-
Get involved.
We want your input!
Apply for Membership and join the conversations about everything related to broadcasting.
After we receive your registration, a moderator will review it. After your registration is approved, you will be permitted to post.
If you use a disposable or false email address, your registration will be rejected.
After your membership is approved, please take a minute to tell us a little bit about yourself.
https://www.radiodiscussions.com/forums/introduce-yourself.1088/
Thanks in advance and have fun!
RadioDiscussions Administrators
2 Out Of 3 Aint Bad - Oct PPM
- Thread starter DrAkbar
- Start date
It looks like KZON may end up being the moneymaker in the CBS Phoenix cluster. They also have the top spot among the cumes this book too.
:-X
Call...for...Philip 25-54s!
http://www.radio-info.com/markets/phoenix
Age 6+ overall publicly released data for the period Thu. 9/16/10 to Wed. 10/13/10.
Next monthly report will be for November 2010 (Thu. 10/14/10 to Wed. 11/10/10) with the release date of Thu. 12/2/10.
Age 6+ overall publicly released data for the period Thu. 9/16/10 to Wed. 10/13/10.
Next monthly report will be for November 2010 (Thu. 10/14/10 to Wed. 11/10/10) with the release date of Thu. 12/2/10.
pjc1961 said:
Surprised to see KKLD getting some solid ratings in the Phoenix market, coming in at #43 with a 0.2 share. In my opinion, KKLD is more of an "oldies" station than KOOL with more frequent airplay of hits from the 1960's. Also, you're more likely to hear deeper hits from the 60's on KKLD.
What continues to be a disappointment in the ratings is the performance of KTAR-AM. Sports on AM just doesn't seem to garner ratings anymore, at least in this market. Maybe it's time for KTAR to move sports to FM. Sports 98.7 anyone?
Lastly, where's our beloved Lumberyard in the ratings? KAZG has someday got to show up in the ratings book, especially with Kim and Don stirring up some spicy food talk every afternoon! ;D
As a side note, what has happened to AM radio in Phoenix? In my hometown of Chicago, the current ratings have three AM stations in the top five spots of the ratings, including the #1 overall spot going to WBBM with a 6.2 share, a whole 1 point higher than the #2 spot, which goes to WVAZ-FM. In third is perennial AM powerhouse WGN with a 4.6 share and fifth is WLS-AM with a 4.3 share. Phoenix, on the other hand, has NO AM station in the top five.
My take on this is two-fold. First off, Phoenix has weak signals on the AM dial. The "strong" AM signals (620 KTAR, 550 KFYI and perhaps Radio Disney on 1580 AM) pale in comparison to the 50,000 watts coming from the aforementioned AM Chicago stations. WGN, WLS and WBBM are all former clear channel stations and can be heard all across the country at night. On the other hand, Phoenix AM stations can barely be heard outside the metro area at night. This makes most Phoenix AM stations unlistenable in the suburbs and, as such, will affect ratings. Who wants to listen to static out in Mesa when they can listen to FM?
Secondly, the offerings on Phoenix AM radio are dismissal, especially when compared to Chicago. Chicago has a world-class talk station in the form of WGN, which has all local, live talent and is the radio home of the Cubs and Stanley Cup Champion Blackhawks. WLS-AM has also revamped their line-up and offers half local talent and half national personalities like Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity. WLS also carries Notre Dame Football games. Finally, the Chicago #1, WBBM, is an all-news station, something that we could desperately use in Phoenix. Compare that with Phoenix's three top AM stations, KFYI, KTAR and KGME, and you can see how much better the Chicago AM stations are.
So, to conclude, what can be done in Phoenix to make AM a more viable option for the average radio listener? Would the FCC ever allow Phoenix AM's to increase their night-time power? ???
My take on this is two-fold. First off, Phoenix has weak signals on the AM dial. The "strong" AM signals (620 KTAR, 550 KFYI and perhaps Radio Disney on 1580 AM) pale in comparison to the 50,000 watts coming from the aforementioned AM Chicago stations. WGN, WLS and WBBM are all former clear channel stations and can be heard all across the country at night. On the other hand, Phoenix AM stations can barely be heard outside the metro area at night. This makes most Phoenix AM stations unlistenable in the suburbs and, as such, will affect ratings. Who wants to listen to static out in Mesa when they can listen to FM?
Secondly, the offerings on Phoenix AM radio are dismissal, especially when compared to Chicago. Chicago has a world-class talk station in the form of WGN, which has all local, live talent and is the radio home of the Cubs and Stanley Cup Champion Blackhawks. WLS-AM has also revamped their line-up and offers half local talent and half national personalities like Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity. WLS also carries Notre Dame Football games. Finally, the Chicago #1, WBBM, is an all-news station, something that we could desperately use in Phoenix. Compare that with Phoenix's three top AM stations, KFYI, KTAR and KGME, and you can see how much better the Chicago AM stations are.
So, to conclude, what can be done in Phoenix to make AM a more viable option for the average radio listener? Would the FCC ever allow Phoenix AM's to increase their night-time power? ???
asugeorge1 said:
Interestingly, while the perception is that Phoenix is "old" it is actually young, and AM has nearly zero appeal to younger demos.
