50,000 Watt AM Stations on Regional Channels

[Schroedingers Cat]

what's 1500 WLQV like up there with their 10,000 watts?

It comes in pretty well. Along with WDFN and WXYT, it's better further East in Michigan.

Sometimes in the Winter, WLQV 1500 comes in well all Day long. I remember Dick Purtan talking about WCZY, "Detroit's 100 and 50000 watt" station, WCZY-FM being 100 kW ERP simulcast with 1500. 1500 had a decent ground wave in Harrisville, due to a all good conductivity and water path across Lake Huron.

 

[davideduardo]

If you talk to people in Northern Michigan who grew up here, they all mention listening to CKLW, as well as WLS and WCFL, at Night, before FM took over.

I was gone from Omena before CKLW adopted the "Drake Format". So it was WLS. Daytime it was 1210 WKNX from Saginaw / Bay City and WHGR from Houghton Lake. And occasionally WOKY on 920 from Milwaukee.

WKNR 1310 Keener 13 also came in well many Nights. With WCCW dropping Night service and WIBA planning to decrease power, WDTW will be clearer again.

Keener was not listenable in my time there. WIBA was the dominant 1310, but the channel was crowded.

If you look at WBBR, WDFN, WISN, and KTLK, they all line up for mutual protection

Just like some of the past Canadian stations with 10 kw to 50 kw on regional channels that all shot north from sites well to the south of their COL.

 

[Schroedingers Cat]

I was gone from Omena before CKLW adopted the "Drake Format". So it was WLS. Daytime it was 1210 WKNX from Saginaw / Bay City and WHGR from Houghton Lake. And occasionally WOKY on 920 from Milwaukee.

Keener was not listenable in my time there. WIBA was the dominant 1310, but the channel was crowded.

Just like some of the past Canadian stations with 10 kw to 50 kw on regional channels that all shot north from sites well to the south of their COL.

A lot of stations in the 1960s used to sign off at 10 PM to 12 AM, even into the 1970s. WIBA may have been one of them. I heard WKNR in the middle of the Night at Crystal Lake near Frankfort, MI in the late 1960s. Maybe they were on Day Pattern, or the other stations were off. WKNR did come in stronger regularly toward straight North and the Straits Area. At Crystal Lake you could hear WDOR 910 and WDBC 680 Escanaba across the Lake, better than WCCW 1310 and WTCM 1400 25 or so miles away inland.

 

[BRNout]

Absolutely. WISN in Milwaukee is a case in point. A big signal shoehorned in on 1130 between other big signals in Detroit and Minneapolis. 9-towers about 20 miles miles south of Milwaukee. My brother lives even closer to the site. About 16 miles to the west. WISN has a killer signal in Milwaukee metro 24/7. My brother can't hear WISN at night. (Neither can I about 35 miles southwest of the site!

Obviously, the main objective is to cover the target area. But I'd be surprised if protecting nearby U.S, co-channel stations isn't also a consideration. At least in some cases. A tight pattern covers both bases.

WISN is a great example. I now live in central Kenosha County and not terribly far from their tx site. When they flip to nighttime pattern, their signal turns to crap. But it's still audible. When I lived near Libertyville, IL, I'd be listening to WISN's afternoon show (which has a better signal in much of Lake Co., IL than WLS does) and the signal would go from 8/10 to 0.1/10 at the switch. It drops right off the table. And their night signal is non existent west of Waukesha too. Yet, they come in quite well up into Green Bay and they Fox Valley. Not to mention how they pound into Marquette, MI every night with a signal that is vastly stronger than they offer in most of their market. Though their daytime signal is also somewhat nulled to the west and east, but during the day they can be heard from the UP of MI to Pontiac, IL over to NW Indiana.

And, actually you could say the same about KTLK Minneapolis or WDFN Detroit as all three also have to protect WBBR New York (who was there first as WNEW). It is hard to understate just how directional the signals of these Midwest three actually are, especially at night. WDFN has a slightly looser pattern during the daylight and their pattern switch is often a bit after dark in Detroit, meaning that they step on WISN as the sun gets lower during late summer and autumn. As for KTLK< they have a similar narrow directional signal, especially at night. Was in Duluth last weekend and KTLK is a local up there at night. I can sometimes hear them under WISN when WDFN changes pattern in the evening. Though, as I said, WDFN seems to be able to keep on daytime power a little later in solar time than WISN or KTLK get away with.

And lets not forget one other competitor who dominates early evenings in my area during the fall/winter months: KWKH which would own the frequency (even over WBBR) around here at night. They go to n/t power a bit after local sunset around here due to Shreveport's position that puts it's sunset a good 30-45 minutes later than ours.

