1600 WULM up for sale

[KFodor]

Wow! A lot of good comments and ideas here.

Before I comment further, let me state for the record: while I am employed by Cox Radio/Dayton, these are my ideas...and mine alone. I have never spoken with anyone from Atlanta or even senior management in Dayton about this. Take one look at my paycheck, and you'd realize I have nothing to do with corporate.

The reason I raise these points is: AM radio is badly broken. For it to survive, some type of fix is a necessity. Every station on AM can't be syndicated talk, religion or sports. By clearing out some of the "deadwood", the stations that remain might have a chance, especially if they figure out how to fix AM digital, and get the receivers in people's hands.

Kirkiefan: You said it all in your post: you talk about "struggling local market AM's" and that's exactly the point. WIZE is barely a cipher in the Clark County breakout most of the time. WULM hasn't shown up there since the Yontz's owned it. Those stations could be made profitable...but...not as standalones, unless you want to run satellite delivered programming with a skeleton staff, and what good is that to a local community? Now, Radio Maria will own WULM. Good for them. I can't wait to see the ratings for the nighttime programming with that whopping 36 watts (or whatever they have). Does Springfield deserve radio service? Absolutely. Does it need 3 stations? It's a question that could be raised.

For Hippo: Do I agree with the "need" to move a station 60 miles to put it in a bigger market? That depends. Does every small town need a Class B 50 Kilowatter? No. Less ground to cover makes a strong "A" a more wise choice. (Less on the power bill). Could those "B's" be put to better use in a bigger market? Perhaps. But, I agree I see little need to move a station just so it can be a flanker with 1 share.

And, we're in agreement about AM's in medium to large markets that are being "thrown away". So it is rumored, Clear Channel might like to sell WONE. They certainly deserve compensation for it, but I'd rather see that station in the hands of someone like Jim Johnson, who's taken a lousy daytime signal on 1210, kept it above a one share and provides a valuable local radio service with WDAO. That station might pull a 2 or more with a better signal....or the fulltime service might allow him to be more competitive. That might allow the FCC to get rid of 1210 entirely in Dayton. But, if any owner deserves more power and a better signal, it's Jim. But, again, I speak only in the context of: "if I ruled radio, I would..." I point the next comment at no one, but...if you're not trying to run a station to make it work, you shouldn't own the license. Dayton could survive with 2 AM's...maybe 3. Cincinnati and bigger markets, 3 or 4. And the smaller towns nearby a metro could be better served by the regional stations with accountability a requirement (see below).

I raised this idea on another of the boards, and a poster reminded me that there are some smaller communities in mountain regions where AM is viable, because it travels more easily in the rugged terrain. My thought was to reserve a portion of the AM band for "local service" (much like FM cordons off some space for non-comm, educationals), to accomodate AM owners, who, at renewal time can prove they are a viable, profitable part of their community. Let them explain how they handle local news, how they serve their local area...let businessmen in the area write letters to the Commission explaining how these stations help their businesses. These licensees could be granted new licenses in the "local service" portion with, say a minimum of 5 KW full time. Or at the very least, 5 KW day/2.5 KW night. Perhaps a station like WDAO might fit in this catagory. So, too...might the WBZI's of the world. If you gave them a 5K fulltime non-D signal, they probably wouldn't need 3 stations!

Absolutely, I would protect as many 50 K Clears as possible...maybe moving some in the reallocation of the band. Every other "regional" gets 10 K fulltime. But, regionals would also be held to the same standards as the "local service" stations. They'd have to show the FCC that they are truly programming to and covering their region. No daytimers. It's time to end that idea that was good back in the 50's...but makes no sense today. And I'd minimize as much as possible, directional stations. There could be cases where it's necessary and I can see room for some. But, non-D would be the rule of the day as much as humanly possible. I'm not against the idea of having "regional" stations in smaller towns, but the owner's would have to provide, and be ready to prove they are serving the "region". I can live with voicetracking (where it makes sense), I can live with consolidated staffs (actually, I kinda like being able to do different jobs within a station) but, I also want accountability back in ownership.

What do I mean? Every station should have to make a committment to news and public affairs coverage. Be it a small one, or a large one. No Xeroxed "issues list" in a public file that doesn't describe dates and times that programming aired that actually addressed the issues and what they were about. There are broadcasters who do this, others don't do as good of a job.

