1210 AM Signal Problem

[davideduardo]

Granted, areas to the west of Philadelphia seem to have poor ground conductivity, but this should not impact WPHT's signal so severely within the metro area. I wonder if they just have a lousy transmitter location for reaching the whole market. That being said, their groundwave signal only seemed impressive when traveling to the south, along the Delmarva peninsula. It does not go all that far in any other direction. When compared with other 50 kw stations around the country, WPHT is definitely an underperformer. And, it has little to do with frequency location.

This is the best post on the thread. I don't have the condutivity figures, but you may have hit an issue... but going back to my DX days from Ohio and Puerto Rico in the 60's and 70's, 1210 never had an impressive signal.

 

[8638]

all I know is that 1210 drifts on my radio. And that's disturbing enough. Besides, they just don't build rado's like they used to. Ya'na mean?

Sometimes recapping a tuner with drifting problems helps to stabilize it. Change the electrolytic caps out on it; those things have fairly short lives.

Friend of mine did that to a high-end tuner that had gotten all drifty (to the point where it would sometimes go up or down a station or two). Changing the electroytics brought the unit back to spec.

Good point, Stephanie! Dried out electrolytic caps can definitely cause this problem. But I doubt it'd help Sam. This station has some sort of technical problem. I won't be as self immersed as David Eduardo and say I do or do not know the reason why. I'm guessing the IBOC thing might not be working properly. It does degrade the analog signal on any station I've heard using it.

As for WPHT, I'm under 50 miles from its TX, sitting 3/4 of a mile from a salt water bay, on ground with good conductivity. The daytime signal is never solid, and the nighttime signal sounds entirely like skywave. Not amusing to listen to. Its sister in NYC, WCBS 880, from a less than optimal location, puts out a much better signal.

 

[cyberdad]

In my northern Illinois location (near Chicago), KYW 1060 has a very good skywave signal....much better than 1210. The DA certainly doesn't hurt 1060 here, but we're not exactly in a direct line with where all the RF is beaming, so there really shouldn't be much of a difference.

 

[DG02816]

And you'd think with a tower slightly over a half wavelength high at 1210 that the station would have a massive signal. I take as a reference on this CHWO Toronto, which WVCH has to protect. They run 50 kW into a 183 degree high tower at 740 and have a monster signal. I do remember years ago in Rhode Island, hearing the then WCAU pound the daylights out of the former WRIB 1220 at sunset.

 

[davideduardo]

And you'd think with a tower slightly over a half wavelength high at 1210 that the station would have a massive signal. I take as a reference on this CHWO Toronto, which WVCH has to protect. They run 50 kW into a 183 degree high tower at 740 and have a monster signal. I do remember years ago in Rhode Island, hearing the then WCAU pound the daylights out of the former WRIB 1220 at sunset.

Actually, a half wave tower has one problem, which is the skywave cancellation of the groundwave signal: a 5/8 wave tower tends to move the cancellation zone out a bit. A higher band (1210 is the highest frequency of the old 1A clear channels) frequency will have the skywave land, at night, closer to the transmitter than a 5/8.

That does not answer the day coverage issue. 1210 is fairly high band where coverage falls of dreadfully.... the coverage areas of both WFIL and KYW are much larger than that of 1210... the only place 1210 is a bit better is towards Trenton (where it is the only one of the 3 to 5 mv/m Trenton). To the south and SW, the three are nearly identical, while to the North and NW, 560 and 1060 put a 5 mv/m to Quakertown and Reading, while 1210 falls short of West Chester and barely makes it to Doylestown. 1210 is definitely much inferior to KYW and WFIL

 

[davideduardo]

As for WPHT, I'm under 50 miles from its TX, sitting 3/4 of a mile from a salt water bay, on ground with good conductivity. The daytime signal is never solid, and the nighttime signal sounds entirely like skywave. Not amusing to listen to. Its sister in NYC, WCBS 880, from a less than optimal location, puts out a much better signal.

Sounds like you are getting skywave cancellation at night, while you are beyond the primary groundwave area for WCBS and are getting pure skywave, with no cancellation. The 5 mv/m of WPHT only goes about 25 to 26 or so miles, so you are way out of the primary signal area for the station.

The WCBS transmitter is ideal, as it is footwet in salt water. The WPHT transmitter is on realtively low conductivity soil a few miles into Jersey. For groundwave, WCBS has the advantage of being over 300 kHz lower, and being in the perfect ground. WPHT is on relatively bad soil and on a high frequency.

