issued the KUT call for the new FM, and allowed the 3 letter call when no others were being assigned, since it had already been the call of the original University-owned AM that Jesse Jones bought and moved to Houston in 1929.

My memory is fuzzy on this, but Wikipedia says the call was KUT-FM from 1958 to 1982. I listened to the station quite a bit growing up in Austin in the 1960s and early 70s (they had some excellent freeform Prog Rock program blocks) and I seem to remember the -FM suffix.

I wasn't a gleam in daddy's eye yet, of course, but given the time period and place where it all went down, I bet that LBJ had more than a little influence on getting the KUT call assigned to 90.5 for UT.

Picky point, but KUT was originally on 90.7. The dropping of the -FM suffix might have happened about the time of the big power upgrade and frequency move to 90.5.

Like I said, my memory might be off on this. Many years ago.

 

[Deleted member 108832]

My memory is fuzzy on this, but Wikipedia says the call was KUT-FM from 1958 to 1982.

Oh, Wikipedia, you spreader of lies. Like WRR, KUT has always been KUT. I wasn't 100% sure on it, but then Scott Fybush verified it up above.

Picky point, but KUT was originally on 90.7.

The nit was successfully picked, 🐸. You're right.

The dropping of the -FM suffix might have happened about the time of the big power upgrade and frequency move to 90.5.

Like I said, my memory might be off on this. Many years ago.

My only real experience with Austin is high school football playoffs, visiting the Capitol in middle school, those weekend summer nights on 6th Street in 1992, 3, and 4, and a whole lot of passing through it on the journey towards San Antonio or Waco. Your memory has to be far superior to anything I have.

I only know of the KUT call situation from a story told to me by a tong time, now-departed KTRH news staffer, who was alive when Jesse Jones brought the radio station to Houston and set it up at the Rice Hotel. The University requested the return of the KUT call for the station, and I speculated (not too far-fetched, mind you) that Lyndon Johnson had a hand in the call actually being granted in 1958. It certainly wouldn't have been the only string he pulled over his political career.

 

[fybush]

I stand corrected as to KUT. The history cards got the station show that it indeed was KUT-FM from 1958 until the end of the cards ca. 1980.

 

[Mediafrog+]

I stand corrected as to KUT. The history cards got the station show that it indeed was KUT-FM from 1958 until the end of the cards ca. 1980.

I guess my memory is holding up okay after all these years! I was fairly sure of the -FM suffix in those days.

I only know of the KUT call situation from a story told to me by a tong time, now-departed KTRH news staffer, who was alive when Jesse Jones brought the radio station to Houston and set it up at the Rice Hotel. The University requested the return of the KUT call for the station, and I speculated (not too far-fetched, mind you) that Lyndon Johnson had a hand in the call actually being granted in 1958. It certainly wouldn't have been the only string he pulled over his political career.

Although the KUT call was originally used rather experimentally by the University of Texas in the 1920s before the station was moved to Houston to become KTRH, it was also used as the call for what is now KJFK 1490 from 1929 to 1932. Longtime Austinites will remember that station’s incarnation as KNOW from 1932 to 1988.