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2 reasons i don't like HD

X

Xkrusdx

as i have posted before. the delay in the digital signal. . .(who knows when it really is the top of the hour anymore???)
And. . .
Digital hash on AM and FM.
i live in Trenton, N.J. all FM's from New York City (except 106.7-Lite-FM) are totally unlistenable now because of the hash coming from Phildelphia FM's.

just my $0.02

thanx,

--D.C.--
 
> as i have posted before. the delay in the digital signal. .
> .(who knows when it really is the top of the hour
> anymore???)
> And. . .
> Digital hash on AM and FM.
> i live in Trenton, N.J. all FM's from New York City (except
> 106.7-Lite-FM) are totally unlistenable now because of the
> hash coming from Phildelphia FM's.
>
> just my $0.02
>
> thanx,
>
> --D.C.--
>


I never thought about that problem arising from the delay! You could re-adjust your clock by -8 seconds and it should be OK! :)

If you have the ability, can you e-mail me a sound file of the FM hash? I'd be interested in hearing it! I haven't experienced that at all out here.<P ID="signature">______________
</P>
 
> If you have the ability, can you e-mail me a sound file of
> the FM hash? I'd be interested in hearing it! I haven't
> experienced that at all out here.

It mostly sounds like poor reception; I've scanned the dial myself in Trenton, and what was formerly a clear stereo signal from an NYC station gets turned into a hissy mono signal when the IBOC hash from a neighboring Philly signal is trying to drown it out. Previous generations of FM IBOC, as tested on NYC's 102.7 WNEW in the late '90s, had a distinct "buzzing" sound to the sidebands, but now it mostly sounds like FM's ubiquitous white-noise static hiss, except with a slight "swarm of bees" type of sound to it.

BTW, I've also noticed that when I set my Denon TU-680NAB tuner to narrow bandwidth mode on FM, its seek tuning stops on the IBOC sidebands of strong signals... in fact it often will stop on the IBOC sidebands, and not on the IBOC station's main-channel signal itself. For example, if I try to seek upwards to 95.5 WPLJ, it will often stop on 95.4 MHz, and then if I hit the upwards seek button again, instead of stopping on 95.5 MHz it will skip up to 95.6 MHz, and I either have to seek up and down several times to get it to stop on 95.5 like it should, or I can just give up and manually tune in 95.5 MHz. In wide bandwidth mode it doesn't have this problem, but I like to keep it in narrow mode to allow reception of weaker adjacent-channel signals (at least when they aren't drowned out by IBOC hash!).
<P ID="signature">______________
It's a common mistake to not use punctuation in its proper form.
<a target="_blank" href=http://www.cgl.uwaterloo.ca/~csk/its.html>Be kind to your friend, the apostrophe.</a></P>
 
Re: 2 reasons i don't like HD-DISPUTE SOLVED!

I agree with your findings westlife, and especially like your very descriptive "swarm of bees" analogy.
Here in Northeast Philly, on any analog tuned FM radio, I can plainly hear the digital jamming bees on both sides of each FM HD station and not on non-HD stations. I do not hear it on whole channel digital step tuned analog radios, probably because I can hear the digital noise by center tuning the noise on the analog tuned radio directly on the digital interference. On the step tuned radio the interference shows up as slightly off frequency noise, which is apparently rejected by the FM detector. That dosn't mean the noise is not there, only that the radio FM detector rejects it for what it is, adjacent channel noise.
I think we have also solved the long running discussion from someone who had a tuner stopping on the even as well as odd decimal FM frequencies. His radio was probably simultaneously able to tune European even FM decimal stations at the same time as North american odd decimals. For example, when scanning, his radio stopped on .1, .2, .3, .4 etc. so he could clearly hear the digital HD interference on the even decimal frequencies!
This proves the interference is definately still there with .1, .3, .5, digital step tuned radios, but the FM detector properly identifies and rejects the digital buzz as useless noise, because it is slightly off channel.

> > If you have the ability, can you e-mail me a sound file of
>
> > the FM hash? I'd be interested in hearing it! I haven't
> > experienced that at all out here.
>
> It mostly sounds like poor reception; I've scanned the dial
> myself in Trenton, and what was formerly a clear stereo
> signal from an NYC station gets turned into a hissy mono
> signal when the IBOC hash from a neighboring Philly signal
> is trying to drown it out. Previous generations of FM IBOC,
> as tested on NYC's 102.7 WNEW in the late '90s, had a
> distinct "buzzing" sound to the sidebands, but now it mostly
> sounds like FM's ubiquitous white-noise static hiss, except
> with a slight "swarm of bees" type of sound to it.
>
> BTW, I've also noticed that when I set my Denon TU-680NAB
> tuner to narrow bandwidth mode on FM, its seek tuning stops
> on the IBOC sidebands of strong signals... in fact it often
> will stop on the IBOC sidebands, and not on the IBOC
> station's main-channel signal itself. For example, if I try
> to seek upwards to 95.5 WPLJ, it will often stop on 95.4
> MHz, and then if I hit the upwards seek button again,
> instead of stopping on 95.5 MHz it will skip up to 95.6 MHz,
> and I either have to seek up and down several times to get
> it to stop on 95.5 like it should, or I can just give up and
> manually tune in 95.5 MHz. In wide bandwidth mode it
> doesn't have this problem, but I like to keep it in narrow
> mode to allow reception of weaker adjacent-channel signals
> (at least when they aren't drowned out by IBOC hash!).
>
 
Back to square one.....