 

[davideduardo]

Well, something is up with WPHT's signal because it is not very effective for a 50 kw transmitter. From where live in Chester County (roughly 25 miles west of Philadelphia), WPHT's signal registers a 4 out of 10. This is similar to the signal strength of stations like WNTP, WIP and WPEN. Of those, WNTP is 50 kw during the daytime, but directional away from my location (we're in the null). All three have signal strength of 4/10 - like WPHT. The other big 50 kw signal in the area, KYW, blasts a daytime 10/10 signal and a nighttime 8-9/10. At night, WPHT's signal can be as tough to listen to as a skywave signal - at times being highly compromised by RF interference around the house. I have an easier time listening to WBZ at times.

At Chester, both WFIL and KYW have just about double the field strength of WPHT. So, your relative strength readings of WPHT vs. KYW are just as they should be.

 

[BRNout]

Well, something is up with WPHT's signal because it is not very effective for a 50 kw transmitter. From where live in Chester County (roughly 25 miles west of Philadelphia), WPHT's signal registers a 4 out of 10. This is similar to the signal strength of stations like WNTP, WIP and WPEN. Of those, WNTP is 50 kw during the daytime, but directional away from my location (we're in the null). All three have signal strength of 4/10 - like WPHT. The other big 50 kw signal in the area, KYW, blasts a daytime 10/10 signal and a nighttime 8-9/10. At night, WPHT's signal can be as tough to listen to as a skywave signal - at times being highly compromised by RF interference around the house. I have an easier time listening to WBZ at times.

At Chester, both WFIL and KYW have just about double the field strength of WPHT. So, your relative strength readings of WPHT vs. KYW are just as they should be.

David, I appreciate your technical explanation and insight on this issue. In my case, I am used to checking out 50 kw former clears in other markets, so WPHT's performance has been surprisingly poor. For example, I lived for many years in Utah and KSL always had an incredibly strong signal that carried for hundreds of miles. Granted, the soil conditions are fairly ideal there - but what a whopper of a signal they have....day and night!

And, for many years in NH, I became accustomed to WBZ booming in from 50+ miles away with a signal that is stronger than local stations have. You can hear them in the daytime well into SW Connecticut (at least 150 miles from the tx site), another area with relatively poor ground conductivity.

So, WPHT is pretty pale in comparison. At least now I think we are a lot closer to getting this issue sorted out.

 

[Jul]

Posters, if you contact WPHT-AM about the signal issues, You can contact 1210 AM via this link: http://thebigtalker1210.com/pages/17126.php

 

[Kyle D]

So, WPHT is pretty pale in comparison. At least now I think we are a lot closer to getting this issue sorted out.

You didn't listen to Mr. Eduardo, did you BRNout?

There can't possibly be anything wrong with 1210's signal. You should check your radio and probably buy a better one.

 

[qtpieislit]

So, WPHT is pretty pale in comparison. At least now I think we are a lot closer to getting this issue sorted out.

You didn't listen to Mr. Eduardo, did you BRNout?

There can't possibly be anything wrong with 1210's signal. You should check your radio and probably buy a better one.

With a better flashlight battery.

 

[BRNout]

Poor ground conductivity, a lousy tx location, location on the band. In other words, a mix of natural and man-made reasons. I did listen because those things do make sense. They certainly would explain why its such a crummy 50,000 watter.

Now, I haven't been here for a long time so if you're telling me that WPHT used to be a blowtorch and is now feeble, that would pose an interesting question for David.

 

[oaktree]

A priceless thread.

"...a better flashlight battery." Perfect.

AM radio is dead. In the water or not.

Ask Dave Eduardo. He'll tell you.

I'd write more, but I'm with Sam. There's a sale on capacitors at Radio Shack and I think I'll grab a handful of those striped resistor thingys, too, as well as a couple of tubes for this old Sears Silvertone. Just for giggles.

Mr. Crosley sure wouldn't have done it this way. He used 500,000 watts, back in the day, by golly! No one dared steal his copper, lest they become a bronze statue at the end of a radial. Yep ... those were the days.

And I'll pick up a couple of those batteries for ya, Sam. I'm a member of their battery club.

 

[mimo]

It lo0ks like David hit it right on the head. Now the question ¿what (if anything) should be done about it? should be asked

 

[davideduardo]

Poor ground conductivity, a lousy tx location, location on the band. In other words, a mix of natural and man-made reasons. I did listen because those things do make sense. They certainly would explain why its such a crummy 50,000 watter.

Now, I haven't been here for a long time so if you're telling me that WPHT used to be a blowtorch and is now feeble, that would pose an interesting question for David.

