50000 Watt Fulltime Class Bs That Were Class IIIs

[Schroedingers Cat]

Sorry, I meant to post this here, but mistakenly posted it on the Chicago Board. Sorry, it was not my original intent to double post.

It's been two decades or so since the first Class III Regional stations in the US have been allowed 50000 watts and lumped together with Class B stations on Clear Channels. While many stations have increased DAY power to 50000 watts, only four managed to get to 50000 watts at night.

What are the characteristics of those stations? They are very OLD stations at the edge of the country or next to the ocean. They had night patterns that already interfered significantly with MANY stations. The Ratchet Clause allowed them to increase all the way to 50000 watts night because they didn't have to protect those stations to 25% RSS limitation of well protected former Class IIIs. Stations that didn't interfere with many cochannel stations tend to be closedly spaced to other well protected stations. These are often limited to 15000 to 25000 watts at night by the old Class III-As that are close by. The standard pattern minimum computed for a 50000 watt station cannot be less than 70.7 mV/m @ 1 kilometer horizontal inverse field. If this or the field above horizontal doesn't already enter into the old Class III-A or III-B 50% RSS or 25% RSS calculation of other stations, it usually cannot be 50000 watts at night. In some cases, other stations can be eliminated or upgraded to allow more interference from other stations. This has mainly been done for day pattern considerations or former Class II/Class Bs. Class B/Class II Clear Channel stations often already had high power at night.

What are those four lucky Class III stations that ended upas 50000 watts day and night?

580 KMJ Fresno, CA
950 KJR Seattle, WA
950 WWJ Detroit, MI
1270 WXYT Detroit, MI

 

[FreddyE1977]

Having lived in the Detroit area, I can tell you the rationale behind those two stations is:

1) Metro Detroit has experienced ENORMOUS suburban sprawl. A significant number of people commute 30-50 miles
one way (my father-in-law used to drive 70). Virtually all of that is north of the northern city limit at 8 Mile Road.
Signal facilities that were approved in the 1930-1960 era simply were no longer able to serve a sizeable chunk of the
population (and in particular, the most affluent part)

2) Both of those stations were the local rights holders to pro sports broadcasts at various times (WWJ carried the
Lions and Pistons when I lived there, WXYT had the Tigers when they went to sports, and later landed the Red Wings).
And there are few listeners crankier than the avid fan who can't get clear reception of his team's games.

3) Since virtually all the people they are concerned about live north of the city, with a good directional array
somewhere south of town you can steer your pattern in a Due North direction and not really bother anyone
besides the moose living in Central Ontario.

 

[Schroedingers Cat]

I had discussed this on a message board and a person who worked there a couple years before the applications went in. Copies of the board discussion ended up on the then GM's desk, according to the person I discussed this with. There were three key points:

1) They could be 50000 watts day and night, but they would have to relocate the TLs considerably south of Detroit.

2) Due to the way the Ratchet Clause is structured, they would be able to cut the existing radiation toward stations they already interferered with at night a lot (50% RSS) by 10%, and maintain 25%-50% RSS interference and still be able to be 50000 watts night, which is impossible for many other stations to do. Only four have been able to do so, KMJ, KJR, WWJ, and WXYT, according to a couple of internet sites I looked at.

3) That the PREDICTED groundwave signal to many areas north of Detroit would be significantly LESS than they were with 5000 watts. This is particularly true of areas within 10 miles or so of the old 5000 watt ND Day and 2 Tower DA-N transmitter sites, which have around a couple million population. This is further complicated by the fact that the actual conductivity is often less than M-3 in many areas.

In the end, the only important factor to most was that they were 50000 watts.

It is kind of neat to hear the awesome 10 mV/m 5% skywave in the Straits Area on WWJ. There's more than 0.5 mV/m skywave at night 95% percent of the time according to an old skywave graph I found on the internet. I guess Alpena gets the strongest signal from WXYT.