Chicago has 4 former Class A-1 clears (670, 720, 780, 890). Phoenix does not have what used to be a 1 A or 1 B. None. Chicago has several other very good signals, like WMVP and WIND, too.
And one of the operators of a half-decent AM has moved the news talk format to FM, where it does very well in 25-54.
Finally, Phoenix is not market #3... big difference in revenues... $500 million in revenues vs. $190 million.
1580 is a non-player at night... 50 kw on 1580 gets less coverage than 2 kw on 550. And 1580 is horribly directional at night. The stations are poor facilities because the good allocations came in the 30's, when there were a few tens of thousands of people in PHX. No need... and when PHX grew, there were no channels or any way to improve.
Small exaggeration... There's a 50 kw on 720 in Las Vegas, for example... those stations can be heard for about 500 miles well, at night. But most radio listening is not at night.
No. Were it possible, it would already be done. And when a station ups power, we get directional abortions like 1580. In any case, who would spend that kind of money on an AM today?
asugeorge1 said:
0.2 is within the margin of error of the survey, just a meter or two can produce a 0.2... and remember the KKLD signal gets into a bit of Maricopa County, and all Maricopa County is the Phoenix MSA.
An average of around 2.5 in 25-54 men is not too bad. Add in the mid to low-4 shares for Persons 25-54 for KTAR FM, and you have a nice chunk of listening.
asugeorge1 said:
Most Phoenix AM stations cannot be heard at night in much of the metro - including KFYI and KTAR. Physically, the Phoenix metro area is about 2/3 the size of metro Chicago, with about half the population. Some stations don't even cover their own city of license at night, notably KDUS which has almost zero signal on the south side of the city (south of Elliot Rd).
Even 50 kW KMIK is so directional at night that it doesn't make it to the Avenues very well from its north Mesa stick. Plus, 50 kW on 1580 is equivalent to about 1 kW on 550 (KFYI's night power).
The Chicago metro has had 20-25 AM stations going back to the 1920s. Six run 50 kW fulltime.
Phoenix had three (550, 620, 1230) until 1947, when KOOL (now KKNT) 960 first started up. Only KTAR, KGME, KKNT, and KMIK run 5 kW or more at night, and only KTAR can come even somewhat close to a full-metro signal.
Phoenix's local talk station (KTAR-FM) moved to FM three years ago, and is the rough equivalent of WGN. The other major talker (KFYI) is owned by Clear Channel, who prefers to run its own national programming outside of drive times. KKNT, being owned by Salem is the equivalent of WIND. KGME is also owned by CC and makes Fox Sports Net their priority. There is no FSR presence in Chicago, nor does CC own any major AMs there.
There is no all-news station in Phoenix because the only two companies that are successful in that field are CBS and Bonneville. CBS doesn't own AMs here, and TMISU only operate one (and own two), which is sports. Without a 50 kW stick owned by one of those two companies, all-news is a non-starter. Besides, folks in sun belt cities are notorious for not giving a rat's you-know-what about news. Check out what passes for TV newscasts here and you'll see what I mean - 90% fluff, 10% news. KNX doesn't do all that well in LA either, and CBS shut down KFWB's news format there last year.
Chicago has been Market #2 or #3 for the entire existence of broadcasting. Phoenix may be #12 now, but was mid-market until the '90s and was small market prior to about 1960.
You're comparing apples to oranges.
Move them to FM and quit wasting expensive electricity on transmitters that don't get listened to.
Not a chance. Too close to Mexico (treaty issues, although AM radio in Mexico is going the way of AM radio in Canada - that is, off the air with a few exceptions), plus co-channel stations in the US would have to be protected. When stations like KOY (then on 550) and KTAR could have upgraded, in the 1940s, it wasn't necessary. The Phoenix metro only had about 200,000 people then, and 5 kW was more than enough to cover it. Our explosive growth happened in the '60s and later, but by then, it was too late.
Thanks for the replies David and Keith. Very informative!
I definitely understand why Phoenix doesn't have stronger-powered AM radio stations, it's just unfortunate that someone back in the day didn't foresee the growth that was going to come to Phoenix and jump on the clear channel bandwagon in the 1940's and 50's. 620 KTAR and 550 KFYI could easily have become a clear channel station since there is no other clear channel station for 620 or 550 in Canada, Mexico and the United States. Phoenix is definitely in a tough spot since it's very close to the Mexican border and gets a lot of interference from Mexican radio stations. KTAR is frequently over-powered by XESS outside the Phoenix metro area and the only other Phoenix station that I have been able to pick-up at night in California is KMIK on 1580.
I also agree about the Phoenix market when it comes to all-news radio. Cities that tend to have a higher portion of their population holding college degrees, like Chicago, San Francisco, Seattle and New York City are able to support all-news radio stations and Phoenix is not one of those cities. I wish that would change because I feel the news-talk stations out here are terribly biased in their news reports and all-news radio stations tend to stick to the facts and show no bias. As I've said before, the only station that could go all-news is KTAR, but as long as they remain mostly Talk, they will continue to injunct their political views into the news. Maybe someday Phoenix will get a better, non-biased news radio station!
