480i resolution on HDTV's (or any widescreen TV

[dave73]

I don't know if I'm posting in the right board. I have a separate issue with widescreen HDTV's showing 480i (SD) programs. Is this a problem with all TV's if any channel is setup for 480i, and it stretches out the image? While checking out some TV's at Best Buy, I had WCIU-DT 26.2 (Me TV), and MeTV had That 70's Show on, and the show was shot in 480i (SD). However, the program was stretched out, making people look fat. On WFLD Fox 32, The Simpsons was on, and that was a 480i (SD) resolution show, but the channel is setup for HD 1080i resolution, and it had sidebars, making the problem watchable. WJYS is also a 480i channel (SD), and the program was stretched out, making people look fat. This was on both a Toshiba TV, and a Samsung TV. Does anyone else experience this on their HDTV's? I might not like the idea of getting a new TV, and having to watch SD programs stretched out on channels that are setup for 480i resolution. I'd rather deal with sidebars than a stretched out show. At least on channels setup for HDTV 720p or 1080i, SD programs will have sidebars.

 

[nathannah]

Usually but only a few select exceptions (the only one I've found being KSL-TV in Salt Lake City's 4-3 weather subchannel being a rare example of 16:9 480i), all 480i and 480p channels are setup to display by default in 4:3 (in your example, MeTV is definitely a 4:3 480i channel), so by default it's in stretch and indeed it looks odd on the screen. Meanwhile the main network signals (WFLD actually transmits in 720p, but it's still HD) usually air in 720p or 1080i HD with SD programming pillarboxed, so it displays on-screen just fine without any need to tinker with options (you could, but more often than not it's better to keep the HD channels in native resolution).

You can change the options in the TV menu (or even right on the remote) to display regular 480i programming in native resolution with pillarboxing. I've gotten used to it being stretched out on my HD sets but others still set it up so programming either displays in native 16:9 or 4:3, depending on the programming resolution.

 

[KML0224]

I'll put up with letterboxing or pillarboxing, just as long as the image is displayed correctly.

 

[kenrayc]

In the case of TBS HD which streaches out non-wide screen programs automatically, the ratio button on the remote can set those programs back to 4:3, of course you got to put it back when they go to a wide screen show or everybody is to tall and skinny.
In Bakersfield there is one station that is 480i 16:9 wide screen(NOT STRETCHED), because KBFX 58 is a sub-channel to KBAK 29 and there not set up to run 2 1080i or 720p stations on the same frequency.

 

[anotherguyTN]

I tend to prefer the sidebars to the picture being stretched as well, but my wife wants it stretched on shows she watches. Also, I don't know if this makes any sense, but watching cartoons stretched doesn't seem as bad to me as with a live action show.

On a channel that is in 480i but is showing a letterboxed show I'll use the zoom setting so that the picture will fill the whole screen and still be at the right proportions. It's either that or have a picture with black bars on all 4 sides. That works pretty well in most cases, but occasionally there will be a letterboxed movie on TCM that even in the zoom setting it still has black bars on the top and bottom. My set also has a cinema setting that zooms in even further and this usually works best in that case.

 

[dave73]

In the case of TBS HD which streaches out non-wide screen programs automatically, the ratio button on the remote can set those programs back to 4:3, of course you got to put it back when they go to a wide screen show or everybody is to tall and skinny.
In Bakersfield there is one station that is 480i 16:9 wide screen(NOT STRETCHED), because KBFX 58 is a sub-channel to KBAK 29 and there not set up to run 2 1080i or 720p stations on the same frequency.

With the current digital technology, I doubt it's possible to run 2 1080i channels. WLS-TV is pushing it by running both WLS-TV (PSIP 7.1) & LiveWell HD (PSIP 7.2) in 720p each. Supposedly, WYIN-DT is running both PSIP 56.1 & 56.2 in 720p each, & 56.3 & 56.4 in 480i (though 56.2 - 56.4 are currently simulcasts of PSIP 56.1). PSIP 56.4 used to be Create, until the time WTTW took over carrying it. WTTW Prime (PSIP 11.2) is a 480i channel, but any programs taped in widescreen will air in widescreen. I will have to learn about every TV out there to figure out how to make the changes as needed. I know RCA menus the best. I however am showing interest in Vizio as my next TV.

