5 Biggest Lies

[SirRoxalot]

Be a pal, and please link us to this vital research. What you're saying is diametrically opposed to the studies I've seen, like:

http://www.arbitron.com/study/spot_study.asp

A newer study says that stopsets up to 6 minutes are still effective:

http://mcqmedia.us/long-commercial-breaks-bad-for-business/

I can't imagine that anybody has more or better research available than the on-line music providers themselves. If they're running one spot between songs instead of clustering them, it just might be that they have results showing that's more effective than running several songs, then several spots.

Until you can get people to pony up subscription money for OTA radio, you pretty much have to run spots. On-line services offer "free" music - some now capped at a maximum number of hours per month - because they need income just like radio. So, if you can show us that ANY interruption causes a tune-out, the rest of us radio guys would sure like to see that study.

 

[TheBigA]

A newer study says that stopsets up to 6 minutes are still effective:

I don't disagree with that study, and nothing I said in this thread should be interpreted as saying long stopsets are ineffective. What I said is that the length isn't important. So 6 minute clusters (12 units) are fine. There is no advantage to having short stopsets, so having them between every song provides no advantage.

I can't imagine that anybody has more or better research available than the on-line music providers themselves. If they're running one spot between songs instead of clustering them, it just might be that they have results showing that's more effective than running several songs, then several spots.

Online and broadcast are very different animals. In content commercials are new to Pandora. They're most likely running one spot because it's the most they can get away with, given they used to be free. The recording industry has been campaigning to have Pandora run as many minutes as broadcast, using broadcast to justify the higher load. I anticipate that by 2014, you'll see more than one spot per break at Pandora.

 

[JustPastBuffalo]

I spent a large part of my career producing commercials. From the days when stopsets were traditionally placed at 06, 18, 36 and 48 with a maximum of three and a half minutes per stop; to the era of two stopsets an hour, loaded with eight 60s and two 30s. I continue to produce commercials and imaging on a free lance basis. Reading this thread, I just have to say that you can be the most creative maven in America, but if the commercial you produced runs fourth in an eight unit stopset, this guy ain't gonna hear it. My tolerance has a limit; now that I'm off the reservation, it's even more pronounced. Sometimes I don't last beyond the first 30 seconds of commercial number three. And if it's the shouting car guy in Grand Island or the screaming furniture guy in Tonawanda, you can bet your TSL that I'm really gone. In this sense, I'm every bit the average bear. You can do the greatest pre-stopset tease, it doesn't matter. I'm checkin' out. Oh, I'll be back, maybe. But it may be a while. My presets are loaded in the car and at home I have a computer full of music and a SanDisk match pack player with about 200 wav files, plus plenty of vinyl and CDs. Sorry. That's just the way it is.

 

[TheBigA]

Sorry. That's just the way it is.

That's OK...no offense, but you're probably outside the demo. ))

The advertisers who want to reach you will get you on TV.

 

[Mike Sheridan]

Sorry. That's just the way it is.

That's OK...no offense, but you're probably outside the demo. ))

The advertisers who want to reach you will get you on TV.

That's funny but those "inside" the demo have less tolerance for long stopsets than we do. That's just the way it is. Never underestimate the impatience of youth.

 

[JustPastBuffalo]

Inside or outside the demo, it doesn't much matter as I observe 18-34 year olds listening to radio in a real life situation. The radio-advertiser studies that indicate listeners will endure five minutes of commercials intrigue me. Maybe in workplace environments where audiences are captive. Not in cars, and not solo. Bam! Gone! There's a good reason radio stations lead the break with their own promos. They know the game.

 

[TheBigA]

There's a good reason radio stations lead the break with their own promos. They know the game.

I don't know how common this is, but in my case the client can control where they are in the cluster. Most don't care.

Also, have you been counting commercials on TV? Banner & pop-up ads on web sites? Long breaks aren't uncommon in any media. As I said, the pressure will be on internet music sites like Pandora to increase their ads. Pandora is a public company that hasn't turned a profit, and is crying poverty to the record labels. They're demanding the company increase the number of ads, rather than cut the royalty rate.