I definitely understand why Phoenix doesn't have stronger-powered AM radio stations, it's just unfortunate that someone back in the day didn't foresee the growth that was going to come to Phoenix and jump on the clear channel bandwagon in the 1940's and 50's. 620 KTAR and 550 KFYI could easily have become a clear channel station since there is no other clear channel station for 620 or 550 in Canada, Mexico and the United States. Phoenix is definitely in a tough spot since it's very close to the Mexican border and gets a lot of interference from Mexican radio stations. KTAR is frequently over-powered by XESS outside the Phoenix metro area and the only other Phoenix station that I have been able to pick-up at night in California is KMIK on 1580.
I also agree about the Phoenix market when it comes to all-news radio. Cities that tend to have a higher portion of their population holding college degrees, like Chicago, San Francisco, Seattle and New York City are able to support all-news radio stations and Phoenix is not one of those cities. I wish that would change because I feel the news-talk stations out here are terribly biased in their news reports and all-news radio stations tend to stick to the facts and show no bias. As I've said before, the only station that could go all-news is KTAR, but as long as they remain mostly Talk, they will continue to injunct their political views into the news. Maybe someday Phoenix will get a better, non-biased news radio station!
asugeorge1 said:
550 and 620 are not clear channels. KTAR has to protect stations in Portland and Dallas. KFYI doesn't have to protect anybody since it only runs 1000 watts at night, but if they were to upgrade to 5 kW, they would have to protect Midland TX to the east, Craig CO to the northeast, and Bakersfield CA to the northwest, all of whom null in the direction of Phoenix. Not worth it since those nulls are toward areas where the money is.
Phoenix is one of the most conservative metro areas in the country. Folks apparently like KFYI and KTAR-FM just as they are. Liberal-talker KPHX is a nonentity, and members of the Liberal-American community can always listen to NPR on 91.5, and with a much better signal than 1480 will ever have.
And if CBS wanted to switch one of their FMs to news, they would have done so by now.
KeithE4 said:
550 and 620 were originally class III stations, limited to 5 kw max. Only in recent years have
some class IIIs (now termed class B) been able to boost power to 10, even 50 gallons. The KT'R
620 null toward Dallas is--I believe--actually toward Wichita Falls, TX. The station there did a
"move-in" to Plano (DFW market) and I'm sure it was done at its own risk, and KT'R did not
have to tweak its pattern. Move-in KMKI still has to protect Phoenix, among other places.
LOL! Another hyphenated "protected" group? Certainly in the eyes of the state-run media. ;D
Both 5~Fifty and 6~Twenty cover the metro just fine at night...but who the hell is listening? Plus given the fact that most people under the age of 55 can't relate to Ancient Modulation, signal coverage aint the issue. The reason some of the dinos still roam (WGN, KFI, KGO, etc) is because their programming is compelling or unique. But alas, even they will succumb to the tar pit of old technology and the acreage for their towers become condos or the next big box store. Welcome to Wal-Mart...what can I help you find?
Dr. Akbar said:
I get your drift (not to be confused with "lamptimer drift"), but doubtful that the KGO tower
site can be converted to housing or a Home Medical Marijuana De-"pot"...it's in a marsh next
to San Francisco Bay at the east end of the Dumbarton Bridge.
Been a while since we've received any 25-54s hasn't it?
asugeorge1 said:
The 1A and 1B clear channel frequencies were established, and put into use in the early 30's (irrespective of the NARBA moves affecting some of them).
Those channels were created and filed for long before there was any idea that Phoenix might be a big city; it was even before air conditioning was feasable!
"Clear channels" are frequencies set up more than 60 years ago to allow 1 station (1-A clears) or a couple of stations (1-B's) in the whole continental US. Canada got some, and so did Mexico and even the Bahamas!
1-A's are 640,650,660,670,700,720,750,760, etc. 1-B's are 810, 850, 680, 710, etc. Mexican clears are 540, 730, 800, 900, etc. All this dates back to the 30's, so there were no new stations except "shoe-ins" like 1060 Tempe or 990 Tucson afterwards.
550 and 620, as already mentioned, were regional channels with a maximum power until the last +/- 15 years of 5 kw. Neither KOY nor KTAR could have upgraded.
Mexico and the US and Canada share regional channels by treaty and agreement. Mexico is entitled to use the AM band, too (although they want to move about 80% of stations to FM).
I've never heard that one before. All news seldom prospers outside the top 10 markets, because the smaller markets can't produce the needed cume. It's not about education, it is about ratings mathematics and the importance of news... DC outperforms, LA, Dallas, underperform and Houston has none!
DavidEduardo said:
Despite exponential population growth in sun belt cities such as Phoenix, all-news radio has not done well in these markets. San Francisco and Seattle are the only two markets I can think of outside the Northeast and Midwest where all-news has been successful.
- Status