3WZ and the value of consistency

[shilton]

Well I guess we will see reality on 8/1 then! G101 is and will be a CHR, and I think with the fall of Hot 107.9 and Hot 103 it is obvious this market does not want urban or rhythmic during the day.

Do I want to hear Chamillionare rappin about riding dirty at 8am?...No actually I don't, and I am pretty sure that the other "40,000 townies" don't either or at least 75% of them don't.

We leaned more adult oriented during the day for the people at work who don't want the above scenario playing out in there office.

I have to go now I have this gut feeling that Bump Bump Bump form B2k might become a hit finally after all these years ;D

I don't wannt turn this into a battle between us, but I think its important here to clarify one key issue. If memory serves, Hot 107.9 had nice numbers. I am sure that a mutual friend, Grooves could back this up with fact if you want to ask him. Hot bypassed the Beaver rather repidly. Its also important to bear in mind that Hot 107.9 didn't really "fall", but was dismantled in the whole market shuffle so Hot 103 could be born (combining 2 CHR's into 1). Hot 103 likewise had good numbers but was sacrificed to make way for the Frog. Qwk was moved to a stronger frequency and the Frog took over 98.7. If you check out both station's numbers seems to me that plenty of people had no problem listening to their programming.

But at least we agree on one thing. Ultimately the listeners will decide which approach they prefer. perhaps there will be room for 2, perhaps one will dominate and one will fall? Who knows. But I stand by my comment that I really don't think a market with 40,000 people can sustain 2 CHR's forever. I'd be curious to hear others chime in to comment on that opinion.

 

[ameyer]

Let me ask you this? What did the advertising books look like for both Hot 107.9 and Hot 103? If either of the 2 stations were making money they would not have been dismantled. The point is the numbers were there but those are the 12+ numbers, so what did the other demos look like...Were there enough 18-54 people listening to make any money on those stations? We already know the answer is no, otherwise the stations would still be on the air. I think the fact that Forever got rid of it is a good sign it wasn't working.

 

[shilton]

Let me ask you this? What did the advertising books look like for both Hot 107.9 and Hot 103? If either of the 2 stations were making money they would not have been dismantled. The point is the numbers were there but those are the 12+ numbers, so what did the other demos look like...Were there enough 18-54 people listening to make any money on those stations? We already know the answer is no, otherwise the stations would still be on the air. I think the fact that Forever got rid of it is a good sign it wasn't working.

AJ...to be frank, I'd prefer to see this topic get back on track and see people discussing 3-WZ and their stronghold on a very desirable demo. We could battle this back and forth for an eternity and we will never see eye to eye on it which brings us to why you are the man in charge of your station and why I decided to go off on my own. Only time will tell what's right and what's wrong. But if the ad rates I have seen floating around are any indication, doesn't seem like too many in this market are setting the world on fire at the moment if we are talking ad dollars. Besides, we can't even talk ratings since neither of our stations subscribe to the book right? (wink wink)

Let's just agree to disagree and be done with it. You know I have a high regard for your on-air abilities and I know you are doing what you feel passionate about, as am I. We just happen to be doing it in a manner that makes us direct competitors.

 

[tsimpson]

Stevo, you wrote:

"But at least we agree on one thing. Ultimately the listeners will decide which approach they prefer. perhaps there will be room for 2, perhaps one will dominate and one will fall? Who knows. But I stand by my comment that I really don't think a market with 40,000 people can sustain 2 CHR's forever. I'd be curious to hear others chime in to comment on that opinion."

I assume that you are bowing out then and will advise your higher ups that you will switch formats right away. We will keep up the good work from here on out, might I suggest JACK since you are giving up on CHR?

Love ya Stevo!

 

[shilton]

Stevo, you wrote:

"But at least we agree on one thing. Ultimately the listeners will decide which approach they prefer. perhaps there will be room for 2, perhaps one will dominate and one will fall? Who knows. But I stand by my comment that I really don't think a market with 40,000 people can sustain 2 CHR's forever. I'd be curious to hear others chime in to comment on that opinion."

I assume that you are bowing out then and will advise your higher ups that you will switch formats right away. We will keep up the good work from here on out, might I suggest JACK since you are giving up on CHR?

Love ya Stevo!