Every station should have an "emergency coverage plan" in the file, to cover those "what happens if" situations. I've heard it mentioned that the FCC might require daytimers to man their operations 24/7. I don't see where that's necessary or even possible. But at the absolute minimum, there should be a plan to cover those 3 AM emergencies. And the FCC should hold the owner's feet to the fire if they don't come through in a pinch. Though cluster operations in most cities, if not all, should have at least one person in the building 24/7 to handle the 3 AM emergency and call in the troops when needed.

You ask me where to start: I say everywhere. Big markets...and little ones. I'm not trying to "protect" any corporate entity here. I want to see the problem fixed. Radio spectrum is finite. (Unless the FCC changes that!) "Everybody" can't own their own terrestrial radio station...and junking up either AM or FM with more stations than they can handle to satisfy various political factions does radio no good in the long run. Yes, I want, appreciate and welcome minority ownership. But constantly backing off on channel protection standards to allow the "creation" of more tiny stations that will get tiny audiences and make tiny money while interference on FM escalates is not the way to make it happen. If you do, FM will be like AM in about, oh...10 years or less.

Generally, I'm for some level of LP-FM's provided...they offer a unique local service to their coverage area. Sorry, but piped-in religion from a big FM 60 miles away is not a "unique local service" in my book. I also think LP-FM's should be allowed to sell commercial time. Let me do my best Neal Boortz impersonation and call the baby "ugly" here. That stipulation was forced by "Big Radio" (whoever that is), because some people were afraid that somebody might get an LP-FM license and give the bigger local station a run for its' money. The FCC's answer (were it truly concerned about expanding "localism") should have been "tough"! But, in supporting LP-FM, giving 2 or 3 of these peashooters to virtually every community in America would be a nightmare of interference that needs to be avoided, period. Why? Spectrum is finite. If you want a ton of LP-FM's, let's expand the FM band a bit, and carve out some frequencies for the low power guys. Make it (I don't know) 85 Mhz-108 Mhz. Terrestrial TV's about to go away. Maybe a small amount of spectrum space for low powered local stations might make sense.

And, please don't get the idea I'm "anti religious radio". I'm not. WFCJ....WEEC...WCDR...all provide great service to their listeners. I'm just against the idea of a religious broadcaster in, say, Cleveland putting his station's programming on 2,000 LP-FM's..simply...to make money. (Ok, sorry, I'm calling the baby "ugly" here, too...) You want more stations? Buy stations that cover some ground! There are numerous religious entities (not all, to be certain) who could afford it.

All this having been said, I want to repeat something I've said on other boards here. Not every corporation is doing radio right these days...but not every corporation is screwing it up, either. Most radio companies, if they own stations in markets of any size are corporations, anyway. There are "corporate" owners who own 15-25 stations. Corporate owners who own a hundred or less. And, a lot of them do radio pretty well. But, no argument...there's always room for improvement.

OK...I've now written a small book here. If I've forgotten anyone on it, call me on it and I'll respond again. I don't necessarily think I've got everything right here, either. But, I think it's time in the industry to have this discussion. I care...and you should. Let's talk about it.

 

[SFIND]

As to the case for WULM, it was doomed once it left the Yontz family and unfortunately Ron did not have the business acumen and community devotion of his late father. On the other end of the spectrum WBZI in Xenia seems to be getting along quite well with a dedicated local owner. Recently they have added additional live DJ programming on the weekends. If someone like Joe Mullins had come along instead of Urban Light it might still be a local station for Springfield. Urban Light once had applications for LPFM and that might have been their forte. Hopefully WEEC can step in to provide more Springfield programming, maybe picking up "Speak Out" and the St. John's services and "Crossing Over".

Crossing Over will go to WCDR, where it was before ULM bought WBLY.

WEEC now has a golden opportunity, especially with their HD channels, to provide more local programming.

But don't pick up the remains of WULM.

Speak Out had a great premice, but I (and other I talked with) couldn't stand Larry Spicer.

I loved the sports show on Saturdays, because the guys on there are great guys, but I admit the show was disfunctional and irrelevant.

So get a new local talk show, get a new local sports show, but do it on your own. Bring in new faces.

GO SOUTH!!!!!

