15~Ten's Power Grab

[DrAkbar]

Why wouldn't all news work?

Uh, oh...here we go again on a topic that's been beaten up more than our '76 Gremlin! Long story short, it just won't work in Phoenix and is only being done in markets where there've been all news stations for decades. If you wanna try it, buy 15~Eighty and ask the current resident of 1600 Pennsylvania Av for some taxpayer money.

And now back to the topic at hand: 15~Ten's Power Grab.


KFuNN with 100 watts that sound like 22,000!

 

[KeithE4]

Why wouldn't all news work?

One would need a full-market, preferably 50,000 watt, signal at the low end of the AM dial. There are only two of those here: KFYI and KTAR, and neither is changing formats. Neither are they 50,000 watts.

The only all-news station AFAIK at the top end was WTOP 1500 in Washington DC, owned by TMISU. It's now on FM and for good reason. Despite being 50 kW, AM 1500 (whatever it's called now) doesn't cover the entire DC metro - too directional and at the wrong end of the dial. 50 kW on 1500 is worse than 5 kW on 550.

Various stations tried it years ago: KPHX in the early '70s. KTAR in the mid '70s, KRUX in the late '70s, and KNNS in the early '90s. All failed.

Of course, there's always an FM station, which both SeeBS and TMISU have plenty of. Neither has tried. Again, for good reason. Phoenix isn't big enough, educated enough, or affluent enough (outside of Snobsdale & PV) to support it even if a decent signal were available.

 

[landtuna]

Phoenix isn't big enough, educated enough, or affluent enough (outside of Snobsdale & PV) to support it even if a decent signal were available.

HUH? "Educated" or "affluent" enough to listen to news? Any sources to support that?

What is probably more important than either education or affluence is (a) language (more specifically, the number of Spanish speaking people who prefer their first language), (b) the median age of radio listeners in the Valley (it is a young crowd which doesn't listen to a lot of radio and then not to news when they do).

Comparing the Valley (or most other large cities) to WashDC for news broadcasting is apples and oranges.

 

[piggy]

Phoenix isn't big enough, educated enough, or affluent enough (outside of Snobsdale & PV) to support it even if a decent signal were available.

HUH? "Educated" or "affluent" enough to listen to news? Any sources to support that?

What is probably more important than either education or affluence is (a) language (more specifically, the number of Spanish speaking people who prefer their first language), (b) the median age of radio listeners in the Valley (it is a young crowd which doesn't listen to a lot of radio and then not to news when they do).

Comparing the Valley (or most other large cities) to WashDC for news broadcasting is apples and oranges.

More importantly, there isn't enough revenue available in the market to support a really expensive format like all-news done right. There is enough revenue to do a half-a$$ed job of it (carry CNN headline news with Metro updates) but people won't listen to that because it sucks (which in turn doesn't make any money). So, radio will do what it can afford to do, which is to turn on the automation and turn out the lights, because the billing isn't there to support paying salaries of multiple reporters, anchors, writers, and editors around the clock.

 

[radioman148]

Why wouldn't all news work?

Uh, oh...here we go again on a topic that's been beaten up more than our '76 Gremlin! Long story short, it just won't work in Phoenix and is only being done in markets where there've been all news stations for decades. If you wanna try it, buy 15~Eighty and ask the current resident of 1600 Pennsylvania Av for some taxpayer money.

And now back to the topic at hand: 15~Ten's Power Grab.


KFuNN with 100 watts that sound like 22,000!

OK, I'll take your word for it.

 

[TheRadioVortex]

Phoenix isn't big enough, educated enough, or affluent enough (outside of Snobsdale & PV) to support it even if a decent signal were available.

HUH? "Educated" or "affluent" enough to listen to news? Any sources to support that?

What is probably more important than either education or affluence is (a) language (more specifically, the number of Spanish speaking people who prefer their first language), (b) the median age of radio listeners in the Valley (it is a young crowd which doesn't listen to a lot of radio and then not to news when they do).

