50,000 Watt AM Stations on Regional Channels

[Gregg.]

There are a handful of AM stations around the U.S. that have gotten the FCC to grant them 50,000 watts around the clock, yet are on regional channels. You'd think these frequencies would be so full of nearby stations that it would be nearly impossible to run the maximum power day and night. But thanks to directional antennas, sometimes requiring many towers, they can have the same power as a clear channel Class A station, even if they're only Class B. Canada has many of these stations but I only count five in the U.S. And with the cost of putting up multiple towers on a large plot of land, it's unlikely there will be any more in the U.S.

I have a list I've put together. Interesting that both the Seattle and Detroit markets have two. Maybe there are some I've missed?
.

580 KMJ ... Fresno ... Talk ... Cumulus ... Directional all hours, four towers.

950 KJR ... Seattle ... Sports ... iHeart ... Directional all hours, three towers.

950 WWJ ... Detroit ... All-News ... Audacy ... Directional all hours, five towers days, six towers nights.

1310 WXYT ... Detroit ... Sports ... Audacy ... Directional all hours, nine towers.

1380 KRKO ... Everett WA ... Oldies ... S-R Broadcasting ... Non-directional days, Directional 4 towers nights.

And 1150 KEIB Los Angeles comes close, an iHeart talk radio station. It's 50,000 watts by day, 44,000 watts at night, with a four-tower directional antenna. Even though it's found among clear channel frequencies, 1150 is a regional frequency.

 

[fordranger797]

I think you could add KKXA 1520 to that list as well (sister station of KRKO). The signal from both KRKO and KKXA can be a little spotty around the Puget Sound area, but that isn't too much of a problem, as they both have FM translators now. Ironically, I was sitting in a hotel room in the middle of nowhere on Vancouver Island last year (with nothing to listen to locally on the hotel radio). All of the Seattle AM stations came booming in, with KRKO and KKXA being among the best. They're throwing quite a bit of power toward Vancouver Island, it seems.

KJR has always been a very strong station around the Seattle area as well. You wouldn't even be able to tell that it's a regional frequency.

 

[cyberdad]

I think you could add KKXA 1520 to that list as well (sister station of KRKO). The signal from both KRKO and KKXA can be a little spotty around the Puget Sound area, but that isn't too much of a problem, as they both have FM translators now. Ironically, I was sitting in a hotel room in the middle of nowhere on Vancouver Island last year (with nothing to listen to locally on the hotel radio). All of the Seattle AM stations came booming in, with KRKO and KKXA being among the best. They're throwing quite a bit of power toward Vancouver Island, it seems.

KJR has always been a very strong station around the Seattle area as well. You wouldn't even be able to tell that it's a regional frequency.

Seattle signals doing well in Vancouver has always been my experience there as well. I think the partial saltwater path has a lot to do with that. As well as those directional patterns.

I don't think pumping 50kw into a highly directional pattern gets these stations all that much, aside from concentrating a monster signal into a relatively small target area. JMHO. But I suppose that's the whole idea in the first place. WWJ does manage to put a fairly decent day signal to the east. But that means it's going into Canada, which I doubt is of any interest to them. Same goes for those Seattle signals into Canada.

Speaking of all those highly directional flamethrowers in Canada... Part of the idea there is simply to keep the signal out of the U.S, and thus enabling them to gain better coverage in their home markets. A little added reach beyond their primary home turf probably does count for something as well. At least on a secondary basis.

Finally, as for KXXA... 1520 is not a "regional" channel.

 

[Schroedingers Cat]

KOL/KKOL1300 once was 50/47, but a lot of problems arose, and now it's just 3.2 kW Night. After those seven that are or were 50 kW Night or close, the Night powers dropped to the 15-25 kW range. All or almost all of the stations with 50 kW Day and high power Night were first authorized in the 1920s, and interfered with a lot of other facilities with nondirectional or less directional facilities authorized in the late 1930s to early 1940s. WWJ and WXYT interfered with a lot of stations as primary NIF contributors. They were only required to reduce IDF 10% toward those stations under the ratchet clause. Note that most either are directed into the ocean or remote parts of Canada.

 

[billmich]

WXYT is on 1270, not 1310

 

[SomeRadioGuy]

interesting note for us nerds.. we have several Class A's in Alaska, without looking.. just about all are on the same channel as clear channel's in the lower 48....and several dont have 50kw day or night

 

[Kelly A]

I don't think pumping 50kw into a highly directional pattern gets these stations all that much, aside from concentrating a monster signal into a relatively small target area.