 

[lizzyjakers]

I think it stretches on a non-wide screen programs automatically. So there should be wrong in the settings if it doesn't.

 

[Carmine5]

In the case of TBS HD which streaches out non-wide screen programs automatically, the ratio button on the remote can set those programs back to 4:3, of course you got to put it back when they go to a wide screen show or everybody is to tall and skinny.
In Bakersfield there is one station that is 480i 16:9 wide screen(NOT STRETCHED), because KBFX 58 is a sub-channel to KBAK 29 and there not set up to run 2 1080i or 720p stations on the same frequency.

With the current digital technology, I doubt it's possible to run 2 1080i channels. WLS-TV is pushing it by running both WLS-TV (PSIP 7.1) & LiveWell HD (PSIP 7.2) in 720p each. Supposedly, WYIN-DT is running both PSIP 56.1 & 56.2 in 720p each, & 56.3 & 56.4 in 480i (though 56.2 - 56.4 are currently simulcasts of PSIP 56.1). PSIP 56.4 used to be Create, until the time WTTW took over carrying it. WTTW Prime (PSIP 11.2) is a 480i channel, but any programs taped in widescreen will air in widescreen. I will have to learn about every TV out there to figure out how to make the changes as needed. I know RCA menus the best. I however am showing interest in Vizio as my next TV.

With current technology, only one 1080i signal can be broadcast. It takes up about 15 Mbps of a 19.3 Mbps allowable data bandwidth for DTV. 720p can be anywhere from 9.7 Mbps-12 Mbps and a good quality SD stream about 3-4 Mbps.

Yes, an aspect ratio flag is sent out when a station is broadcasting in wide screen. However, on HDTVs, the aspect ratio can also be user set on the remote control.

c5

 

[Skynet74]

When a show is not in HD I would prefer that the station fill in those black sidebars with something else other than Black. WBZ Boston used to actually make the black sidebars more of a dark purple. It looked better because at least there was something there. Non HD Newscasts also fill in those sidebars with other things on occasion. So this tells me they have the technology to do it. More stations should. At least SD programming wouldn't look so odd if they filled in the sidebars with something.

 

[FreddyE1977]

Amazingly enough, I have found that the longer you watch 480i on these sets, the less you notice.
Your brain seems to have some built-in mechanism to compensate for the stretching distortions.

 

[flytrap]

People that leave their sets on the stretch mode when watching a 4:3 channel is a pet peeve of mine. I can't figure out why someone would want to watch a show where everyone looks fat. One problem is that the factory default settings on most TV are automatically set to the stretch mode. Even worse, some sets have some sort of auto mode that will even stretch 4:3 shows that are broadcast on widescreen stations. The sidebars are added at the station so that the correct format is displayed. But some sets will overide the sidebars and stretch or zoom the picture anyway. Using the zoom mode on a tv is also another pet peeve, I can't figure out why anyone would need that. All it does is crop the top and bottom of the picture off, which causes peoples heads to be cut off, and the subtitles and scoreboard and other graphics at the bottom of the screen are also cut off. It seems like its mainly women who can't figure out the concept of aspect ratio. and will insist on zooming in or stretching just to fill in the sidebars. Before widescreen they used to fuss about the letterbox bars at the top and bottom. You just can't win with some people.

 

[Tom Wells]

The stretching looks worse on some sets than others. On our Sony Bravia 42", the ratio is relatively "normal" in the middle of the screen, with the "non-linearity" increasing as you go out outward the edges. Faces in the center of the screen do not look "fat", but if they are off in the outside 1/4 of the screen, the distortion is evident. Since most of the action is centered, it doesn't call any attention to the
stretching, and isn't annoying at all. On the Samsung, I could barely watch it in the store without feeling sick, as the width aspect is unchanging across the whole screen.