Comparing the Valley (or most other large cities) to WashDC for news broadcasting is apples and oranges.

Agree with all of your points, landtuna.

What is KeithE4's basis for stating the valley isn't educated or affluent enough for all news radio w/ traffic every 10 (9) minutes?

Does this mean that FOX, CNN, and other TV Cable News outlets in Arizona are getting low ratings because Phoenix isn't educated enough?

Sounds like an Elitist on a Graduate School entrance committee. Reminds me of a liberal host on Air America who once told me, "Oh, well, our audience tends to me more educated and upscale."

Well, if a particular format or host is too elitist, they better figure out why so they can capture a wider audience.

 

[TheRadioVortex]

Why wouldn't all news work?

One would need a full-market, preferably 50,000 watt, signal at the low end of the AM dial. There are only two of those here: KFYI and KTAR, and neither is changing formats. Neither are they 50,000 watts.

The only all-news station AFAIK at the top end was WTOP 1500 in Washington DC, owned by TMISU. It's now on FM and for good reason. Despite being 50 kW, AM 1500 (whatever it's called now) doesn't cover the entire DC metro - too directional and at the wrong end of the dial. 50 kW on 1500 is worse than 5 kW on 550.

Various stations tried it years ago: KPHX in the early '70s. KTAR in the mid '70s, KRUX in the late '70s, and KNNS in the early '90s. All failed.

Of course, there's always an FM station, which both SeeBS and TMISU have plenty of. Neither has tried. Again, for good reason. Phoenix isn't big enough, educated enough, or affluent enough (outside of Snobsdale & PV) to support it even if a decent signal were available.

N/T can do just fine above 1000kHz. A 50kW station w/ reasonable ground conductivity can work. There are dozens of 50kW examples: 1070 L.A.; 1090 Seattle; 1090 Baltimore; 1160 Salt Lake City; 1520 Oklahoma City; 1510 KGA spokane (formerly); 1510 All Sports Boston; 1110 St. Louis, etc.

1580 KMIK Phoenix has 6 towers for nightime operations, leaving some nulls. But during the day, they use one tower and cover the entire area. However, the station is going to waste with Radio Disney. I don't know what will happen with the Radio Disney properties. Maybe Jerry Del Collianno will write about this. With brokered issues-oriented some talk shows middays and overnights, they could do all news during key AM, midday and evening dayparts and make a profit.

Perhaps Dr. Mike could buy 10am-NOON; Charles Goyette could buy 1-3; Jeff Farias could buy 8p-11pm; and the Midnight Truckers Radio Network 11pm-4am.

 

[radioman148]

I would think that with enough of an older population in the Phoenix market that N/T could work.
Am I wrong?

 

[KeithE4]

N/T can do just fine above 1000kHz. A 50kW station w/ reasonable ground conductivity can work. There are dozens of 50kW examples: 1070 L.A.; 1090 Seattle; 1090 Baltimore; 1160 Salt Lake City; 1520 Oklahoma City; 1510 KGA spokane (formerly); 1510 All Sports Boston; 1110 St. Louis, etc.

Sure it can. 50 kW stations exist from 640 to 1220 kHz and from 1500 to 1580 (with a few stragglers like KPXQ and WXYT in between). The ones above 1500 cover about as much ground as a 2.5 kW station at the low end. Ground wave propagation doesn't work as well at the high end of the dial, and sky wave (which is better at the high end) doesn't count for much.

Trouble is, Phoenix doesn't have one of those big low-end stations, and the two full-market 5 kW stations it does have aren't changing what works for them (conservative talk & sports). The only other ones that are close, signal-wise, are XTRA, KKNT, KDUS, and KFNX. All have limited signals at night.

