30 Brands of HD radio at CES

[clouseau]

We didn't hear even hear the BS reports of no HD at CES like last time.
From Radio World...

"In its largest booth ever at a Consumer Electronics Show, iBiquity Digital is showcasing approximately 30 brands of radios.

Nearly 100 models are pirced at around $80, nearly double the amount available last January, President/CEO Bob Struble tells Radio World at the convention."

More details of the apocolypse here.

http://radioworld.com/article/72574

Now remember, anti-guys... If you want people to take you seriously, try to not contradict each other.

Clouseau

 

[Seattleradiodude]

Now remember, anti-guys... If you want people to take you seriously, try to not contradict each other.

Clouseau

Mmm, Well Put Inspector!!!

 

[KB1OKL]

Nearly 100 models are pirced at around $80, nearly double the amount available last January, President/CEO Bob Struble tells Radio World at the convention."


Clouseau

You mean pierced at around 80.00 Inspector? Like as in using them for target practice? ;D

 

[wgliradio]

I'll make this simple

In market #1. Over the last month we had one station down because the Harris exciter went to heaven. This was a 4 day event when the station was not in HD.

Also in market #1, we had an off air with one of our FM's for 6 hours.

Can you guess how many calls? If the number is greater than 0, you have guessed too many

Nobody cares. And with the economic dowturn, there will be little to no further investment in content or hardware on the broadcasting or consumer side for at least the next year or so. This as I listen to wlng.com on my cell phone.

 

[vsa]

I'll make this simple

In market #1. Over the last month we had one station down because the Harris exciter went to heaven. This was a 4 day event when the station was not in HD.

Also in market #1, we had an off air with one of our FM's for 6 hours.

Can you guess how many calls? If the number is greater than 0, you have guessed too many

Nobody cares. And with the economic dowturn, there will be little to no further investment in content or hardware on the broadcasting or consumer side for at least the next year or so. This as I listen to wlng.com on my cell phone.

Ditto in market #2.

N - O - B - O - D - Y C - A - R - E - S !!!

Struble fiddles while Rome burns.

http://insidemusicmedia.blogspot.com/2009/01/survival-plan-for-radio.html

 

[Savage]

Clouseau - is it even possible for you to post a single freakin' thing here any more without resorting to attacking those with whom you disagree?

How about just posting news of the CES and skip all the personal stuff? It's tiresome. And infantile.

 

[clouseau]

Clouseau - is it even possible for you to post a single freakin' thing here any more without resorting to attacking those with whom you disagree? How about just posting news of the CES and skip all the personal stuff? It's tiresome. And infantile.

Let me say... I agree with you. A lot of the stuff here is tiresome and infantile. I could compare the maturity between "Be sure you don't contradict yourself" and "Booobie", "Kevy", "Strubull" etc..., but I think that would be pointless. Clearly, as we look at the end of our leg, the shoe is on the other foot. Besides, I'm fairly certian both points have been made.

Again I say, I agree with you. Obviously we "DO" have a little too much "humor".

Note to self... "Be less infantile"
Another note to self - "Hope for the same."

Clouseau

 

[Carmine5]

We didn't hear even hear the BS reports of no HD at CES like last time.
From Radio World...

"In its largest booth ever at a Consumer Electronics Show, iBiquity Digital is showcasing approximately 30 brands of radios.

Hmm, perhaps. But what undoubtedly caused the biggest stir at the CES show were the many internet connectivity devices being displayed, particularly the Blauplunkt miRoamer receiver which brings (among other things) web radio to the car.

Statements like: “DAB is dead. It’s about to be crushed by Internet radio” from U.K.s Electric Pig site
http://www.electricpig.co.uk/2009/01/07/blaupunkt-shows-off-worlds-first-internet-car-radio/

and

"As satellite radio dies a slow, painful death, Internet radio should be poised to jump in" from dvice.com (which named the Blauplunkt receiver one of the 10 best products of the show) were typical from the press. http://dvice.com/archives/2009/01/the_8_best_prod.php

In fact, the NYT summed it up this way, “If there was one overarching theme from the Consumer Electronics Show here last week, it was that absolutely every device in our lives is becoming a computer connected to the Internet.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/12/technology/personaltech/12cesexec.html?_r=2

Unfortunately (for some here), I have yet to read any similar words of excitement for HD Radio other than those from iBiquity's press room.

C5

 

[Chuck]

Has anyone ever been to a CES Show? I have. There are usually about 2500 to 3000 manufacturers represented. Admittedly, not all of them make radios, but the amount of electronic products shown is staggering. There is no way you can see it all, even if you walk the floors for the entire time the show is open.

