mimo said:
Supposedly on 106.3 as of years ago.
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1210 AM Signal Problem
- Thread starter Reggiefan1945
- Start date
Supposedly on 106.3 as of years ago.
DavidEduardo said:
I also recall 834 in Belize. (in listings - never heard it)
The RADEXs on your website even list a few split channels in Canada & Newfoundland - as recently as 1940 a VOAC on 1065 in St. John's, and a VAS on 685 in Nova Scotia. (though I'm not convinced the latter was a broadcast station) You don't have to go much further back to find additional 5KHz splits in Newfoundland, long after all U.S. stations had normalized to 10KHz channels.
To answer amfm sw's contention of 1210 reception in Bermuda, groundwave over a salt water path is the best situation you can have for AM reception.I used to hear Radio Vision Cristiana in Rhode Island with a local like signal at night. It's even louder here in PA. 50 kW non-D over salt water gets out. The 530 kHz frequency doesn't hurt either. The groundwaveover sat watyer was how 1210 was being heard in Bermuda.
DG02816 said:
If you can only get a station at night, you are not getting groundwave at all. For example, if you got 530 only at night, then that was skywave, which only exists under night or night-like conditions. Groundwave is the same day or night.
DavidEduardo said:
That's almost like Singapore. One of those countries that turned off their AM stations because of interference from surrounding countries (that I guess have more powerful transmitters).
FM is enough to cover a place like Singapore. You can get AM at night from Malaysia and other nearby places.
StephanieNYC said:
It's a trend, in fact. Austria has eliminated all but a couple of AMs, as has South Africa (I believe 4 are left) and Canada is on its way... if the current dozen applications are granted, only Montreal will have any AMs left and the total AM count is under half of what there were 15 years ago.
Chile is slowly reducing the AM count, with a few turning in licences each year, including Radio Mineria, a 100 kw AM in Santiago that was about 70 years old when they said, "AM is not useful or profitable any more" and shut down. The bigger cities in Ecuador and all Central America have a third to a half less stations than 20 years ago, too.
DavidEduardo said:
I think the figure in Canada is closer to 2/3, but that's still pretty dramatic. There are no full-power AM stations left on Prince Edward Island, just two 20-watt travelers-information stations. I suppose Nova Scotia will be next, with only ten active AM licences, six of which have been approved to move to FM. New Brunswick has only 12 AMs but only two have FM permits (so far).
(I find 199 deleted AMs vs. 405 current ones in the database. That's a bit off - a quick scan finds four listed as active that I know have moved to FM, plus a bunch that have been approved to move but haven't moved yet, but in any case it's pretty close to 1/3 deleted since around the time of CKO, in the mid-1980s. Not all of the deleted AMs moved to FM, some simply went dark. )
At the same time, Montreal and Toronto have seen *new* AM stations built recently. Three each, all expanded-band except 1450 in Montreal.
DavidEduardo said:
Pictures, Eduardo, pictures, pictures, pictures. Don’t just give us vague verbal descriptions, let see those transmitter pictorials, yo.
Sam Lit said:
Buy a WRTVH and look at it yourself. Buy a 20 year old one on eBay and compare, country to country.
Since your comment on the KTNQ signal, you have about zero cred with me, anyhow.
w9wi said:
Could be only a third; I got the impression that, excluding LPRTs (the 50 watters at the CN train depots) and such, that more than half had migrated or held permits to build an FM, simulcast and close the AM... ones like CBA, the 50 kw in Sackville which is still running post-drop dea date due to delays in building the FM site.
The new ones are mostly things like the X Band facilities or replacements for deleted AMs... I think 1580, previously in Chiqoutimi, moved to Oshawa or someplace near Toronto... as the regulators have said that only the big diverse metros need AM to supplement FM offerings.
DavidEduardo said:
Don’t take it so personal. What’s a frequency or two between distant radio geekeys anyway.