Uh, you do know that's not why AM stations are directional, do you? Being directional is to protect other co and adjacent stations from interference. The main lobe is generally intended to make sure the directional station covers its city of license.

 

[SomeRadioGuy]

Seattle signals doing well in Vancouver has always been my experience there as well. I think the partial saltwater path has a lot to do with that. As well as those directional patterns.

I don't think pumping 50kw into a highly directional pattern gets these stations all that much, aside from concentrating a monster signal into a relatively small target area. JMHO. But I suppose that's the whole idea in the first place. WWJ does manage to put a fairly decent day signal to the east. But that means it's going into Canada, which I doubt is of any interest to them. Same goes for those Seattle signals into Canada.

Speaking of all those highly directional flamethrowers in Canada... Part of the idea there is simply to keep the signal out of the U.S, and thus enabling them to gain better coverage in their home markets. A little added reach beyond their primary home turf probably does count for something as well. At least on a secondary basis.

Finally, as for KXXA... 1520 is not a "regional" channel.

Directional signals get them exact what they want.. sometimes they have to build far away from the target market, often they have to protect other stations.. sometimes both.

I would hardly say part of the idea is to keep it out of the US.. most DA's arent really do that, its just a function of what they have to protect, I think

 

[Kelly A]

Directional signals get them exact what they want.. sometimes they have to build far away from the target market, often they have to protect other stations.. sometimes both.

No they don't, that's not how it works at all. A station can't just decide to directionalize their signal because they want to reach a certain area. It's purely to protect other stations while still serving their city of license.

 

[SomeRadioGuy]

No they don't, that's not how it works at all. A station can't just decide to directionalize their signal because they want to reach a certain area. It's purely to protect other stations while still serving their city of license.

WFDF did.. they were alot less then 50kw and located somewhere else other than where they are now.. and wanted 50kw and good coverage of detroit.

 

[Schroedingers Cat]

As long as stations don't interfere with other stations, they can maximize their signal toward certain areas by the pattern and transmitter location that favors certain areas. Sometimes protecting certain areas and stations can occur because they do measured conductivity. However, according to Glen Clark, who researched moving the WLS array in the 1970s to Addison, and designed the newer dogleg WMVP array in Downers Grove, the conductivity of the Chicago area is one of the few areas in the country that closely matches M-3. Sometimes multiple ownership considerations and in the past network overlap come into play.

They most likely have WAIT/WCPT 820 measured conductivities for both the Elmhurst and Joliet sites. WLS did an actual conductivity study with a temporary antenna in Addison on 1200 kHz when it was a vacant channel. I think it's on the History Card.

 

[Schroedingers Cat]

WFDF did.. they were alot less then 50kw and located somewhere else other than where they are now.. and wanted 50kw and good coverage of detroit.

I never did figure out all the reasons why they were 1000 watts DA-1 when they moved from 1310 to 910 in 1941. Founder Frank Fallain and CE Gerry Wolpert were of the ham radio persuasion that you should only use the power needed to serve the market. Then in 1957, they had the land so they could have rebuilt after a tornado, on the land adjacent to the old tornado damaged array, that they owned, and put up presumably a fourth tower for Night and gone 5000 watts, not just Day, but also Night. WFRO 900 came on much later than 1941. There may have been network duplication overlap considerations.

Glen Clark, once again, wanted to put the WFDF 50 kW array near the WJR array, but Riverview wouldn't agree to zoning. The real measured conductivity is better closer to the Detroit River, and it would have served all of Detroit and the Eastern part of the Metro a lot better.

Up here near Pellston, WFDF comes in well with 25000 watts Night, though measurably weaker than WWJ with 50000 watts, but usually with less interference. They are the strongest skywaves in the area, peaking above their NIF contour. These are real measurements on an FIM-41, and according to and agreeing with skywave modeling. I think WMVP is the third strongest skywave now.

 

[SomeRadioGuy]

KOL/KKOL1300 once was 50/47, but a lot of problems arose, and now it's just 3.2 kW Night. After those seven that are or were 50 kW Night or close, the Night powers dropped to the 15-25 kW range. All or almost all of the stations with 50 kW Day and high power Night were first authorized in the 1920s, and interfered with a lot of other facilities with nondirectional or less directional facilities authorized in the late 1930s to early 1940s. WWJ and WXYT interfered with a lot of stations as primary NIF contributors. They were only required to reduce IDF 10% toward those stations under the ratchet clause. Note that most either are directed into the ocean or remote parts of Canada.