The point being that 30 manufacturers showing 100 or so radios is a drop in the bucket when it comes to consumer electronics. It certainly is an improvement over last year, but in the grand scheme of things, it is no big deal. People are not rushing out to buy these things. The new variable of uncertain financial times has now loomed its ugly head. There are too many other cool new products and too little money to pay for them. If this technology had been at its current point ten years ago, I think the scenario might be different. At best for HD supporters, it is going to be a slow battle. At worst, it may be too little, too late.

 

[Savage]

Good points, Chuck, and thanks for the peek inside a CES show. I really had no idea.

It also has to be borne in mind that XX number of manufacturers now offering xxx number of individual HD-capable radios, no matter how big an improvement those "X" numbers may represent over previous years, misses a vitally important point:

The overarching issue is not how many new HD devices there are, it's how likely they are to supplant existing technology. We've all seen the varying estimates that there are something between 600 million and a billion analog radios currently being happily used by a vast number of listeners - pick the numbers you like.

Given the overwhelming presence of existing radio receiver tech which is perfectly acceptable to untold millions of listeners, IMO that represents an incredible amount of inertia which HD would have to overcome if it were ever to become entrenched as a universally-accepted standard.

Add to that the endless parade of technical problems - again, my opinion is that -10dBc digital isn't going to improve things that much(*) and I think HD's in big trouble.

(*) My nearby colleague Craig Fox made an excellent remark in the current digital-injection FCC comments to the effect that using brute-force increases in transmitting power represents a technical copout, and one which is likely to be largely self-defeating for HD promoters. He correctly suggests that a more valid approach would be to mandate better sensitivity for HD-capable receivers. Instead a digital power hike is being pushed with typical iBiquity/Alliance myopia which will ratchet up self and adjacent channel interference, producing the undesired consequence of further slowing use of HD.

 

[Chuck]

Yes, the latest issue (Jan 1, 2009) of Radio World arrived today. Craig's letter was among the many that I think sum this whole thing up. The real clincher is on Page One. The Headline says: "Surprise: Cap-Ex Will Be Taut in 2009."

The bottom line is nobody has the money to dump into expanding their HD infrastructure (or any thing else, for that matter). I know most stations in my area are down about 20-25% for the last year. Are they in long-term trouble? I don't think so, but it makes dumping a few hundred grand into a HD upgrade look very unattractive.

 

[clouseau]

I'll echo Savage's comments about the CES show. And again I would point out that HD radio is not selling the "Latest and Greatest" but rather an evolution to a digital end... But that said...

What Savage writes next is interesting. And I don't demean it. but...

(*) My nearby colleague Craig Fox made an excellent remark in the current digital-injection FCC comments to the effect that using brute-force increases in transmitting power represents a technical copout, and one which is likely to be largely self-defeating for HD promoters. He correctly suggests that a more valid approach would be to mandate better sensitivity for HD-capable receivers.

I agree. However, Savage, I would wonder how you, or any other station owner, would react to the prospects of a 10X authorization for your analog station? (That's 200,000 Daytime watts for WYSL.) I know I would like a 10X boost on my facilities. "GUILTY AS CHARGED". I'm a spectrum hogging capitalist big money (less the cash) group owner. 2 makes a group, right?

Instead a digital power hike is being pushed with typical iBiquity/Alliance myopia which will ratchet up self and adjacent channel interference, producing the undesired consequence of further slowing use of HD.

In the spirit of "Lack of infantileism" I will ask (Rhetorically) if you have heard any of the test stations with the higher power? And have you heard or actually looked at whether it will self interfere?Or bother it's neighbors? I'm not trying to "Attack". But is this "They don't care about 'Non-Viable'" of is this based in experience or data?

Have you personally done or seen any of the calculations with regards to FM interference and 10% 1st adjacent? It's not a trick question, I'm just asking. I have not.

You got me to thinking... I'll try and run a few test scenarios based on the allocation system we have now. I promise I'll post the true results. (And "I" may not like them.)

If you have a scenario you'd like pursued, send it over. I'll run the numbers. We'll need zip code and the two stations causing the problem.

Toss one out. You might be surprised how well if fits your view. Or not...

Clouseau

 

[Savage]

Nope. Haven't heard any members of the -10dBc club; none exist around here to my knowledge. Nor have I done any calculations; I don't think that's necessary since NPR and others have already done this. But common sense dictates: since radio is a "system" consisting of a transmitter on one end and a receiver on the other, both necessary to complete the process of radio transmission, if increased adjacent-channel emissions are problematic that it would be in HD's best interests to press for improved receivers. It would accomplish their objectives faster and generate less controversy - which is the last thing HD Radio needs at this point.