Ted, about the only thing I am tempted to bow out of these days is this forum. Seems no one can talk about anything these days besides sling mud back and forth like a bunch of little kids. I sure don't want to get into a my dad can beat up your dad thing. Obviously you think you are doing the right thing.....Obviously so do I which brought us to part our ways and I thought we parted on good terms, but I guess I may have misunderstood that fact. In any case, I like AJ's idea of starting a new post. let's hear from folks not affiliated with either station and let them give their 2 cents if they want to. But let's make one thing clear...I am not conceding anything. My ride at the old "B" was a good one and I am hoping that my ride here at the new "B" is good to me as well and I am in it for the long haul (whatever that happens to be)

 

[mock3]

let's hear from folks not affiliated with either station and let them give their 2 cents if they want to.

I don't think most people care at all about this. CHR is a dying format. Kids have so many other choices for music. They don't need the radio. For that reason, we are seeing so many stations flipping to gold leaning formats (adult hits, classic dance/movin, some form of ac, classic hits, etc.).

The CHR stations that do exist seem to be cutting the rap and playing more emo, which I hate almost as much as rap (if that is possible). All the kids I am coming across are really into that emo stuff.

And obviously most people on this board don't listen to or care about CHR because most of the posts on this thread are from the same 2 people. (Perhaps that is because few kids view the board.) Maybe you two should just email each other back and forth. I don't see the point of 2 people who know each other so well going at it on here. Skip the board and do it directly. It will help clean up this place.

That said, I will admit my post is biased as I have never enjoyed CHR/Top 40 radio. I still listen to Smooth Jazz and Lite Rock most of the time.

 

[tsimpson]

With respect I would like to point out that:

Kids might like tecky gadgets. CHR is not a kid format like you suggest.

Poeple who own an Ipod dont go around throwing away all their radios, they mix listening.

CHR and HOT AC still take the lions share of the ratings in most markets depending.

I had an IPOD when I was a kid 30 years ago, it was called a Sony Walkman then. Why dont you take a look at the vastly overblown facts on Ipods. Like the actual ages of Ipod owners, time spent listening and that it is split with radio,TV, and computers.

CHR is not a kid audience like so many attempt to paint it. Its what I tried to do years ago when we were selling against it. CHR artists are mainstream, current, and popular. Our daily winners logs show mostly men and woman in their 20s and 30s.

Smooth Jazz.....well my friend that is a tiny, tiny audience that has always struggled to assure its own self worth by claiming fluency or strength with eclectic niche small audiences. The smooth jazz type would be somebody who is hard to sell to an advertiser. They are set in their ways and would not stray away from the plan they have. (you could not interest them in buying something they have not planed on buying) I tried to show a advertiser this years ago this and he liked smooth jazz and NPR so figured everybody did. I hope you can see that every format is viable.

Every bit of propaganda you here on Ipods suggests gloom and doom for CHR untill you really read it. There are very few of them out there even years into it, they are shared with radio, and we are still the way new music is introduced.

 

[Becker]

Ted, about the only thing I am tempted to bow out of these days is this forum. Seems no one can talk about anything these days besides sling mud back and forth like a bunch of little kids. I sure don't want to get into a my dad can beat up your dad thing.

Even a fish wouldn't get into trouble if it kept its mouth shut.
Korean Proverb

:-X

 

[wiseman]

I think the original point to be made on this board had to do with consistency from a business standpoint as well as consistency of sound and format.
Some radio groups don't appreciate the importance of relationships, credibility, and integrity as they market the stations. They don't get it. They never will. And they suffer the consequences.
3WZ, for all its faults, has solid management that know how to get a return on investment. So ...they get an unfair share of the revenues. It is pretty simple, and it continues day after day.

 

[Becker]

I think the original point to be made on this board had to do with consistency from a business standpoint as well as consistency of sound and format.
Some radio groups don't appreciate the importance of relationships, credibility, and integrity as they market the stations. They don't get it. They never will. And they suffer the consequences.
3WZ, for all its faults, has solid management that know how to get a return on investment. So ...they get an unfair share of the revenues. It is pretty simple, and it continues day after day.

Why is it an unfair share? We live in a capitalist society. If they know how to sell, they'll get money. If they suddenly lose that ability, they won't get anything.

 

[Snafu]

Your Walkman and an iPod have as much to do with each other as a model airplane and the Space Shuttle.

We are the way new music is introduced to the over 30 crowd. The kids you see walking across campus with the white ear buds in are NOT listening to the radio. In fact outside of their clock radios (that also play CDs) and the tuner in the Honda dad bought them they don't own a radio and don't realize that's a real problem. They get their new music off the Internet and likely have less than 75 CDs in their collection. The radio industry and the record industry don't begin to understand how grave the situation really is.