The questions to be asked if there are other factors would be things like how much construction has there been in the area of the transmitter, whether the water table is lower or the land much more dry below the surface, All could attenuate the signal to some extent. Probably the main issue is that decades ago there were no dimmers, computers, few noisy power lines and generally lower man maid noise on AM. It takes a bigger signal today to provide listenable radio reception.

 

[PhilGalasso]

Granted I don't know where 1210's stick is, when I was on vacation in King of Prussia, which is about a 20 mile or so drive down The Schuykill Expressway from Philly I was surprised at how very staticy WPHT was. (surprising for a 50KWer). Meanwhile 1540 the all ethnic station was crystal clear. I guess I'm spoiled coming from Hartford, CT where the 50KW WTIC can be heard crystal clear for miles and miles and miles.

The WPHT stick is in Moorestown, NJ, about a mile from Route 73 near Pennsauken. They may be having ground system problems. South Jersey has been hit by a rash of copper thefts recently and someone may have stolen the radials. (My place got hit a few weeks ago!)

 

[PhilGalasso]

Poor ground conductivity, a lousy tx location, location on the band. In other words, a mix of natural and man-made reasons. I did listen because those things do make sense. They certainly would explain why its such a crummy 50,000 watter.

Now, I haven't been here for a long time so if you're telling me that WPHT used to be a blowtorch and is now feeble, that would pose an interesting question for David.

WPHT used to be a blowtorch. In that station's earlier incarnation as WCAU, I used to hear it clearly in North Jersey. They need to get an engineer on site to check the base impedance and ground system. South Jersey, where the transmitter is located, has been plagued by copper thefts. Someone may have made off with the ground radials, leaving that 50,000 watt signal to warm up fishing worms.

 

[PhilGalasso]

Actually, a half wave tower has one problem, which is the skywave cancellation of the groundwave signal: a 5/8 wave tower tends to move the cancellation zone out a bit. A higher band (1210 is the highest frequency of the old 1A clear channels) frequency will have the skywave land, at night, closer to the transmitter than a 5/8.

Actually, 1580 was the highest frequency of the Class I clear channels. It is a Canadian clear channel. The highest U.S. clear channel was 1560, occupied by WQXR (now WQEW) in New York City, a Class I-B station. The former WCKY in Cincinnati (now WSAI) was a Class I-A on 1530.

 

[PhilGalasso]

A proof of performance is not the issue; when required, most were done on a desktop. In any case, there is no cost in doing one... just part of the engineer's duties. Today's equipment is so stable that much of the need for a proof is gone anyway.

AM stations are still required to measure their occupied bandwidth and harmonic emissions once a year. That rule never went away with deregulation. If an AM station makes any changes in its antenna system, it must do an antenna proof of performance by sending people with field strength meters out along radials drawn on a map from the transmitter site. If the station is directional, the engineers must make these measurements for each pattern, plus a nondirectional pattern. That certainly cannot be done on a desktop.

Even FM stations are required to check their bandwidth on a spectrum analyzer if they replace a transmitter or exciter or if a subcarrier has been added.

See Part 73 of the FCC Rules, particularly 73.151, 73.153, and 73.1590.

 

[davideduardo]

WPHT used to be a blowtorch. In that station's earlier incarnation as WCAU, I used to hear it clearly in North Jersey. They need to get an engineer on site to check the base impedance and ground system. South Jersey, where the transmitter is located, has been plagued by copper thefts. Someone may have made off with the ground radials, leaving that 50,000 watt signal to warm up fishing worms.

Was the signal itself stronger, or was the manmade noise lower? In many markets, the usable AM signal, as determined from at-home and at-work ZIP code analysis, has been geographically reduced significantly just in the last 10 years as storinger and stronger signals are required to make a station listenable.

Most AM transmitters, particularly newer solid state ones, have a limited tolerance for antenna mis-matching, and there is required base current metering as well, even if a station uses indirect power measurement. Any detuning of the tower, either due to things like resistence build up between sections or to a defective or missing ground system will be noticed in the readings. Many transmitters would not even go on if much of the ground went MIA.

If the station has a conforming installation, there would be 120 half wave radials (on a square lot they would be longer to the corners in some cases) and getting them out of even naturally compacted earth is tedious and would be noticed immediately. Many stations have replaced radials with Copperweld, which has the salvage value of steel (very low and not profitable in small lots) and have even posted this on the sites... crooks do not steel things they can not sell.

Yeah, the tower could require repair. And the ground could be missing, but either of these things would be immediately noted via metering or eyeballing the property.

The fact is that 1060 and 560 have always had better signals, particularly to the NW. What is the comparison to these signals today?