[url]http://www.radio-info.com/smf/index.php/topic,82050.30.html [/url]
I believe South Africa is now completely dark on AM, with 702 just surrendering the AM License last month. David, you are right about Oshawa's location, it is an hour east of Toronto, the previous frequency of 1350 reached into the city quite well but was inaudible at night, now at 1580, Torontonians have 3 AM signals playing oldies with very clear signals (1050 and 1150 being the other 2) Canada's new AM's (excluding 1450) are all xbanders. There are a few that were regular banders that were applied for in Montreal but were denied for technical reasons but the do0r isn't closed to them reapplying. Before 1450 I think the last new station on AM that came to air under the "old" band was CJRJ 1200 Vancouver, with 1200 previously belonging to CKDA in Victoria. Since we're now under the topic of international radio ¿What's going on with the Mexican AM dial? I haven't heard of any stations going dark there. Some of them still appear to be playing new music and being successful, although I assume they are smaller towns (San Miguel De Allende Gto, for one). I read somewhere that XEROK is/was temporarily dark. Sad, but they had terrible ratings in El Paso, and in the 90's they played with the format for a bit becoming "la ley" for a bit and playing pop music before going back to radio cañon. Both formats were very enjoyable. It was nice to be able to hear Maná and other great spanish rock bands while driving throughout the midwest at night. AM will be around in Canada for the forseeable future, but pretty much only the big cities. Our FM dials are full. It may be possible (wishful thinking?) that it may return to the atlantic region when the FM dial gets to0 full. Newfoundland seems to be bucking the trend. St. John's still has an AM band that's fuller than some of it's bigger city counterparts.
mimo said:
Isn't there still one at Durban around 1250? Or did it go to M, too? Interestingly, 702 which was licensed to oone of the "Homelands" over a mountain from J-burg, had an LA engineer in charge in the late 80's... James Blakely, who was my CE at KHJ in '92 to '94. He had some very interesting photos of the directional array that made the signal at least listenable in the city.
AMs still make money in Mexico for two reasons. First, nearly all are part of groups that also own FMs, and the AMs are sold in a package even if they don't get great rates. AMs in Mexico have even lower ratings as a group than in the US, and radio usage is lower in general due to high commercial loads (20% of people do not listen even once a week... in the US is is 4%). Second, AMs are as cheap to run technically as FMs since so few are directional. So marginal niche formats are put on AM, and even if they only get small shares, when combined with big FMs, they are package deals....
And radio is part of more ad budgets in Mexico than in the US.
XEROK was on last I was in El Paso, a month or so ago. It is running 50 kw, though. The power grid and costs required it cut back power.
I think the government policy is that the necessary formats for large diverse cities like Vancouver or Toronto require maintaining AM stations, but most cities, from Winipeg to Halifax, do not need AMs any more.
DavidEduardo said:
Good point - if you ignore stations of less than 250 watts (LPRTs) then it's about 46% that have moved in the last 25 years or so. (probably pretty close to 50% - even possibly >50% - when you count those that have been approved to move but haven't completed the FM facility yet)
Surprised CBA is delayed, as there are existing high-powered CBC FMs at the same site - it should only be necessary to add another transmitter to the combiner - one would *think* they'd have planned for the possibility of having all four CBC networks on FM but maybe not.
Private stations have had problems in some cases where they've completed the FM but the coverage isn't what was expected & they have to ask for a FM power increase or some translators to replicate the daytime AM coverage.
From a technical standpoint, Chicoutimi moved to FM. (93.7, I think) CKDO-1580 Oshawa moved from 1350kHz. But that's a semantic difference - that facility wouldn't have been possible at Oshawa if Chicoutimi was still on the air.
I might suggest in many cases new stations or frequency changes in large cities on AM are happening because no FM frequency is available that could provide adequate coverage/replicate the AM daytime contours. The Oshawa station actually did get a FM relay about the same time as the 1580 frequency change, but they only got 250 watts on FM. In Chicoutimi there was a frequency available for 50kw on FM.
Conversely, on the Prairies the number of FM transmitters - even of 100kw - that would be necessary to replicate the coverage of a low-on-the-dial 50kw AM on that ultra-high-conductivity soil would be prohibitive - so when they go to FM in Regina, they leave the AM transmitter on the air...