 

[ameyer]

Hey Snafu,

I want to hang out with you on campus when classes resume and count how many people we see with the white earbuds, if you can get anywhere near lets say 7 out of 10...then I will listen to what you are preaching, cause I honestly think you are wrong

 

[shilton]

Your Walkman and an iPod have as much to do with each other as a model airplane and the Space Shuttle.

We are the way new music is introduced to the over 30 crowd. The kids you see walking across campus with the white ear buds in are NOT listening to the radio. In fact outside of their clock radios (that also play CDs) and the tuner in the Honda dad bought them they don't own a radio and don't realize that's a real problem. They get their new music off the Internet and likely have less than 75 CDs in their collection. The radio industry and the record industry don't begin to understand how grave the situation really is.

Snafu...internet radio is being regulated and hit with fees to death. Unless they start introducing "commercials" of some sort to generate revenue or charge subscription fees, its in for a bumpy ride. As for clock radios that play CD's, look at the stats the record companies are griping about...kids aren't buying cd's anymore. If anything they are going on I-Tunes and buying a track at a time, but whole cd's just aren't moving. And who can blame them? They cost less than ever to make, yet we are still trying to sell them at $15-17.00 a pop with only 2 good songs on them and the rest is "filler". Perhaps if the record labels adjusted their approach and make them more affordable for today's consumers that would not be an issue. Then there is satellite radio which is holding its own, but both XM and Surius have restated their "growth projections" a few times as of late and obviously they are trying to merge into 1 large company because as 2 seperate entities they aren't making the grade.

People are hearing new music someplace. If its not online and its not satellite radio...has to be good fashioned terrestrial radio. I really don't think that Ipods are a replacement for the radio, but rather a compliment to them. And yeah, we may not have people listening 24-7 anymore like they used to...but radio is turning them onto the songs and THEN they are putting them on their Ipods. heck ever since Walkman's and Cd's came out years ago people were predicting "the death of radio". She may be limping a little, but she's not dead yet.

 

[Becker]

Here's how a kid/teenager/college kid with disposable income finds new music:

wake up to clock radio blasting,
half-shower,
brush teeth,
walk to school bus (or toward Willard Building) while texting another kid with disposable income,
friend is texting how great the jams were on TRL the night before and did you see it,
kid texts back "no man, wha wuz on?"
(fast forward)
Kid gets off bus after school or returns to dorm,
goes up to room,
turns on computer, instant messenger (AIM, MSM and Yahoo) and Limewire.
Kid looks on Limewire for name of person or group friend texted earlier and finds 25 songs,
kid downloads all of the songs illegally,
kid loads onto iPod.
Kid gets on instant messenger to friend and says "I got em."

I have grandkids people...this is about as complicated as they get.

 

[Snafu]

I would agree with the assessment Becker. But again I point out where is radio in your day in the life? Answer is not a big part.

 

[travist102]

Sorry to beat a dead horse... but it's a world of difference on 3WZ between now and when I was there in 1998-99.

When I drove through SC last month, I was kinda surprised to hear Sean Kingston "Beautiful Girls", and thought that I would be visited via phone or directly by management if I dared to play it... let alone Alannah Myles "Black Velvet" or even Bruce Springsteen "Glory Days."

Things were quirky back then, but I understand why things were the way they were. The music mix these days is better... the library was thinner back then.

TS

 

[tsimpson]

My point about Walkman/Ipod was that both play recorded music and that goes just so far. Before you jump on the "radios dead" bandwagon come answer the phones for a day or even a contest.

Kids still know local radio. Kids are technology driven more now and have all kinds of gadgets but if you are writing the obit for radio due to Ipod and internet then stack on TV, Cable, magazines, and newspaper to the death list.

My point about the Walkman was that 20 plus years ago I had unlimited recorded music. I listened here and there to music I bought or recorded but still listened to radio.

I read a great deal about Ipod. I noticed all the talk. I have seen them. They have been around for years. I just traveled for a week all over and noted two people who had Ipods had them in their center console with the wire wrapped around them and the radio on. I asked them both why they were not listening to them and both asked if I wanted to but indicated they listen to the radio and occasionally the Ipod if they find a song that they want.

There is a reason why satellite radio cannot retain over half of the free subscribers, and the same net loss roughly with paid subscribers. Ipods are a headset and recorded music, yes to me thats a Walkman. May be a fancy Walkman that holds a whole bunch more music but come on now.