I think, oddly enough, WFDF was a factor/concern with the now extinct KIYU 910's skywave

 

[Kelly A]

WFDF did.. they were alot less then 50kw and located somewhere else other than where they are now.. and wanted 50kw and good coverage of detroit.

Increasing power or class that still requires using a directional pattern to protect other stations, isn't the same as directionalizing the station as some sort of competitive advantage.

 

[gr8oldies]

Directional signals get them exact what they want.. sometimes they have to build far away from the target market, often they have to protect other stations.. sometimes both.

I would hardly say part of the idea is to keep it out of the US.. most DA's arent really do that, its just a function of what they have to protect, I think

See CKLW that was always a border blaster into the US, even when they were running Mutual Network programming.

 

[cyberdad]

Directional signals get them exact what they want.. sometimes they have to build far away from the target market, often they have to protect other stations.. sometimes both.

Absolutely. WISN in Milwaukee is a case in point. A big signal shoehorned in on 1130 between other big signals in Detroit and Minneapolis. 9-towers about 20 miles miles south of Milwaukee. My brother lives even closer to the site. About 16 miles to the west. WISN has a killer signal in Milwaukee metro 24/7. My brother can't hear WISN at night. (Neither can I about 35 miles southwest of the site!

I would hardly say part of the idea is to keep it out of the US.. most DA's arent really do that, its just a function of what they have to protect, I think

Obviously, the main objective is to cover the target area. But I'd be surprised if protecting nearby U.S, co-channel stations isn't also a consideration. At least in some cases. A tight pattern covers both bases.

 

[davideduardo]

Absolutely. WISN in Milwaukee is a case in point. A big signal shoehorned in on 1130 between other big signals in Detroit and Minneapolis. 9-towers about 20 miles miles south of Milwaukee. My brother lives even closer to the site. About 16 miles to the west. WISN has a killer signal in Milwaukee metro 24/7. My brother can't hear WISN at night. (Neither can I about 35 miles southwest of the site!

Obviously, the main objective is to cover the target area. But I'd be surprised if protecting nearby U.S, co-channel stations isn't also a consideration. At least in some cases. A tight pattern covers both bases.

Of course, CKLW was principally protecting the 150,000 watt station in Cd. Juárez, Chih., México. And, IIRC, early on in NARBA days there was a Cuban assignment on 800 but i don't think this ever got finalized.

 

[cyberdad]

Of course, CKLW was principally protecting the 150,000 watt station in Cd. Juárez, Chih., México. And, IIRC, early on in NARBA days there was a Cuban assignment on 800 but i don't think this ever got finalized.

That's what I was thinking. I was also thinking that if the Cuba 800 never materialized, that opened the door for PJB to be built. Although I don't think North American Stations were obliged to protect PJB,

Going back to 1130... You had WISN protecting Detroit and Minneapolis (always WDGY and WCAR to me). Which in turn were protecting New York, Shreveport, and perhaps also Vancouver. Lots of creative engineering going on there!

 

[Schroedingers Cat]

If you talk to people in Northern Michigan who grew up here, they all mention listening to CKLW, as well as WLS and WCFL, at Night, before FM took over.

WKNR 1310 Keener 13 also came in well many Nights. With WCCW dropping Night service and WIBA planning to decrease power, WDTW will be clearer again.

If you look at WBBR, WDFN, WISN, and KTLK, they all line up for mutual protection

 

[billmich]

I never did figure out all the reasons why they were 1000 watts DA-1 when they moved from 1310 to 910 in 1941. Founder Frank Fallain and CE Gerry Wolpert were of the ham radio persuasion that you should only use the power needed to serve the market. Then in 1957, they had the land so they could have rebuilt after a tornado, on the land adjacent to the old tornado damaged array, that they owned, and put up presumably a fourth tower for Night and gone 5000 watts, not just Day, but also Night. WFRO 900 came on much later than 1941. There may have been network duplication overlap considerations.

Glen Clark, once again, wanted to put the WFDF 50 kW array near the WJR array, but Riverview wouldn't agree to zoning. The real measured conductivity is better closer to the Detroit River, and it would have served all of Detroit and the Eastern part of the Metro a lot better.

Up here near Pellston, WFDF comes in well with 25000 watts Night, though measurably weaker than WWJ with 50000 watts, but usually with less interference. They are the strongest skywaves in the area, peaking above their NIF contour. These are real measurements on an FIM-41, and according to and agreeing with skywave modeling. I think WMVP is the third strongest skywave now.

what's 1500 WLQV like up there with their 10,000 watts?