If he didn't consistently hammer everyone and everything, and instead interviewed people he claims to admire, like Henry Lee or Phil Matier, etc. he'd probably have an audience.
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2024 Format Change Predictions
- Thread starter HenryOchs
- Start date
Keep in mind that Family Radio isn't looking to sell, and they're not looking to change their format to something more commercial.
Luckoff would have better luck approaching Cumulus offering to buy 810. They're in sell mode.
This sounds like Randy Michaels. We know what happened to him.
I wouldn't take any of this talk too seriously. It's been going on for years. We all know what talks versus what walks.
More than most people, I give Cumulus some credit for trying to drag KGO into modern times, first with the "all news some of the time format", which wasn't all bad, and then having what had been a secondary line-up of talk hosts being brought into the front ranks. Economics and Cumulus' own precarious financial situation just couldn't be overcome...with Cumulus unable to devote the necessary time and resources to build an audience, and sports betting was a too-tempting exit ramp...even if sports betting itself is still illegal in California.
The only remote possibility for KGO to be brought back would be for some billionaire who's determined to become a millionaire to buy it (or KSFO) to promote their views. The economic stratification of the Bay Area being what it is, programming on such a station is likely to have a libertarian bent, which isn't precisely congruent with a conservative orientation. There are common features to both, but there are differences, too. But I say "remote" because the kinds of people with the Bay Area with that kind of money wouldn't be fooling around with radio...especially not AM radio.
As for Randy Michaels, his time has come and passed. He should have quit while he was ahead.
It would be interesting to see what the demographics are of the various listener-supported membership bases: KQED, KALW, KPFA. I suspect they are quite different.
The Bay Area's conservative talk choices basically are: KSFO and KTRB. Maybe a little bit of KDOW, but that station seems to focus more on brokered financial shows.
But for reasons I've described in another post, it's more likely that you will grow a sixth toe on each foot than there would be a revival of KGO.
It's a lost cause. AM in general is a lost cause. (If it wasn't, there wouldn't be a KNBR simulcast, or a KCBS one, or for that matter, a KNX one in L.A. or WINS in NYC.) Nobody who isn't stupid rich and who wants to become a political player at whatever the cost to their own net worth (e.g., Mr. Catsimaditis buying and operating 77 WABC in NY) is going to drop a hot nickel on any AM these days, even a "prime" property (relatively speaking) like KGO.
I wholeheartedly agree with that last statement!
Would KRBQ tweak there playlist?
Again, this is just Rich Lieberman pretending to be connected and to know stuff. He's had Jim Gabbert getting back into the business to resurrect both KFRC and KGO multiple times over the last decade. Never happened because it was Lieberman's fantasy and nothing more.
Not ever having been to San Francisco, I have read here that 810 has a superb signal that reaches a lot of desirable geography. For a long time KCBS and KNBR got decent ratings with AM only. For younger audiences is the problem with AM really the "image" of AM? If there were a way to promote a something new on AM as really just an extension of the phone/internet App, would that give them a fighting chance? And again, not ever having been to San Francisco, is there anything like a "New Talk" type format or regular extended segment? When I have brought the subject up before, often people are able to chime in with examples being done elsewhere (example - The Men's Room in Seattle) with varying degrees of success.
I asked elsewhere about what kind of earnings could KGO be getting with a .2 6+ number (I know that is not a business useful chart) I tried to contrast that with Buffalo's WECK with a 4.8 playing oldies - which station is earning more?
The problem is it's not "something new." It's the same old thing. Even having an FM simulcast doesn't really solve the problem, especially in San Francisco, where traditional radio usage is lower than some other major markets.
They're not selling advertising in the traditional sense. They're airing basically a brokered format.
KCBS felt the need for an FM simulcast beginning in 2008---15 years ago.
KNBR did well in years when the San Francisco Giants did well---they carried the games.
I don't know if it's so much the "image" as the superior audio quality of FM and the lack of any consistent habitual AM listening in their lifetimes.
And let's define "younger" while we're at it.
I'll be 68 in three months. I started listening to FM stations when I was 12. If a format was available on FM, all things being equal (i.e., it didn't suck in comparison to a station with the same format on AM), I'd choose the FM.
It's been 45 years since FM began causing huge problems for AM music stations nationwide.
In 1982, 41 years ago, most AM top 40 stations finally surrendered to by then dominant FM competitors. Adult Contemporary stations on AM pretty much ran up the white flag by 1988---35 years ago.
So the people that spoken word radio stations aim for---35 and up---largely don't have a history of listening to anything on AM. Maybe news, maybe sports.
But given that most people spread their listening around five or six radio stations---even those who do listen to an AM station likely listen to several other FMs. It's now in an AM station's best interest to have a presence on that FM band---to essentially be where the "ear traffic" (as opposed to "foot traffic") is.
And to that point, here's a post I did when KGO flipped to Sports Betting last year---that uses the analogy of a shopping mall to show the decline of AM over time in San Francisco:
If there was a type of video programming that was only available on VHS tape, would you go back to VHS just for that?
KGO's billing is not tied to ratings---the sports betting programs are buying the time.
Looking at WECK's website, they simulcast on three different FM frequencies, so that 4.8 is single-line reporting that includes people listening to them on FM.
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It is, as Big A suggests, a brokered format. But what are the earnings? Could a Mr. Catsimatidis of San Fransisco take the thing off of Cumulus' hands and do something better (younger - in my book, under 40) with it with a bit of investment? I have often thought that the brokered junk that is common on talk radio across the country on weekends is just done because it is cheap and easy to do. More money might be available with more imaginative programs, but that would take money and time for development (i.e. work).
