That facility came up in the Jazz on AM thread. There was talk of a dark 1510 in Sherbrooke, PQ. Does anybody know the history of that facility. I ask because I grew up in northern VT and used to be able to pick up WMEX at night despite 'KB and the then WTOP. I would think that Sherbrooke station would have have mucked up 1510 in Stowe. I don't ever remember it being in the mix, even in the daytime.
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1510 AM Upgrade
- Thread starter Dusty Dale Brooks
- Start date
CJRS was real. It ran 10 kW at night into four in-line towers producing a modified cardioid pattern centered on the northeast (42 degrees true). The theoretical pattern shows essentially no radiation around an arc of at least 180 degrees centered on the southwest (222 degrees true). The day pattern used two towers and was a much-relaxed version of the night pattern. At one point, CJRS held a CP for 50 kW days using a day pattern similar to the 10-kW day pattern I just described. I don't know whether the 50-kW CP was ever built.
The soil conductivity up that way is pretty poor, so I don't know how well CJRS got out--even with 50 kW-D. The skywave got into Boston pretty well at night, though. CJRS really did a number on WMEX down here. I always suspected that, like a great many Canadians, CJRS's patterns were way out of whack and nobody gave a damn. From what I heard, if a US station complained about interference from a co-channel Canadian, Industry Canada (or whomever) simply filed the complaint and never even notified the offending station. Not clear that anything would have been done even if the station had been notified.
There was a station on 1110 in Ontario north of Detroit that was licensed for 10 kW-D/1 kW-N DA-2 using two towers by day and nine towers at night. The night pattern was a teardrop aimed north and protecting WBT. The day pattern was a two-tower cardioid aimed east. The station, CKTY, never used its night pattern or licensed night power for more than 10 years. Destroyed WBT's protected skywave service every night for the whole time until CKTY went dark and moved to FM maybe 10 years ago.
The soil conductivity up that way is pretty poor, so I don't know how well CJRS got out--even with 50 kW-D. The skywave got into Boston pretty well at night, though. CJRS really did a number on WMEX down here. I always suspected that, like a great many Canadians, CJRS's patterns were way out of whack and nobody gave a damn. From what I heard, if a US station complained about interference from a co-channel Canadian, Industry Canada (or whomever) simply filed the complaint and never even notified the offending station. Not clear that anything would have been done even if the station had been notified.
There was a station on 1110 in Ontario north of Detroit that was licensed for 10 kW-D/1 kW-N DA-2 using two towers by day and nine towers at night. The night pattern was a teardrop aimed north and protecting WBT. The day pattern was a two-tower cardioid aimed east. The station, CKTY, never used its night pattern or licensed night power for more than 10 years. Destroyed WBT's protected skywave service every night for the whole time until CKTY went dark and moved to FM maybe 10 years ago.
Confirming the previous comment....I lived on Boston's north shore in the early 70's, and French speaking CJRS definitely jammed the WMEX night time 5000 watt signal considerably. It was easy to null WMEX out completely and only hear CJRS at times instead. It is no wonder that 680-WRKO was able to outlast WMEX. Interestingly though....680-CFTR Toronto...was also audible under WRKO...but nowhere to the level that CJRS jammed WMEX. You had to make an effort to hear CFTR...and most people would never have noticed it....1510-WMEX was also plagued by night time interference from WLAC-Nashville and was squeezed in too during the day by short spaced 1510-WNLC, New London, Ct...
JIBGUY said:
CFDR was actually licensed to Dartmouth, a suburb of Halifax. I assume CFDR's move from 680 to 780 was prompted by the opportunity to get a lower NIF and a more favorable night pattern as well as slightly higher night power (15 kW on 780 vs 10 kW on 680). Looking at the facilities, I have to guess that that the lower NIF and the more favorable night pattern were the biggies. I remember on an auto trip to NS in the late 70s hearing the station announce, at sunset, that it was about to switch to night pattern and that those who could no longer hear the station should tune in again in the morning. The only US station I know of that makes a similar announcement is WJIB.
I recently went out Route 2 a ways, and coming back at night I was surprised that 680 Toronto was completely wiping out WRKO until I was as close as around the Acton/Concord line. I'm used to WRKO being weak out that way at night, but I never heard Toronto over them that strongly. I'm wondering if they didn't change to night pattern up there?
The amazing thing about WMEX was that, in those pre-FM days, they had some of the best ratings in town. Goes to show two things: 1) AM radios were better in those days when it came to eeeking out weaker signals and stations sandwiched between stations and 2) there were really only two stations playing rock music in all of Boston in those baby boom years of 1963-1967, WBZ and WMEX (WCOP was a third, but changed format about '63). Plus, WBZ ran a talk show ("Contact") in the early evening, and WMEX ran Williams-Glick from 10PM, so during those times, there was only ONE station playing rock in all of Boston! And this is during the baby boom era when teenagers were everywhere.