 

[major]

I think one of the biggest problems in radio is the price of the stations. They sold for way too much money when consolidation went haywire and now, with the bills coming due, there's not enough money coming in. Hence, layoff after layoff, satellite delivered programming, etc. To Hell with the localized "hands-on" approach. That costs too much.

 

[hipporadio]

GOOD POINT, Major! As one who entered the "biz" back in the mid-80s at "a mere 500k" [overpaid] - then sold to a suitor [post-TelCom] for 2.5 mil - I WOULD AGREE, but at least I was paid-off

Stations have gotten WAAAAAY TOO expensive reletive to their off-put... Thanks mostly to the conveluted projections of corporate radio [hence, the WIFE fiasco]. Please allow me call for a return of the "three year rule" AND "replacement facility" requirements!

The "Regulators" have clearly FAILED!

BTW Jason... When that "B" [WIFE] was moved to Norwood - it DID NOT remain a "B"!!!

Comments?

 

[nmoore6676]

GOOD POINT, Major! As one who entered the "biz" back in the mid-80s at "a mere 500k" [overpaid] - then sold to a suitor [post-TelCom] for 2.5 mil - I WOULD AGREE, but at least I was paid-off

Stations have gotten WAAAAAY TOO expensive reletive to their off-put... Thanks mostly to the conveluted projections of corporate radio [hence, the WIFE fiasco]. Please allow me call for a return of the "three year rule" AND "replacement facility" requirements!

Comments?

Another interesting question knowing the price of the equipment needed to actually get on the air. The sales price for WULM seems a bit high, especially given the need for a new transmitter as discussed here. Also there is the issue of a possible power increase and transmitter (tower) relocation in order to cover Dayton. It has been noted here that Smilin' Bob had commissioned a study in the 80's for an increase to 5KW with a directional antenna system. I would imagine that, in addition of getting a higher HAAT for the FM side, possibility was the reason for moving to Miller Road. The land purchased would have seemed sufficient but now that the FM is no longer co-owned and the land and tower went with the FM putting a multi tower array is no longer a likely possibility. WULM only rents the use of the tower for I think something like a folded dipole strung up side of the mast.

My point being that for Radio Maria or a local community owner to put up a new station from scratch might be more cost effective. Since Urban Light Ministries was in default they could have surrendered the license and bankrupted out from under the bank debt. As it is any proceeds will go to the bank and ULM still has lost money.

 

[gr8oldies]

"Crossing Over" (sponsored by the Clark Co Dept of Job and Family Services)was never on WCDR although they do carry Eli Williams "Urban Light Radio". The sale docs are online at the fcc site..it does reference the sale could still fall through if the seller does not solve the interference issue with the Kettering TIS. $250k? Some people will pay anything for a signal, even one as crappy as that one.

 

[techie2]

With religion, signal and ratings don't matter as long as someone can be convinced to send in money...

 

[hipporadio]

...Also there is the issue of a possible power increase and transmitter (tower) relocation in order to cover Dayton....

There is little doubt in my mind that 1600-Springfield could go to 5kw[or well-above] given a COMPLEX directional antenna... ‘Question remains – would it be worth it? If LOCAL is the intent [and it should be] - remember – little is accomplished above 1kw ND at the high-end of the AM band. Why not keep it at that 1kw level [day] and explore a creative solution to the night-time situation FOR SPRINGFIELD.

The former WBLY - now-WULM could cover Springfield nicely [as it has for nearly FIFTY YEARS] at 1kw... ‘Now let’s solve the post-sunset dilemma... ARGGGG :-\

 

[SFIND]

"Crossing Over" (sponsored by the Clark Co Dept of Job and Family Services)was never on WCDR although they do carry Eli Williams "Urban Light Radio". The sale docs are online at the fcc site..it does reference the sale could still fall through if the seller does not solve the interference issue with the Kettering TIS. $250k? Some people will pay anything for a signal, even one as crappy as that one.

My bad, mixed the two up.

GO SOUTH!!!!!

 

[KFodor]

...Also there is the issue of a possible power increase and transmitter (tower) relocation in order to cover Dayton....

There is little doubt in my mind that 1600-Springfield could go to 5kw[or well-above] given a COMPLEX directional antenna... ‘Question remains – would it be worth it? If LOCAL is the intent [and it should be] - remember – little is accomplished above 1kw ND at the high-end of the AM band. Why not keep it at that 1kw level [day] and explore a creative solution to the night-time situation FOR SPRINGFIELD.