Regarding the VHS / AM comparison - that's just it - there is no need for a VHS or AM radio (or really a DVD player or FM radio) Any movie I would want to watch would be available on demand on the internet. Any radio station comes though crystal clear over the wire. The broadcast station is just there to give a local address, and free/easy availability in the car.
KGO was available at the exact same time as WABC, after the bankruptcy. The people who have that kind of money (and there are lots of them in SF) are not interested in buying AM stations. They could also buy KABC or WFAS or even WLS and so far, no takers.
Maybe you don't know this, but anyone can start a radio station on the internet for minimal investment and no regulations. The last part makes it very enticing. A lot of people in SF who could afford radio stations made their fortunes in technology companies like Apple and Twitter. They know how to start radio stations without towers or transmitters. That's where you can find "imaginative programs." No regulation and you get to OWN the station, not just license it from the government.
Once again---people under 40 have no relationship with AM radio. It's a non-entity to them. It doesn't matter what you put on 810, you're not going to get that audience.
Which is why Cumulus has found a format that isn't dependent on ratings or demographics, with extremely low expense. As much as KGO with an 0.2 seems like a waste, it's probably more profitable now than it has been at any time in the last 15 years.
I think the problem there is that the universe of the internet is TOO big, and internet stations get lost amongst a million others. The internet station also has a problem of attracting advertisers, so it becomes a hobby project. An internet station that would have a local address on the radio dial is a different thing. I read that traditional media is not regarded as sexy, and that could be the reason that no one is buying.
At one time, AM radio was new technology. That was over 100 years ago. It basically replaced the telegraph. It was the ONLY place one could hear music. But all that ended 50 years ago. Sexy has nothing to do with it. People started transferring from AM to FM in the 70s. Entire generations have grown up without that experience. Plus they know of newer and better ways to get the same content. As for advertisers, the folks at TuneIn don't seem to have a problem getting advertisers. They run a global platform, and have signed a lot of exclusive shows and sponsors. Apple Radio is doing the same thing. If you're already part of Apple Music, you get their curated radio stations. Apple is a $trillion company. They are the RCA or Westinghouse of today. They don't need to buy towers or transmitters to reach an audience.
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Are you saying that I will get a slice of the action for spinning oldies in my basement? I think maybe TuneIn gets money from advertisers for providing a platform, but whatever the content provider gets is what they can entice an advertiser to run in between the records. I tried going to Tunein before sending this, and there are a bunch of commercial free "broadcasts." Nathalie Cox on Tennessee's Big 615 is playing music courtesy of Tractor Supply. How much is Tractor Supply paying Nathalie Cox? KNBR is there too, and I bet the same advertisers that are on 680 are on the internet stream, or similar ones if union rules don't allow streamed advertising. KNBR doesn't get much, if anything for being on TuneIn, I wouldn't bet. In fact, do they need to pay to be on that streaming service?
The way it's been explained to me, Tractor Supply bought a title sponsorship, so they're not buying :30 spots. So instead of 14-16 minutes of commercials an hour, Tractor Supply gets brand association. How much are they paying? Probably a lot. The positive is you don't have 14-16 minutes of spots an hour. No Nielsen ratings. It's a very different model. Natalie Cox works for TheBig615, and they get paid by TuneIn.
KNBR's advertisers are airing there, plus there are TuneIn advertisers. I think TuneIn gets a pre-roll, and sometimes they will interrupt the station feed with their own spots.
No. As I said, TuneIn runs their own spots. Cumulus doesn't own a streaming service (Audacy and iHeart do), so they need platforms such as TuneIn to reach people on the internet. Cumulus has a similar trade deal with iHeart.
I listened to one hour of Big615, and indeed there were NO commercial breaks. Nathalie Cox is a British actress who is serving as the DJ, but she only pops in 4 or 5 times to maybe mention Tractor Supply. She made an inquiry to listeners as to "what are you doing for Christmas - let me know on Social." If this is the new face of Music Radio, it completely turns the industry as we have known it on its head. I read that radio has lost 10% of its audience over the last dozen years, and I bet this is where they have gone, especially the younger demos. As much as 'people under 40 have no relationship with AM radio' If this is the brave new world TuneIn, I-Heart or Audacy giving the store away with Big 615 and others like it will ensure that the under 30's will have no relationship with terrestrial radio at all. Although there may be several twists left in the queue, the existing music FM's are joining the line of Big Band stations to off the air status. Earlier in this thread people were kidding around with Country coming back to SF. With the Big615 commercial free option it would be hard to build an audience even if the demo was there to support it. FM sound trumps AM mono, but commercial free trumps 6 minute FM commercial breaks.
But I am still lost as to where anybody makes money. Unless this is a commercial free Christmas special, and there was no mention that it was, how does TuneIn make any money? At least with Alexa, I have to at least buy the device from Amazon. Tractor Supply will pay ' a lot ' for the privilege of sponsoring Big615? There was no mention of what they sell, or what kind of Christmas deals they've got, no jingle or anything other than an occasional mention by Nathalie. The internet might give Big615 a count of how many people are tuned in, but maybe not too much about the demographics of who is listening. What in the name of WSM is going on?
I am more convinced that the future of broadcast radio will be spoken word. Content that is created and first-run over the air.
The channel you listened to has the Tractor Supply sponsorship. This channel has only been on the air for a few months. They may add more commercials at some point. But the main thing is that TuneIn has thousands of radio stations all streaming worldwide. There are no FCC ownership limits that restrict how many stations they can own. Need more inventory? Start a new station.
Correct, they don't sell demographics, they sell tonnage. Some advertisers are satisfied with that.
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