 

[Schroedingers Cat]

WDFN only has 2 towers Daytime, and the pattern is close to the 50 kW equivalent to the East and West. This was authorized before Critical Hours restrictions were implemented around 1960. So it radiates much more than would be permitted today toward WBBR. There have been complaints here from Poughkeepsie, NY for instance. WCAR used to be heard slightly Days near Chicago and Milwaukee before WISN moved from 1150 to 1130 circa 1965.

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[KenoGuy]

WISN is a great example. I now live in central Kenosha County and not terribly far from their tx site. When they flip to nighttime pattern, their signal turns to crap. But it's still audible.

There are areas on Green Bay Road (WI 31) in northern Kenosha / southern Racine Counties where, if you look west, you can see the tower lights of both WISN and WTMJ out in Union Grove. WTMJ will be phase-shifting and WISN will be largely non-existent.

 

[SomeRadioGuy]

There are areas on Green Bay Road (WI 31) in northern Kenosha / southern Racine Counties where, if you look west, you can see the tower lights of both WISN and WTMJ out in Union Grove. WTMJ will be phase-shifting and WISN will be largely non-existent.

I was in Hannibal, MO once where another directional array is.... with chief engineer gary galenzer, we were... maybe a mile by air, could about see the towers.... and drove into and out of a null in a few seconds

 

[Schroedingers Cat]

From 70 to 130 degrees true, toward the Lake and population centers to the East and Southeast from WISN, the Night Effective power is only about 10 watts, toward WBBR and KWKH protected skywave areas.

https://transition.fcc.gov/bureaus/mb/databases/querydata/AM_DA_patterns/76f33adc9d9c499abc95c1b6063ebeb7-8413.pdf

 

[cyberdad]

WISN is a great example. I now live in central Kenosha County and not terribly far from their tx site. When they flip to nighttime pattern, their signal turns to crap. But it's still audible. When I lived near Libertyville, IL, I'd be listening to WISN's afternoon show (which has a better signal in much of Lake Co., IL than WLS does) and the signal would go from 8/10 to 0.1/10 at the switch. It drops right off the table. And their night signal is non existent west of Waukesha too. Yet, they come in quite well up into Green Bay and they Fox Valley. Not to mention how they pound into Marquette, MI every night with a signal that is vastly stronger than they offer in most of their market. Though their daytime signal is also somewhat nulled to the west and east, but during the day they can be heard from the UP of MI to Pontiac, IL over to NW Indiana.

My brother lives in Salem. Kenosha County. Where WISN has a worse night signal than graveyard channel WRJN on 1400 does much better...from farther away! And you're absolutely right about WISN daytime being stronger than WLS in Lake County, where I grew up. Where I am now in Crystal Lake, the day signals of WISN, WLS, WMVP, and WYLL are all about equal.

Last Labor Day weekend my son and I were on a road trip across the "top" of Lake Superior On the stretch between Thunder Bay and North Bay, Ontario we stopped for the night in Kapuskasing, Ontario. About a hundred miles north of the eastern portion of the Lake. WISN at night there was as strong as anything on the AM dial...if not stronger.

(Local CKAP on 580 can no longer claim that distinction, since they migrated to FM.)

 

[gr8oldies]

WFDF did.. they were alot less then 50kw and located somewhere else other than where they are now.. and wanted 50kw and good coverage of detroit.

WFDF was a station long licensed to Flint, the change in power and pattern was to move it into Detroit for Radio Disney. WFRO-900 in Fremont, Ohio was bought and signed off for that purpose.

 

[gr8oldies]

If you talk to people in Northern Michigan who grew up here, they all mention listening to CKLW, as well as WLS and WCFL, at Night, before FM took over.

WKNR 1310 Keener 13 also came in well many Nights. With WCCW dropping Night service and WIBA planning to decrease power, WDTW will be clearer again.

If you look at WBBR, WDFN, WISN, and KTLK, they all line up for mutual protection

At our family vacation location in Fremont, Michigan (north of Grand Rapids came in great at night and was the only way I got to hear the night jocks.

 

[KeithE4]

If you talk to people in Northern Michigan who grew up here, they all mention listening to CKLW, as well as WLS and WCFL, at Night, before FM took over.

Also true for northern Wisconsin's Northwoods area. The only semi-local rocker audible there in the '70s was WIFC 95.5 Wausau, about 70-100 miles south, depending on where you were. It put out only a fair signal, even with 100 kW.