The former WBLY - now-WULM could cover Springfield nicely [as it has for nearly FIFTY YEARS] at 1kw... ‘Now let’s solve the post-sunset dilemma... ARGGGG :-\

Hippo:

An engineer friend of mine once told me it could be done. I've heard 5 KW as the daytime power, too. But, I think it would still be good as a Springfield station. There is little that could be done, formatically speaking, that would draw any type of large audience in Dayton. Unless you're in a situation like Radio Maria where you don't care much about whether you have listeners or not...just that donations are coming in....

 

[gr8oldies]

First of all, land for a directional array wouldn't be that easy to come by "NIMBY" with those towers. 2nd, if it couldn't make it with several different formats independently, whos to say nighttime would make that much difference. If WIZE and WKSW can become a combo, great, there's nighttime coverage at least in Springfield but I think 1600 is about good enough to recite the rosary all day.

 

[MikeSFNM]

Jason,

That was a cheap shot at Radio Maria. If you knew anything about the organization, you would know that it is essentially a volunteer organization; there are very few paid employees (station manager, program director, engineer, and console operators) and it is concerned with a lot more than money coming in. The traditional argument from people who do not like organized religion --in other words, churches and allied organizations-- is that the people are in it only for the money. Not so; most people I've met in religious organizations are people of conviction. Now, one may not agree with those convictions, but to accuse them of having only mercenary goals is to do them an injustice. I have visited the studios in Alexandria many a time and have been greatly impressed by the honesty and integrity of the people who work there; I have not visited the people in Ohio, but have corresponded a great deal with them and I can assure you that their only concern with getting donations is that they can pay the bills. Nobody gets rich in Catholic radio, especially Radio Maria.

Point of fact: Radio Maria USA struggles to make ends meet, even with a heavy volunteer organization. Radio Maria may be Catholic but I can assure you nobody in the clergy picks up its bills, not a diocese, not a bishop, not a parish church, not a religious order. In fact, Radio Maria was founded primarily by laymen of conviction.

Now, there are those who hate to see the last locally owned station the Springfield market go religion, there may be those who do not like religious programming, there may be those who do not like the Catholic Church. As for the first "reason," others in this forum have pointed out that the station has never broken even in recent years despite a series of owners who tried their best. As for the second "reason," that is personal preference. As for the third "reason," those who dislike the Catholic Church are entitled to their own opinion. There are a lot of churches in this nation of ours that I have no use for, but they are entitled to offer their "messages" to the public, too, all things being equal. I do not care to listen to their stations and do not watch their TV stations, either. But I would not shut them down simply because I do not like their organizations.

 

[kirkiefan]

The operative words here are definately "Lay People." Father Duane Stenzel O.F.M. is the only working clergyman to my knowledge at its Alexandria base...the rest are lay people. Father Stenzel is program director but he also wears several hats there...he serves as a presenter (not host) of several programs there including a bi monthly program geared to recovering alcoholics and addicts...similar to Eli's "Crossing Over" program...a Bible study program,celebrates the morning Mass, and offers up prayers to those who have urgent needs on Monday and Thursday.

Everyone else in Alexandria are lay people. From station manager Kelly Hatcher down to Chester,Frank and Renee who operate the on air console...the rest are volunteers.

Emanuelle Ferrario over at its main base in Italy is also a lay person. He heads up the whole international operation. RM is predominantly volunteer lay people. Mary Pyper coordinates the local operations and Alicia Risko coordinates the local volunteer base.

 

[radiogeek07]

The operative words here are definately "Lay People." Father Duane Stenzel O.F.M. is the only working clergyman to my knowledge at its Alexandria base...the rest are lay people. Father Stenzel is program director but he also wears several hats there...he serves as a presenter (not host) of several programs there including a bi monthly program geared to recovering alcoholics and addicts...similar to Eli's "Crossing Over" program...a Bible study program,celebrates the morning Mass, and offers up prayers to those who have urgent needs on Monday and Thursday.

Everyone else in Alexandria are lay people. From station manager Kelly Hatcher down to Chester,Frank and Renee who operate the on air console...the rest are volunteers.

Emanuelle Ferrario over at its main base in Italy is also a lay person. He heads up the whole international operation. RM is predominantly volunteer lay people. Mary Pyper coordinates the local operations and Alicia Risko coordinates the local volunteer base.