 

[SirRoxalot]

Nice deflection to Pandora when you realize your original arguement is vacuous.

 

[chas108]

There's a good reason radio stations lead the break with their own promos. They know the game.

I don't know how common this is, but in my case the client can control where they are in the cluster. Most don't care.

Also, have you been counting commercials on TV? Banner & pop-up ads on web sites? Long breaks aren't uncommon in any media. As I said, the pressure will be on internet music sites like Pandora to increase their ads. Pandora is a public company that hasn't turned a profit, and is crying poverty to the record labels. They're demanding the company increase the number of ads, rather than cut the royalty rate.

But A, OTA TV is in the same straits...on-demand and binge viewing are supplanting appointment viewing (unless it's a sporting event, awards show or the like).

JPB's experience has been mine as well. The only hope that anyone's gonna hear the spot that runs 5th in a ten-unit set is 1) They're captive listening and don't control the dial....or 2) They're coming in mid-break and something caught their ear. Maybe they've been thinking about a new car and happened to come in right during a West-Herr or Fuccillo spot.

Whatever the case, an increasing number of media buyers perceive that radio is no longer all that and a bag of chips. So more ad dollars are being diverted to digital.

On 5/24, Jerry Del Colliano reported that both Chrysler and their dealers association have cut radio budgets...by 34 and 28% respectively. In a monkey-see, monkey-do world (give 'ol Billy credit for being unique!), once some dealer figures out that digital works, next regional meeting there'll be five others trying it. That's the nature of automotive.

Despite the research saying listeners will put up with long stopsets...isn't overall usage off? And TSL down? Seems like flat is the new up nowadays.

 

[TheBigA]

Despite the research saying listeners will put up with long stopsets...isn't overall usage off? And TSL down? Seems like flat is the new up nowadays.

TSL has been going down for 25 years. It's obviously caused by the diversity of media available. And ALL of that media is commercially sponsored. So to say it's caused by any one thing ignores the rest of the picture. There's nothing anyone in radio can do to get people to give up their cell phones, computers, and mp3 players. That's just the reality of the marketplace.

Look...the conflict here is between the fact that media costs money, and the audience wants it for free. The balance is figuring out how to give them what they want as cheaply as possible. The big radio companies are better equipped to do radio cheaper than anyone else, including the online sites. It just means more staff cuts and more consolidation. Is that really what you want to promote?

 

[JustPastBuffalo]

"Skip This Ad in 5 Seconds." The browsers I most often use (Firefox or Google Chrome) allow me to block all pop-up advertising (and occasionally warn or prevent me from coming to this site because of potential malware.) Gmail and Yahoo allow users to block sidebar Advertising." So it is that on-line advertising face similar challenges as radio.

Television? As Chas notes, DVRs allow us to fast forward through commercial breaks at 4x. Like most of my friends, I employ that function regularly. The few times that viewers endure commercials are during live sporting events; hockey, football, NASCAR and baseball (if I haven't fallen asleep.) Talk radio, sports and news-talk, may have an advantage over music radio when it comes to listeners' tolerance for enduring commercials; but even in this format, a long commercial break often motivates consumers to "seek."

It's not my intention to get into a prolonged, tautological debate here. In fact, I've come to understand the many conflicting and diverse opinions posted. I'm not absolutely right in my observations, I'm simply not wrong in the way I use and observe others using media, particularly radio, these days. It's always been a challenge. The choices and whirlwind changes in technology and entertainment today make the challenges bigger and more intense.

 

[chas108]

Despite the research saying listeners will put up with long stopsets...isn't overall usage off? And TSL down? Seems like flat is the new up nowadays.

TSL has been going down for 25 years. It's obviously caused by the diversity of media available. And ALL of that media is commercially sponsored. So to say it's caused by any one thing ignores the rest of the picture. There's nothing anyone in radio can do to get people to give up their cell phones, computers, and mp3 players. That's just the reality of the marketplace.

Look...the conflict here is between the fact that media costs money, and the audience wants it for free. The balance is figuring out how to give them what they want as cheaply as possible. The big radio companies are better equipped to do radio cheaper than anyone else, including the online sites. It just means more staff cuts and more consolidation. Is that really what you want to promote?