1210 DOES have an awful signal!
1210 does have an awful signal, and it has very little to do with their dial position! It's THEM! If you need proof of this, look at 1180 with their mighty kilowatt into a 92 foot fiberglas pole. They have a superior signal to the 50 kW 1210 in many areas! They have regular listeners in Reading. Why? Simple. They have optimized EVERY aspect of their limited signal. 1210 is one of those signals that has gone down gradually over time until one day someone said: "We have a worse signal then a 5 kW station!". I'd guess that their problem is several fold-a combination of a poor ground system (and despite what's been said here they can get worse gradually without being noticed by their engineers-especially if the engineers there don't know where to look!) combined with perhaps poorly bonded tower sections, a poorly set up ATU, crap processing and low modulation-all of which 1210 has!
But wait...IBOC will fix all this for them! RIGHT????
I did the field measurements on the 1180 power increase from 430 watts to 1 kW (after we signed 1180 on), and was AMAZED at how poor 1210's signal is-everywhere. Processing wise they sound like a station from the 1950's using an old Westinghouse plate modulated transmitter. I understand they have a DX-50 there-is it even on the air?
Maybe you can call it sour grapes, but I applied for the 1210 Chief Engineer opening there earlier this year-and they wouldn't even give me the courtesy of a return phone call! I guess that's what 30 years of major market engineering experience buys you these days....SO, I guess they deserve to lie in the bed they made for themselves, eh?
1210 does have an awful signal, and it has very little to do with their dial position! It's THEM! If you need proof of this, look at 1180 with their mighty kilowatt into a 92 foot fiberglas pole. They have a superior signal to the 50 kW 1210 in many areas! They have regular listeners in Reading. Why? Simple. They have optimized EVERY aspect of their limited signal. 1210 is one of those signals that has gone down gradually over time until one day someone said: "We have a worse signal then a 5 kW station!". I'd guess that their problem is several fold-a combination of a poor ground system (and despite what's been said here they can get worse gradually without being noticed by their engineers-especially if the engineers there don't know where to look!) combined with perhaps poorly bonded tower sections, a poorly set up ATU, crap processing and low modulation-all of which 1210 has!
But wait...IBOC will fix all this for them! RIGHT????
I did the field measurements on the 1180 power increase from 430 watts to 1 kW (after we signed 1180 on), and was AMAZED at how poor 1210's signal is-everywhere. Processing wise they sound like a station from the 1950's using an old Westinghouse plate modulated transmitter. I understand they have a DX-50 there-is it even on the air?
Maybe you can call it sour grapes, but I applied for the 1210 Chief Engineer opening there earlier this year-and they wouldn't even give me the courtesy of a return phone call! I guess that's what 30 years of major market engineering experience buys you these days....SO, I guess they deserve to lie in the bed they made for themselves, eh?
Sounds like sour grapes.
Personally, I heard your station. While it is admirable you made it fit, It's a pip squeak in comparison.
Really? How many regular listeners? Did you take a poll? Your claim is stretching it a bit much.
on 1180, I heard a distorted program on food allergies. Seems more like a radio station run to be a glorified science experiement. You're stretching it with your "Mighty kilowatt" description. WPHT, KYW, and WIP all sound on par in virtually all areas, even in the narrow analog IBOC mode.
And of course, at night....it's "Lights out".
Good luck with your science experiement.
Personally, I heard your station. While it is admirable you made it fit, It's a pip squeak in comparison.
Really? How many regular listeners? Did you take a poll? Your claim is stretching it a bit much.
on 1180, I heard a distorted program on food allergies. Seems more like a radio station run to be a glorified science experiement. You're stretching it with your "Mighty kilowatt" description. WPHT, KYW, and WIP all sound on par in virtually all areas, even in the narrow analog IBOC mode.
I happen to like the HD. Like all new technologies, it needs to be nurtured. Obviously, the industry is trying to make AM better.. There will always be detractors, but these "Detractors" won't put their money where their mouths are. Everyone is a freakin Einstein.
Even still,The coverage is as expected for a 1kw, as I heard it in lower merion. With frequent cancellation , particularly around power lines. It isn't so superior really. It's performing as a local 1kw should. And that's fine.
And of course, at night....it's "Lights out".
Good luck with your science experiement.
Petri dish broadcasting. Now that’s what’s up.
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