> I agree with your findings westlife, and especially like
> your very descriptive "swarm of bees" analogy.
> Here in Northeast Philly, on any analog tuned FM radio, I
> can plainly hear the digital jamming bees on both sides of
> each FM HD station and not on non-HD stations. I do not hear
> it on whole channel digital step tuned analog radios,
> probably because I can hear the digital noise by center
> tuning the noise on the analog tuned radio directly on the
> digital interference. On the step tuned radio the
> interference shows up as slightly off frequency noise, which
> is apparently rejected by the FM detector. That dosn't mean
> the noise is not there, only that the radio FM detector
> rejects it for what it is, adjacent channel noise.
> I think we have also solved the long running discussion from
> someone who had a tuner stopping on the even as well as odd
> decimal FM frequencies. His radio was probably
> simultaneously able to tune European even FM decimal
> stations at the same time as North american odd decimals.
> For example, when scanning, his radio stopped on .1, .2, .3,
> .4 etc. so he could clearly hear the digital HD interference
> on the even decimal frequencies!
> This proves the interference is definately still there with
> .1, .3, .5, digital step tuned radios, but the FM detector
> properly identifies and rejects the digital buzz as useless
> noise, because it is slightly off channel.
>

No it proves that HIS RECEIVER was stopping on adjacent channels. Thats it!

And I bet he could hear the analog splash on those channels as well.
 
The question I have is...

(let me just preceide this with an apology to my friends who are DX fans, I am not trying to totally knock you).

but the question I have is, who cares if your signal IS causing 1st adjacent noise in your market?
If you owned 99.9 in market A, would you even WANT someone listening to 99.7 in market B? would it even be your concern? I think not.

Why would you, as a radio station owner, even care about an out of market signal? I sure as hell wouldn't. (Aside from the normal ways you do , which is directional antennas, arrays, and spacing, the LEGAL concerns you need to have for an adjacent market).

So aside from the loss of some people with poor selectivity radios to DX, I don't see the big issue here about the sideband noise.
 
Re: The question I have is...

> (let me just preceide this with an apology to my friends who
> are DX fans, I am not trying to totally knock you).
>
> but the question I have is, who cares if your signal IS
> causing 1st adjacent noise in your market?
> If you owned 99.9 in market A, would you even WANT someone
> listening to 99.7 in market B? would it even be your
> concern? I think not.
>
> Why would you, as a radio station owner, even care about an
> out of market signal? I sure as hell wouldn't. (Aside from
> the normal ways you do , which is directional antennas,
> arrays, and spacing, the LEGAL concerns you need to have for
> an adjacent market).
>
> So aside from the loss of some people with poor selectivity
> radios to DX, I don't see the big issue here about the
> sideband noise.
>

Thank you.

Also different receiver react in different ways to signals. Especially if there is mutlipath or a mixing of signals.

IMHO the FCC has set up the frequency allocations so that you dont (**TYPICALLY**) have adjacents close to each other. If you are trying to receive a station outside of the protected contour you are out of luck. I dont like it any more than the next person. When I have a low power FM moving inot my adjacent and very close to my protected are, there is nothing I can do. The rules are the rules. The concern should be with the FCC rules that are in place.
 
Re: The question I have is...

> IMHO the FCC has set up the frequency allocations so that
> you dont (**TYPICALLY**) have adjacents close to each other.

One of the more famous exceptions is 103.3 WPRB in Princeton, NJ and 103.5 WKTU in New York City -- two full-power Class B stations on adjacent channels, only about 40 miles apart from each other.<P ID="signature">______________
It's a common mistake to not use punctuation in its proper form.
<a target="_blank" href=http://www.cgl.uwaterloo.ca/~csk/its.html>Be kind to your friend, the apostrophe.</a></P>
 
Re: The question I have is...

> > IMHO the FCC has set up the frequency allocations so that
> > you dont (**TYPICALLY**) have adjacents close to each
> other.
>
> One of the more famous exceptions is 103.3 WPRB in
> Princeton, NJ and 103.5 WKTU in New York City -- two
> full-power Class B stations on adjacent channels, only about
> 40 miles apart from each other.
>


Chicago has 97.1 and 96.9 both owned by the same company (about 40 miles apart as well). They are both running HD and I have not seen any troubles with either.
 
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