 

[anotherguyTN]

Amazingly enough, I have found that the longer you watch 480i on these sets, the less you notice.
Your brain seems to have some built-in mechanism to compensate for the stretching distortions.

It's become where I don't notice it as much on my HDTV as well.(An Insignia 32 inch). And like I said earlier, it's not as noticeable to me on cartoons.

When a show is not in HD I would prefer that the station fill in those black sidebars with something else other than Black. WBZ Boston used to actually make the black sidebars more of a dark purple. It looked better because at least there was something there. Non HD Newscasts also fill in those sidebars with other things on occasion. So this tells me they have the technology to do it. More stations should. At least SD programming wouldn't look so odd if they filled in the sidebars with something.

I've noticed that TBS HD will have side bars that say "TBS HD" when they have 4:3 ads or shows. WMC NBC 5 in Memphis has side bars that say "Action News 5" on reports that are 4:3.

I do still use zoom on widescreen shows and movies with bars on the top and bottom on SDTV. I know it varies from show to show, but when zoom mainly eliminates the black bars and little or none of the picture I like it that way. Setting to normal causes it to have black bars on all 4 sides, which definitely makes no sense. For HD I keep it on wide and take whatever comes across.

 

[flytrap]

Using the zoom function is fine when using it on a letterboxed program, but since you are zooming in and only cropping out the black bars, you will be looking at a blow up of an SD broadcast and the picture quality will be much lower and will look fuzzy.

Using the stretch mode that stretches only the sides and not the middle will make the center look normal but but will make the picture look like a funhouse mirror. Peoples heads will suddenly change shapes when the are in the corner of the frame. Try watching a Nascar race with it set on that mode. Cars will look normal and suddenly start to look like stretch limosines when they move from left to right. It looks like some crazy acid trip.

The bottom line is it is impossible to take a square picture and make a widescreen one out of it. The only way possible is to crop a little off the top and bottom. And that is only possible if the original print was filmed at wide enough angle so that nobody's head gets cut off. It just can't be done. Give me the original aspect anyday.

 

[dhett]

The stretching looks worse on some sets than others. On our Sony Bravia 42", the ratio is relatively "normal" in the middle of the screen, with the "non-linearity" increasing as you go out outward the edges. Faces in the center of the screen do not look "fat", but if they are off in the outside 1/4 of the screen, the distortion is evident. Since most of the action is centered, it doesn't call any attention to the stretching, and isn't annoying at all. On the Samsung, I could barely watch it in the store without feeling sick, as the width aspect is unchanging across the whole screen.

I guess it's in the eye of the beholder. I was visiting family recently and they had a TV like yours - I don't remember the brand - which had a variable aspect ratio. It drove me nuts; I noticed it more, not less. I hate stretch-o-vision, but thought it was worse with the variable ratio.

 

[fybush]

Most Sonys offer at least two strech modes - a constant stretch and the variable one that stretches the sides more than the center. I don't like either mode on my 46XBR4, but the variable one is at least a little more tolerable on most content as long as it doesn't involve a lot of cross-screen motion (like auto racing!)

 

[Skynet74]

Today on my TV I found a sweet spot where I could vary the Zoom setting just enough to shrink the black side bars to about half their former size. Now SD programming is more tolerable.

 

[MarkJohnson]

Skynet you don't think that this would be even more distracting. I personally find it very annoying when I am paying for cable to receive advertisements for other television shows. I also find the black annoying on the side but what else would they put? More advertisements. No thank you.

 

[Skynet74]

Skynet you don't think that this would be even more distracting. I personally find it very annoying when I am paying for cable to receive advertisements for other television shows. I also find the black annoying on the side but what else would they put? More advertisements. No thank you.

When the news fills the side bars with blue and the station Logo, it looks a ton better than just solid black bars. I just saw ABC news fill the side bars with a dark blue color with neon looking text that said HD. It looked sweet.