The fascinating thing about WMEX was the talent and station production. Arnie Ginsburg, Larry Lujack, Larry Justice, Jerry Williams, Larry Glick, Charlie Tuna, Dan Donovan (the one that landed in Minneapolis for years under the same name), JJ Jeffery (as Melvin X. Melvin), Ron Robin, I could go on. The production was fast and furious with reverb, chimes, all kinds of stagers and drops. Mac Richmond, the owner, was a lunatic, but he sure knew how to make chicken salad out of chicken sh--.
The fascinating thing about WMEX was the talent and station production. Arnie Ginsburg, Larry Lujack, Larry Justice, Jerry Williams, Larry Glick, Charlie Tuna, Dan Donovan (the one that landed in Minneapolis for years under the same name), JJ Jeffery (as Melvin X. Melvin), Ron Robin, I could go on. The production was fast and furious with reverb, chimes, all kinds of stagers and drops. Mac Richmond, the owner, was a lunatic, but he sure knew how to make chicken salad out of chicken sh--.
Eli Polonsky said:
I heard the same thing not too long ago on route 2 just before midnight. I started getting rko better near Littleton.
I wouldn't be too surprised if you may also find yourself picking up music (a station on 680 out of Binghamton NY) or Hannity's talk (WCBM out of Balt.) instead of Howie, etc. on RKO. That happened
to me on a late fall afternoon in Rutland VT (and Howie's stations in Worc and Burl VT were in and out at best)
to me on a late fall afternoon in Rutland VT (and Howie's stations in Worc and Burl VT were in and out at best)
Eli Polonsky said:
Either the folks at Entercom Boston don't know or don't care or they have learned through experience that complaining would accomplish nothing. It would be interesting to know what WRKO's NIF value is supposed to be. My guess is not much more than 5 mV/m, if that. I think that when the station first went on full-time (it was WLAW back then), the only co-channel stations in North America that were operating full time were KPO (now KNBR) and WPTF. Somewhere along the line, the FCC must have recalculated the NIFs, however. First-adjacents are now contributors, so the (currently dark) 690 in Montreal as well as WSCR would be in the calculation. Dunno about CFTR, though; it may be too new (or the 50-kW version may be too new). WCBM was probably running only 5 kw at night into four towers vs the current 20 kW into six. If CFTR is operating illegally, WRKO would not likely be the only US station affected.
HHH said:
If Mac Richmond were around today.....chances are HE would know what to do with the present-day 1510.
A person could easily lose track with the endless parade of calls and format changes over the years.
680 Toronto has always been a menace to American co-channels. Until about 1979, we had a (at times) top-rated country daytimer in Rochester, WNYR (previously WRNY and WRVM) running 250w NDA with frankly astounding coverage. I could copy WNYR daytimes in my dorm room at Ithaca College, 80 miles distant, with co-channel WINR Binghamton only about 40 miles away (albeit with a deep null daytimes towards Rochester.)
That all changed in the mid 70s when CFTR went 50kw, effectively ending WNYR's commanding coverage. You could hear Toronto clearly under WNYR in downtown Rochester by '76. There was eventually a negotiated peace with CFTR "facilitating" WNYR's move to 990 kHz, a Canadian clear, around 1980. If I'm not mistaken this wouldn't have happened under the strict terms of NARBA since Rochester is within 100 miles of the Canadian border, but CFTR and Industry Canada made it happen anyway. The descendant of WNYR 680 now operates DA-2 on 990...at least they got unlimited hours over the controversy.
I recall visiting WNLC's manned AM site in the late 60s on a New England trip - IIRC, it was an impressive array - Dan, wasn't it 8 or 9 towers? They were running a Gates BC-10P2, I think.
That all changed in the mid 70s when CFTR went 50kw, effectively ending WNYR's commanding coverage. You could hear Toronto clearly under WNYR in downtown Rochester by '76. There was eventually a negotiated peace with CFTR "facilitating" WNYR's move to 990 kHz, a Canadian clear, around 1980. If I'm not mistaken this wouldn't have happened under the strict terms of NARBA since Rochester is within 100 miles of the Canadian border, but CFTR and Industry Canada made it happen anyway. The descendant of WNYR 680 now operates DA-2 on 990...at least they got unlimited hours over the controversy.
I recall visiting WNLC's manned AM site in the late 60s on a New England trip - IIRC, it was an impressive array - Dan, wasn't it 8 or 9 towers? They were running a Gates BC-10P2, I think.
F
freightliner
Guest
I believe the WNLC 10KW transmitter was an RCA (BTA-10T ?). Might have the model number wrong but it was an RCA and it was huge. The phasor across the hall was massive. There were 8 guyed towers (6 in-line and 2 to the rear of those). Day pattern was generated by 3 towers (#3 and #7 & #8 in a dog-leg). Night pattern at 5KW was fed to the 6 in-line towers with a pencil-thin lobe from the Waterford studio-transmitter site into New London and out to sea. The 10KW Nautel (which replaced the RCA) was transfered to a sister-Hall Communications station and modified for use as an AUX for WLKF (1430) in Lakeland Florida when WNLC left the air.
freightliner said:
What you didn't mention was that the WNLC site was a mere 77 miles from the WMEX site--even after WMEX went to 50 kW-D using a two tower array that sent most signal out to sea but covered inland pretty well even after the State St South office complex was built just west of the site. (Nights were a different story; the already marginal 5-kW night coverage simply vanished west of Quincy once that office complex went up.) However, what blew my mind when I found out about it was that WNLC's 10-kW day pattern (a broad, slightly asymmetrical modified cardioid) was aimed northeast--TOWARD WMEX!