I had a less than positive experience with Radio Maria while running UD's radio station. They came to uh check out our studios unannounced one day, and they walked around like they owned the place.
They wanted us to help them with some of their programming, but hell, with a volunteer staff of our own, we were lucky to take care of our programming, let alone set aside time for theirs.
They also wanted to hook up with an organization I was apart of and wanted us to broadcast music. When I asked if they had the appropriate license to broadcast the music... they had no idea what I was talking about. They have well-inteneed people, but if they aren't careful, they could find themselves in biiiiiig legal trouble. The RIAA and FCC don't exactly have forgiving hearts even if a volunteer staff is running a shoe-string radio station.

 

[nmoore6676]

I think that MikeSFNM may have overreacted, perhaps misconstrued, Jason's comments. Any community radio operation and religious ones as well depend on donations if they are non-commercial. Generally they go after some specific interest or religious community and depend upon those people to support them. because they are not seeking ads and depend upon ratings they have no concern with the numbers. If you only have a thousand listeners but the each one sends you a hundred dollars a month you would be just fine.

As to any possible increase in power that would depend on whether they can get a site. A move to Dayton would be easier still at 1KW they could probably work out a diplex arrangement with some other station already there. When I lived back there I could get WBLY from just out of Columbus and most of the way to Richmond. I remember picking it up at Indian Lake pretty good even with a table radio. In Dayton it would get lost under the trolley wires downtown. I realize interference is worse now and radios aren't what they used to be, many here have commented on the state of the transmitter plant so I doubt they get usable reception like back then. If they move closer to Dayton and get a new more efficient transmitter they will do just fine. Of course interested and devoted listeners will put up with a little static to hear what they want.

 

[KFodor]

Jason,

That was a cheap shot at Radio Maria. If you knew anything about the organization, you would know that it is essentially a volunteer organization; there are very few paid employees (station manager, program director, engineer, and console operators) and it is concerned with a lot more than money coming in. The traditional argument from people who do not like organized religion --in other words, churches and allied organizations-- is that the people are in it only for the money. Not so; most people I've met in religious organizations are people of conviction. Now, one may not agree with those convictions, but to accuse them of having only mercenary goals is to do them an injustice. I have visited the studios in Alexandria many a time and have been greatly impressed by the honesty and integrity of the people who work there; I have not visited the people in Ohio, but have corresponded a great deal with them and I can assure you that their only concern with getting donations is that they can pay the bills. Nobody gets rich in Catholic radio, especially Radio Maria.

Point of fact: Radio Maria USA struggles to make ends meet, even with a heavy volunteer organization. Radio Maria may be Catholic but I can assure you nobody in the clergy picks up its bills, not a diocese, not a bishop, not a parish church, not a religious order. In fact, Radio Maria was founded primarily by laymen of conviction.

Now, there are those who hate to see the last locally owned station the Springfield market go religion, there may be those who do not like religious programming, there may be those who do not like the Catholic Church. As for the first "reason," others in this forum have pointed out that the station has never broken even in recent years despite a series of owners who tried their best. As for the second "reason," that is personal preference. As for the third "reason," those who dislike the Catholic Church are entitled to their own opinion. There are a lot of churches in this nation of ours that I have no use for, but they are entitled to offer their "messages" to the public, too, all things being equal. I do not care to listen to their stations and do not watch their TV stations, either. But I would not shut them down simply because I do not like their organizations.

First of all, as a former alter boy who learned the Mass in latin at a very young age, let's dispense with the anti-Catholic talk, OK? (And no, there's no need to offer any "mea culpas" here...no offense taken.)

I have no problems with the Catholic Church, Radio Maria or any religious organization for that matter owning and operating radio stations. Now, I'll admit (and Radio Maria is not included in the next statement), I've got problems with some religious organizations attempting to purchase LP-FM and translator licenses by the thousands with the sole intent of retransmitting out of town programming in far away cities and towns. LP-FM's, you see, are supposed to be providing some form of "local" programming, not to be used as a "quasi-satellite" service. The original intent of translators was to help a station with signal difficulties within a city environment shore up its' service in a city area, such as a downtown, not to, again, use them to take the signal of one station and "syndicate" it nationwide, or regionally. This falls outside, in my opinion, of the spirit if not the letter of the service the FCC was trying to create. But, when you have an FCC that doesn't give a hoot about oversight, such as the one we have now, I guess that's just bound to happen. (I hope you FCC guys read this...)