1580 KMIK Phoenix has 6 towers for nightime operations, leaving some nulls. But during the day, they use one tower and cover the entire area. However, the station is going to waste with Radio Disney. I don't know what will happen with the Radio Disney properties. Maybe Jerry Del Collianno will write about this. With brokered issues-oriented some talk shows middays and overnights, they could do all news during key AM, midday and evening dayparts and make a profit.

Unless you've heard something that I haven't, Disney is not selling its O&O stations (which are either Radio Disney or ESPN) AFAIK. They're used to market those brands, and don't necessarily make money - in fact, IIRC, Radio Disney has never made money on its own but the ESPN stations do.

Perhaps Dr. Mike could buy 10am-NOON; Charles Goyette could buy 1-3; Jeff Farias could buy 8p-11pm; and the Midnight Truckers Radio Network 11pm-4am.

Again, probably not on 1580 unless Disney is in fact selling. Where else would such programming go? KMVP? I'd be surprised if TMISU would sell time to them - but money does talk. KFNX? Maybe during the day between Colon Blow informercials if there's room. No signal at night outside of the far-north side of the city.

 

[KeithE4]

Agree with all of your points, landtuna.

What is KeithE4's basis for stating the valley isn't educated or affluent enough for all news radio w/ traffic every 10 (9) minutes?

According to CensusScope.org, the Phoenix metro is 118th out of 318 metro areas in the country for folks over the age of 25 with college or professional degrees. As a comparison, San Francisco is 4th, Washington DC is 9th, Boston is 33rd, Chicago is 65th, New York is 78th, and LA is 129th.

BTW, the news stations in LA (KFWB & KNX) are rather low-rated (about 2.5 each). The other cities' stations do rather well - either leading their markets' 12+ ratings or are at least in the Top 5.

Does this mean that FOX, CNN, and other TV Cable News outlets in Arizona are getting low ratings because Phoenix isn't educated enough?

Apples & oranges. We're talking local radio, not national cable TV. FNC & CNN do well for cable channels. But from what I've read in the past (which you are apparently disputing), better-educated people listen to all-news radio more than those with less education.

Sounds like an Elitist on a Graduate School entrance committee. Reminds me of a liberal host on Air America who once told me, "Oh, well, our audience tends to me more educated and upscale."

I have an Associates Degree in Electronics Engineering Technology from Mesa Community College. I'm about as far from "elitist" as one can be. Neither am I a flaming liberal. In fact, I'm a independent moderate who uses talk radio - both liberal and conservative - for comedy relief. It's not worth much else. I certainly don't base my vote on what Rush Limbaugh or Bill Press say, but I do (or "did" in the case of Press) listen to both of them.

But that liberal host you mention is probably right, although he could have said it better. And some educated conservatives also listen to Rush & Hannity. But I'm willing to bet that most educated folks of all political stripes tend to read news magazines (both the dead-tree and online versions) more than listen to talk radio.

Well, if a particular format or host is too elitist, they better figure out why so they can capture a wider audience.

Maybe that host doesn't want or need to. But we're not talking about talk radio. We're talking about the possibility of an all-news station in Phoenix. I personally would listen (I don't fit that highly-educated demo, but I do come from a city - Chicago - with an all-news station and listened quite a bit when I lived there), but I just don't think it would work here, for the reasons I stated above. We may have to agree to disagree, but until you or someone else proves otherwise, I stand by what I said.

But even if the education level was as high as Boston or SF, there is no signal available or a company willing to try it. CBS and TMISU are the companies that do all-news. If it could work here, one of them would have tried it already.

 

[KeithE4]

N/T can do just fine above 1000kHz. A 50kW station w/ reasonable ground conductivity can work. There are dozens of 50kW examples: 1070 L.A.; 1090 Seattle; 1090 Baltimore; 1160 Salt Lake City; 1520 Oklahoma City; 1510 KGA spokane (formerly); 1510 All Sports Boston; 1110 St. Louis, etc.