Thanks for the invitation about RF war games. Sure, we've talked about this one here before, so how about 102.7 (A) in Webster vs. 102.5 (C) Buffalo? Let's run it up the flagpole. Zippers are 14580 and 14209 respectively.

Would I like 200,000 watts?? Absolutely. And I'm about to drop a bomb here. Not only would I build it - I WOULD INSTALL IBOC. Yep....that's right. Bob "HD Hater" Savage WOULD ABSOLUTELY crank up HD Radio.

As long as I could use it at night. And aim it right at Boston.....

Seriously, though, you get to a point where the "arms race" of ever-increasing carrier powers becomes counterproductive. We discussed on this board how all the Class D/"IV" night hikes from 250w to 1kw produced almost zero positive results for most of the graveyarders since it only made their already-terrible interference levels that much worse.

200kw for WYSL? In the summer, when we're on day pattern for 15 or 16 hours, our power bill is already between $2K and $3K monthly (thanks, New York State, for not only the highest taxes in the USA but also some of the highest utility costs.) Would I like to increase that to $20,000 a month? Ummm......my 5 mv/m already makes it to the Lake Ontario shore. So an $18,000 fish fry sounds just a tad unnecessary. Unless I want to modulate the flames on arc-welders in Rochester autobody shops.

 

[Play Freebird]

You got me to thinking... I'll try and run a few test scenarios based on the allocation system we have now. I promise I'll post the true results. (And "I" may not like them.)

I'm sure you realize the current FM allocation system allows short-spaced first-adjacent nondirectional stations, particularly in the Northeast Corridor. These are the situations we should be most concerned about.

Review the application lists in CDBS and you'll find that several of these stations (licensed to members of the "Joint Parties") were granted experimental authorizations in 2007/08, apparently to test higher digital power -- but with the exception of WKCI, we haven't seen the results of those tests in iBiquity's public filings -- perhaps because the results were not satisfactory.

 

[audioguy]

200kw for WYSL? In the summer, when we're on day pattern for 15 or 16 hours, our power bill is already between $2K and $3K monthly (thanks, New York State, for not only the highest taxes in the USA but also some of the highest utility costs.) Would I like to increase that to $20,000 a month? Ummm......my 5 mv/m already makes it to the Lake Ontario shore. So an $18,000 fish fry sounds just a tad unnecessary. Unless I want to modulate the flames on arc-welders in Rochester autobody shops.

With 200kW, you could probably be heard up at Moose Factory on James Bay! That would be cool, especially at this time of the year.

Do you have any music programming on that high class Ancient Modulation rig of yours? I may have to try and give a listen.

 

[Savage]

Not as a general rule, audioguy - but if you're listening some weekend and you let me know, I just might clap on my 1967 Brush-Clevites, crank up the reverb and spin a few for you!

 

[dumber than a box of hair]

Barry Mishkind (who runs Radio Guide and a bunch of remailers) sent out an e-mail today, after attending the CES.

Cliff's Notes:

Interest in Internet radios: Very high.
Interest in HD radio: Virtually non-existent ("those manning the booths might as well have been talking to themselves").

FWIW.

 

[KB1OKL]

Barry Mishkind (who runs Radio Guide and a bunch of remailers) sent out an e-mail today, after attending the CES.

Cliff's Notes:

Interest in Internet radios: Very high.
Interest in HD radio: Virtually non-existent ("those manning the booths might as well have been talking to themselves").

FWIW.

Yeah I saw that, what a surprise. I thought the college kids with fluorescent orange jump suits working for iniquity looked quite stylish though.

 

[arnoldevns]

Let me just be as clear as I can here: just because something is at CES does not mean it's going to be a huge hit in retail stores.
I got the press release from some PR firm about all the HD radio offerings at CES. That did not translate into discussion of these products in any of the coverage of CES that I saw.

I keep looking for HD radios at my local electronic retailers. A year or so ago there were a few displays touting HD radio. Six months later they got pushed from the front of the radio aisle to the back. Now there are no displays about HD radio and just a few sets for sale in a few stores.

I would love it if HD radio was a great thing that would help bring listeners to this medium. Unfortunately, I think it is a technology that is too unreliable and it's implimentation has been poorly executed. On the AM side, it needs to come to an end to improve the sound quality of the analog signals.

 

[Chuck]

Let me just be as clear as I can here: just because something is at CES does not mean it's going to be a huge hit in retail stores.

That is absolutely correct. Like most trade shows, CES is a test market to see what products should be brought to market and which ones shouldn't. Products that create a lot of "buzz" are considered good investments. Those products that create yawns never see the light of day. A lot of what is shown will never make it to store shelves.

If you have any questions, watch Jay Leno's "Sold or Not Sold" segment. You may have to stay up after your bedtime, but you will discover that not every new product has sales success. In fact, most never get that far.