At night, it was WLS, WCFL, CKLW, and WABC. The clear channels ruled! WIFC was programming more album tracks at night, not unlike WNAP Indianapolis at the time. Those who wanted the hits after dark had to tune to the blowtorches.

 

[Mark Roberts]

I was in Hannibal, MO once where another directional array is.... with chief engineer gary galenzer, we were... maybe a mile by air, could about see the towers.... and drove into and out of a null in a few seconds

KHMO, I presume? Quite the nighttime array, originally built by Jerrell Shepherd, who was a legend in Missouri radio.

 

[Schroedingers Cat]

If CKLW is staying on Day Pattern, they are sending much of their power Southwest, rather than North, The Night lobe to the North is considerably larger than the Day lobe. That's part of the reduction of the signal if this is true. Also, there are now quite a few stations in the US on 800 at Night that cause more interference. With WMVP reducing power, and changing patterns, they will be lucky if their signal in Northern Michigan and Wisconsin is equal to what it is now.

In retrospect, the FM Top 40s in Northern MIchigan were pretty good, but few had many FM radios to take advantage of it.

At our family vacation location in Fremont, Michigan (north of Grand Rapids came in great at night and was the only way I got to hear the night jocks.

Speaking of Fremont, WSHN-FM 100.1 moved out to Holton on the premise that they still had WSHN 1550 as their First Local Service. Then that was deleted. Fremont is probably one of the more substantial communities in the state without a local radio service. And WSHN 1550 had a pretty limited signal also. Years before WBFC 1490 moved from Fremont to Whitehall.

 

[SomeRadioGuy]

KHMO, I presume? Quite the nighttime array, originally built by Jerrell Shepherd, who was a legend in Missouri radio.

Yup.. Gary was CE there through several owners and took me out to the site once

 

[gr8oldies]

If CKLW is staying on Day Pattern, they are sending much of their power Southwest, rather than North, The Night lobe to the North is considerably larger than the Day lobe. That's part of the reduction of the signal if this is true. Also, there are now quite a few stations in the US on 800 at Night that cause more interference. With WMVP reducing power, and changing patterns, they will be lucky if their signal in Northern Michigan and Wisconsin is equal to what it is now.

In retrospect, the FM Top 40s in Northern MIchigan were pretty good, but few had many FM radios to take advantage of it.


Speaking of Fremont, WSHN-FM 100.1 moved out to Holton on the premise that they still had WSHN 1550 as their First Local Service. Then that was deleted. Fremont is probably one of the more substantial communities in the state without a local radio service. And WSHN 1550 had a pretty limited signal also. Years before WBFC 1490 moved from Fremont to Whitehall.

I remember listening to WSHN because the first year we were there, the radio I had was pretty deaf. I know they had a "community service" talk show and I guess the owner's son doing top 40 for an hour in the afternoon. I had better radios after that, I discovered WOKY and WGRD.

 

[Schroedingers Cat]

I remember listening to WSHN because the first year we were there, the radio I had was pretty deaf. I know they had a "community service" talk show and I guess the owner's son doing top 40 for an hour in the afternoon. I had better radios after that, I discovered WOKY and WGRD.

You would have to have a pretty good radio to get WGRD 1410 in neighboring Mecosta County. Or was it WGRD-FM 97.9? You could get that with a good Sony Portable. J.J. Duling had to have a big Yagi to rebroadcast WGRD-FM on the carrier current station on the weekends.

 

[kevtronics]

In the '90s, 570 WMCA in NYC had a construction permit to upgrade to 50 kW daytime / 30 kW nighttime with a six-tower array. But most of the extra power would be wasted over the Atlantic Ocean, and they never went through with it.

 

[Schroedingers Cat]

In the '90s, 570 WMCA in NYC had a construction permit to upgrade to 50 kW daytime / 30 kW nighttime with a six-tower array. But most of the extra power would be wasted over the Atlantic Ocean, and they never went through with it.

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I heard that it had to do with land acquisition for the extra row of three towers. Maybe that too, but most East Coast stations do go into the ocean. In Michigan, and really anything from upstate NY Westward in the Northern tier of States, the DAs go North into Canada.

 

[davideduardo]

I heard that it had to do with land acquisition for the extra row of three towers. Maybe that too, but most East Coast stations do go into the ocean. In Michigan, and really anything from upstate NY Westward in the Northern tier of States, the DAs go North into Canada.

In any case, the reason for such stations to increase power is to put a higher field intensity over the "market" where noise levels are increasing and more and more people live in apartments where reception of all but the strongest signals is difficult.