Sure it can. 50 kW stations exist from 640 to 1220 kHz and from 1500 to 1580 (with a few stragglers like KPXQ and WXYT in between). The ones above 1500 cover about as much ground as a 2.5 kW station at the low end. Ground wave propagation doesn't work as well at the high end of the dial, and sky wave (which is better at the high end) doesn't count for much.

To clarify, I meant that N/T can exist above 1000 - to 1220 kHz, but not much higher in big markets. Outside of KOKC 1520 Oklahoma City and KFBK 1530 Sacramento, I can't think of any really successful N/T stations at the high end of the dial. And neither city is a major market.

 

[DrAkbar]

Wassup with the Coyotes on KFuNN Thursday night? Nurse Jeff and I were checkin' to see if they still don't power down at 6:45pm when we heard the Yotes on the Mighty 15~Ten. Guess Gumpdusky got an extra $25 for taking another game on KDUS and giving KFuNN the puck! And we're pleased to report the Mesa Power Grabbers still aren't going to nighttime pow-pow-power at the correct time. Wonder what time they'll switch patterns next month?

 

[radioman148]

So many stations don't pay attention to the proper time they are suppose to power down. Many claim it's because of computer error, but that's becoming harder & harder to believe.

 

[catfish]

So a major market cluster asks for a DOE (director of engineering)and only 3 people apply, two are really good, ... lays off in one market and the 2 left work 14 hour days and complain .. work and the DOE is told "so do you like your job, we will find someone to take your place" 50kw AM talker with 3 FM's.. Chiefs taking care of 5, 6 , 7 stations with almost no staff.. times are different and yes the pattern change should be with in 5 minutes plus or minus.. hey if it's really off like 20 minutes, call the station but only leave a message for the engineer. There are still some awesome broadcasters out there in Phoenix.. like every business now things are tough, support the advertisers that actually can go on the air..

 

[oldiesfan6479]

Wassup with the Coyotes on KFuNN Thursday night?...(snip)...Wonder what time they'll switch patterns next month?

Hockey--is that what I was hearing? Well, they managed to do the power drop
earlier than their "usual" 6:59:50...tonight it was at 6:59:45. :

April daytime for the Kay-Funnsters (and most other metro AMs--see Lauren's
chart on her Lumberyard page: http://www.phoenixairchecks.com/KAZG) will
be 6:00am to 7:00pm, so we'll see.

 

[radioman148]

Wassup with the Coyotes on KFuNN Thursday night?...(snip)...Wonder what time they'll switch patterns next month?

Hockey--is that what I was hearing? Well, they managed to do the power drop
earlier than their "usual" 6:59:50...tonight it was at 6:59:45. :

April daytime for the Kay-Funnsters (and most other metro AMs--see Lauren's
chart on her Lumberyard page: http://www.phoenixairchecks.com/KAZG) will
be 6:00am to 7:00pm, so we'll see.

Doesn't mean they'll pay attention to it.

 

[oldiesfan6479]

Friday--6:59:44 pm.

 

[oldiesfan6479]

Monday and Tuesday evenings, Kay-Funn dropped from something
to 100 watts at 6:59:43 (re 6:30pm power down).

Tuesday morning at 6:32 they were already on something more
than 100 watts (re 6:45am power up).

Whether this "something" was 22 kw or a lower power driven by a
PSRA/PSSA, I can't say for sure, however it metered the same as
the daytime signal on the ol' Sangean 909. And if I can't hear the
100 watts in the 'Tuke, how am I going to hear a PSRA/PSSA of
four or six watts?

As always, a representative from KFNN 1510 is encouraged to give
us their side of the power up/down story in this thread.

 

[DrAkbar]

hmmmm....15 minutes early in the morning and 15 late in the evening. Let's see if this pattern repeats itself in April. The Nurse and I think it's a given as the Mesa Power Grabbers seem to make their own rules.

 

[oldiesfan6479]

hmmmm....15 minutes early in the morning and 15 late in the evening.

Actually :30 late in the evening, at least every time I've checked this month.