As for CFTR, Bob, you seem to have forgotten the chapter about 2500W-D/10 kW-N DA-2, which, IIRC, was what CFTR ran before WNYR moved to 990. CFTR was one of the first AMs in North America to run higher power at night than during the day. In those days the CFTR Tx was southwest of Toronto--on the north shore of Lake Ontario. Both patterns sent the signal east-northeast across metro Toronto and along the lake shore. When it increased to 50-kW-U DA-2, CFTR moved to the south shore of the Lake (right near CJCL and the 640 station whose calls I forget--IIRC, it was CFMJ for some period). All three of those low-on-the-dial 50 kW-U AMs remain there to this day.
The WNLC story is a really fascinating one. you can see pictures of the 8-tower array at John Ramsey's "Hartford Radio History" site:
http://www.hartfordradiohistory.com/WNLC__AM_.html
If you do a Google Earth search for "Foster Road Waterford, CT" you can still see the parking lot, original concrete pad for the building, and the outline of where the 8 towers stood until the late 90's.
http://www.hartfordradiohistory.com/WNLC__AM_.html
If you do a Google Earth search for "Foster Road Waterford, CT" you can still see the parking lot, original concrete pad for the building, and the outline of where the 8 towers stood until the late 90's.
DanStrassberg said:
And they clobbered WMEX daytime throughout RI and well into MA!
WNLC was the first time I saw a station with so many towers. Impressive sight. I think (not sure) an 850 in PA has a great deal of steel in the air. Are (or were) there any other station TX sites with as many towers in the NE United States?
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F
freightliner
Guest
850 WKGE (formerly WJAC) in Johnstown PA has 9 sticks on well over 100 acres of land. 1190 KXFR Dallas-Fort Worth (home of the original KLIF) has 12 sticks for their nighttime pattern. Don't know of any with a dozen sticks in the Northeast. Anyone know of any ?
Did a Sunday road trip a couple of years back to check out WARM 590 in Free Township outside of Scranton. An in-line array of 5 tall and widely spaced towers that appeared to take up what had to be at least 80 acres. The 8 WNLC sticks were 220 feet tall and took up most of the 26 acres of land on Foster Road in Waterford.
Did a Sunday road trip a couple of years back to check out WARM 590 in Free Township outside of Scranton. An in-line array of 5 tall and widely spaced towers that appeared to take up what had to be at least 80 acres. The 8 WNLC sticks were 220 feet tall and took up most of the 26 acres of land on Foster Road in Waterford.
Dighton Rockhead said:
I think, had Mac lived past 1971, he would have evolved WMEX into a gritty, locally-oriented, all-talk station, taking the successful late-night talk programing that he pioneered with Williams and Glick (and later Steve Fredericks, who was also excellent), fleshing it out through the rest of the day. It would have been great! But, alas......
And don't forget the story (from more than one source) that he was talking about buying an FM at the time of his death.
Like I said, Mac was a whack job, but he knew how to make great radio.
Dan, you're absolutely right - CFTR did operate for a time DA-2 with 2.5kw DA-LS and 10kw DA-U. But IIRC there was a period of overlap after CFTR powered up to 50kw and WNYR was still on 680 in Rochester. I understood that was the impetus for the frequency move because the interference was unacceptable.
There was a lot of this going on with Canadian AMs in the late 70s. I was PD at 13Q Pittsburgh as we were struggling with skywave interference from CFGM Richmond Mills, Ontario, which had just powered to 50kw on 1320. My understanding was CFGM operated with a FIFTEEN tower array (3 x 5 towers.) I also heard they actually had a phasing BUILDING.
I do recall my early 1969 visit to WNLC with a college roommate whose family had a summer home in Westerly, RI - Dave was engineer and announcer during vacations at WERI when it was owned by the Grande family. WNLC's phasing system was open-rack type and IIRC you viewed the components and meters through glass windows or perhaps screens. LOTTA copper there. My understanding is the New London 1510 was bought out by WMEX which wanted to relax its day pattern for better general coverage in Boston.
There was a lot of this going on with Canadian AMs in the late 70s. I was PD at 13Q Pittsburgh as we were struggling with skywave interference from CFGM Richmond Mills, Ontario, which had just powered to 50kw on 1320. My understanding was CFGM operated with a FIFTEEN tower array (3 x 5 towers.) I also heard they actually had a phasing BUILDING.
I do recall my early 1969 visit to WNLC with a college roommate whose family had a summer home in Westerly, RI - Dave was engineer and announcer during vacations at WERI when it was owned by the Grande family. WNLC's phasing system was open-rack type and IIRC you viewed the components and meters through glass windows or perhaps screens. LOTTA copper there. My understanding is the New London 1510 was bought out by WMEX which wanted to relax its day pattern for better general coverage in Boston.
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