Now, to Radio Maria. I respect their mission and, actually wish them well. I know it's a shoestring operation. But, frankly, some of the laymen involved should learn a little more, in my opinion, about station acquisitions. They're not exactly batting a thousand here, from a standpoint of common-sense. Allow me to explain:

If you go to their website, there presently are 6 stations listed. WULM would be #7. If you look up each station's predicted coverage, power levels and whatnot, it would appear currently that 3 of the 7 (KJMJ, KDEI, and KOJO) are what I would call "keepers". KJMJ and KDEI are 5 KW day/1 KW night. KJMJ is low on the band (580), KDEI is up around 1200. KJMJ is the best of the lot, but KDEI's day signal should be good, the night signal touchy in spots, but useable.
KOJO in Lake Charles is a C3 FM...it, too seems like it should do them alright.

KNIR, though, in New Iberia is what I would call an "iffy" signal at best. 1 KW day/209 watts a night at 1360. According to the predicted contours, it barely reaches Baton Rouge during the day, and won't get anywhere near Lafayette at night. Remember, "predicted" contours don't take into account the massive interference on the AM band, IBOC noise, etc. All of their stations (as is true with all AM's in America) most likely get far less coverage at night than the "predicted" contour.

WHJM in Anna, Ohio. It's a Class A FM non-comm with only 1 KW. From the predicted contour, it appears to cover a whole lot of farmland in Auglaize and Shelby counties. Not a lot of people there. Granted, Minster, Ohio is heavily Catholic, but its' population is less than 3,000. A standard 6 KW Class A gets you about 15 miles or so of "decent" coverage, with maybe 5 miles or so of coverage that's spotty. With only 1,000 watts of FM...you're going to get, probably, about 8 to 10 miles of "decent" coverage, and about another 5 that's "spotty". Hope they didn't pay much for that.

KBIO in Natchitoches, Louisiana. I can only hope its' signal soaks a predominantly Catholic population. Because that whopping 100 watt signal doesn't even cover the whole city. In fact, according to "predicted" contours, it's best signal is 5 miles around the tower. Maybe another 2 or 3 that's "spotty".

Now, let's talk WULM. If the reported $250,000 price tag is true, they're overpaying for it by a whole bunch. Because some people who were also interested in the station before Radio Maria got involved told me due to the lack of any real estate and assets to speak of, the station was really only worth between $80-100 thousand. You're paying for a license, and a transmitter in marginal condition...that's about it.

If this was done with the intent to permit Urban Light Ministries to help pay off some of its' debt, that's Christian charity and I salute it. It could also be worthwhile should there be any thought of attempting to upgrade the station by moving it closer to Dayton. But, before you can even talk about that, you've got some big repair bills ahead of you. The transmitter, so I'm told, is unable to pass anything near full modulation, due to lack of preventative maintenance. The current antenna doesn't provide near the grounding to give anything near the signal of the original WBLY. If they think they're getting a "Dayton" station, forget it. The signal fades around Fairborn and is barely audible in Kettering. There's some rather large maintenance bills in Radio Maria's future if you want to get the signal back anywhere near what it once was.

The night signal? You don't even cover all of Springfield. I get it a little past Route 41 on I-70 and lose it around Route 68. It's, basically, a daytimer.

Move it to Dayton and increase the power? It may be possible...if you're ready to pay a couple million to make it all happen.

Given how the radio multiples are collapsing at this point a couple million might buy you a whole lot better station a year or two down the road.

So, you see, my whole point is: if you're going to have any chance of paying expenses (and saving souls), you need to have stations people can hear. Catholic programming is, but one piece of the religious radio "pie". If religious radio reaches, let's say, 25% of the total radio audience, Catholic radio can attract, perhaps, 5 to 7% of it. To maximize what you've got, you have to have good facilities. The inherent value of AM stations decrease every day...given the fact that the stations are listened to by few people under age 35. Soon, it'll be under 45.

If Radio Maria can pay the bills with WULM and save a few souls in the process, more power to them. I just think some of their "acquisitions" are questionable. That's not anti-Catholic. That's common sense business.