I'll give you that A. What do I want to promote?

A climate in which radio ad rates can start moving back up. (Roll eyes here)

 

[SirRoxalot]

The only hope radio has when it comes to increasing rates is to make advertisers believe that their spots will be heard. That means an end to 14 unit stopsets. Listeners, particularly younger listeners, are becoming trained to put up with spots between songs. Split the difference and go back to more but shorter stopsets. By the time that people realize they're in a stopset, they may not bother switching if they know it will be over in two minutes. That's what Q107 in Toronto is promising, and doing pretty well with. Why isn't anybody in the US doing it? Because US corporate radio is pretty much controlled by a handful of beancounters who play "monkey see, monkey do".

On-line radio has to make money at some point. They'll have to increase audio advertising because people listening on-line simply aren't looking at the screen. At some point, people will decide that "free" is better than eating up megabytes when the audio content is similar enough. Some people will choose interactive on-line, creating playlists and a deep selection of cuts. Most won't because it's simply too time consuming and complicated. IF radio continues to add value to the music, it will do just fine. If it continues to mimick on-line delivery, as it did when iPods started to become popular and stations "put themselves on shuffle", radio will continue to fade.

 

[TheBigA]

Why isn't anybody in the US doing it? Because US corporate radio is pretty much controlled by a handful of beancounters who play "monkey see, monkey do".

You think Corus Entertainment in Canada isn't run by bean counters? Really?

You're the one complaining about how companies are cutting costs, and you also want them to cut revenues? How do you expect them to "add value" when you want them to cut revenues? It doesn't take a bean counter to know the math won't work.

The fact is that only 25% of the radio stations in this country are owned by big companies. Even small owners with no debt (and I know a few) are running 14 minutes of spots an hour. I know several former programmers who are now owners, and they're doing the same thing. If they could get by with fewer spots, they'd be the ones leading the way. But they don't. They obviously know something you don't.

 

[SirRoxalot]

Nobody is asking companies to cut revenues. You keep saying that, but several people on this thread have shown how revenues stay the same or increase simply by making the spots more valuable because they're more likely to be heard. Nobody is advocating fewer spots. Several people are advocating a different distribution of the spot load.

Small owners generally do with the big companies do. Most small owners have always run more spots than major market stations because they had less competition. Any former programmers you know who are now owners are probably mortgaged to the hilt, and need to maximize revenue, so they do what they were taught in big markets - cluster 14 minutes of spots into two stopsets.

 

[TheBigA]

Several people are advocating a different distribution of the spot load.

That would be fine if all dayparts were equal. But they're not. Advertisers want certain specific dayparts. That's a more concentrated inventory than selling a 24/7 schedule. I've already addressed the spots-between-songs idea. Increasing the number of interruptions in program flow is bad programming and even worse for PPM. That's why it's not done. Not because of "corporate."

Small owners generally do with the big companies do.

BS. They absolutely hate what big companies do, and if you'd attend NAB meetings, you'd hear them howl. They're the ones against consolidation, against the performance royalty, and against over commercialization of programming. They're also more likely to take chances with music. But 14 minutes an hour has been the norm for over 40 years. If you'd do the math, as I've asked, you'd see how it breaks out.

Any former programmers you know who are now owners are probably mortgaged to the hilt.

Actually they're not. They paid cash for their stations and owe no money. They run 14 minutes an hour because that's what it takes to meet payroll and cover expenses, and still keep the spot price affordable. FYI, they do 3 stopsets an hour. They aren't PPM markets.

 

[chas108]

But 14 minutes an hour has been the norm for over 40 years. If you'd do the math, as I've asked, you'd see how it breaks out.

If you're talking about the 60's and today, then yes.

But we went thru quite a few years when winning stations ran 8 minutes tops...maybe 10.

The move back toward 14-16 minutes came after 9/11.

 

[TheBigA]

But we went thru quite a few years when winning stations ran 8 minutes tops...maybe 10.

Maybe at some places, but I have old program logs from 1992 with 12 minutes an hour. 14 in morning drive.