Radio not a big part of your life. I would ask you the last time you read a local newspaper? The last time you read a local magazine? The last time you noticed a local billboard? The list could go on.

 

[mock3]

I listen to radio because I have an obsession with radio.

I also have an iPod which does take the place of radio some and would a lot more if I didn't have a radio obsession.

I get news and weather online. I do turn on the radio for traffic (we talked about that before here).

But for music, the iPod is better than radio. Here is the reason. Consider that the typical radio station playlist is 200-800 songs. Most are on the lower end of that. Even some classic hits stations program less than 300 songs. If I like the format, I will probably like most of those high testing songs (until of course I listen too much and get burned out), but there are a few that I will hate or wish that I could skip over. Now I take my iPod and put 600 of my favorite tracks on it. I now have more songs than most radio stations and none of the songs I don't want to hear. I can also skip the song that I am not in the mood for. (No spots or contests makes it an even better listening experience.) Why should I let someone else pick the 300 songs for me to listen to? I can do a better job at picking what I want to hear.

All that said, like most people, the majority of my songs are singles mixed with albums tracks from my favorite artists. If radio stations were to take their 300 song playlist and spike in extra tracks that they don't normally play (each hour or so), I would tune in more frequently. A spike category keeps the smaller playlist much fresher.

The point of this post is to convey that instead of a local radio station owner being in denial about competition from iPods, he should realize they are competition to his station and program to compete. If you don't recognize that you are in competition, you will never come out on top.

I hate hate CHR/Top 40 radio, but if I wanted to listen to the Top 40-70 or however many hits, I could download those to my iPod. Expand the playlist and people will have more incentive to tune in. Add more CHR Gold into the mix. Don't add more stupid contests or morning shows. Those take away from your station. People want music and important information. Very few listeners are calling in for the contests. Most hate having to listen to the few prize pigs that do call in. If you do an on-air contest, don't play back the caller. I don't even care if you announce the winner. The better way to do the contest is through your website. That extends the brand and promotes the site, but doesn't take away from what your station is all about. Also note, an iPod doesn't offer breaking news, but neither does the automated radio station.

I'm going back to my smooth jazz now.

 

[Spackler1]

The point of this post is to convey that instead of a local radio station owner being in denial about competition from iPods, he should realize they are competition to his station and program to compete. If you don't recognize that you are in competition, you will never come out on top.

How do you program to compete with an ipod? The appeal of the mp3 player is that you get to hear only the music that you enjoy and want to hear. You can't program a radio station to do that. You say "expand the playlist", but if you expand it with a bunch of songs that somebody doesn't like, doesn't that make it worse, not better?

This is the reason the Jack-FM stations have no staying power. The novelty wears off quickly. Radio can't become an ipod, because everybody programs their mp3 player differently. That's why your Smooth Jazz station died an ugly death in State College - twice. You dig it, but put it on the radio and it doesn't work here.

A good morning show will beat "no-talk music in the morning" type shows every time. It's been proven again and again. There's a reason that Howard Stern was number one in every market he was in, and why people pay $12.99 per month to listen to Stern. Same thing with Bob & Tom in Indy, Paulsen & Krenn years ago in Pittsburgh, Jimmy & Steve, etc. A compelling or informative morning show beats music every time.

 

[mock3]

How do you program to compete with an ipod? The appeal of the mp3 player is that you get to hear only the music that you enjoy and want to hear. You can't program a radio station to do that. You say "expand the playlist", but if you expand it with a bunch of songs that somebody doesn't like, doesn't that make it worse, not better?

I do see your point, but I think the key is to have a spike category that gives the impression of an expanded playlist.

For example, the constant number 1 station in my current area (not State College, but that is beside the point) is a Classic Rock station. They play a lot of songs that most classic rock/hits stations would not play. (Some good classics from The Alan Parsons Project, Go-Gos, album tracks from Steely Dan, etc.) They play over 1000 songs, but only about 500-600 are in normal rotation. The other songs are spiked in. It's common to play a track from the "A-Z Library" about once an hour during the normal programming. This track is a surprise that keeps people listening. I would prefer more of that, but I understand that most listeners do not listen as closely or as much as I do; therefore, moderation is the key.

There are some good talk shows, but not many. More music morning shows never beat the best talk shows, but they do beat many of them. In many cases the number 1 morning station is talk, but followed by music based shows and then the remaining talk shows.