 

[cyberdad]

From my unscientific observation, the 50kw night power hasn't made much of a difference with the Detroit stations. WWJ is/was a fairly easy catch at night here northwest of Chicago, but it doesn't dominate the channel. WXYT was relatively difficult before the power boost....relatively difficult after.

From my trips to the west coast, KMJ seems to be getting out a little better with the same pattern day and night.....which is basically aimed west toward the ocean. I can't really address KJR because I don't have enough experience tracking the signal. But it certainly doesn't seem to be the best 50kw in town....or anything even approaching that.

 

[radioman148]

KMJ comes in much better in Hawaii than it used to. ;D

 

[Icangelp]

KMJ comes in much better in Hawaii than it used to. ;D

That explains all the ads for Spam on KMJ.

 

[HGR1290]

WWJ's night signal in Central and Northern Michigan is MUCH improved from its old 5kW 2 tower DA. Way-way back when I recall trying to listen to the Redwings on WWJ when I lived in Midland. This was back in the mid 70s. It was there, but it was quite a project to sit thru an entire game with the signal rising to the top and then falling back down into the Co-channel. WWJ is easy day and night in the Saginaw, Bay City, Midland area. As Schroedingers Cat points out the skywave up at the straits is pretty strong and consistant from WWJ. WWJ pulled in east, west and south to shoot a pretty massive signal up through the state.

WXYT seems to be aimed a bit more North=Northeast, and does not seem to be as strong in some parts of MI, where WWJ is strong.

 

[cyberdad]

In reading my earlier post, I may have come off as suggesting that the upgrades to 50kw was a waste. That wasn't my intent at all. Three of these four were for established stations in large metro areas, where urban/suburban sprawl combined with more ambient noise may have rendered their signals uncompetitive. My feeling is that these upgrades definitely made sense.

My observation was that these upgrades were accomplished in such a fashion as to minimize effect on the noise level in areas being protected by the directional antenna patterns. Obviously, the stations become blowtorches in the areas where the new juice is being aimed.

KMJ is a slightly different animal in my view. I'm not saying that their upgrade wasn't worthwhile. But I would've thought they were doing well enough with 5kw on their excellent dial position, 580. When I was in Santa Rosa last month, KMJ wasn't coming in like a local, but they still had a pretty good signal. So what I see....from my admittedly limited view...is lots of new signal going to areas that likely are of no interest whatsoever to KMJ or its advertisers. For example, most of the Central Valley and Central Coast are pretty sparsely populated, while the signal in the Bay area...while listenable in much of the region....is not at all competitive. Especially with much of the same programming available on local signals.

 

[stacker]

You know, the interesting thing about 50,000 watt class B stations (on regional channels) is this: They tend to throw a lot of interference to the other class B co-channel stations during critical hours. Sometimes the interference extends well into the 5 mV/m contour of the affected station. Under the current rules, all the station receiving interference during critical hours can do is seek to increase their own power and that just leads to more interference. Maybe its time to review the class B rules.

 

[davideduardo]

KMJ is a slightly different animal in my view. I'm not saying that their upgrade wasn't worthwhile. But I would've thought they were doing well enough with 5kw on their excellent dial position, 580. When I was in Santa Rosa last month, KMJ wasn't coming in like a local, but they still had a pretty good signal. So what I see....from my admittedly limited view...is lots of new signal going to areas that likely are of no interest whatsoever to KMJ or its advertisers. For example, most of the Central Valley and Central Coast are pretty sparsely populated, while the signal in the Bay area...while listenable in much of the region....is not at all competitive. Especially with much of the same programming available on local signals.

Fresno is a single county metro for ratings, although the trade area includes the Visalia and Merced Arbitron markets. KMJ increased power to overcome increasing man made noise in those three markets.

 

[Schroedingers Cat]

You know, the interesting thing about 50,000 watt class B stations (on regional channels) is this: They tend to throw a lot of interference to the other class B co-channel stations during critical hours. Sometimes the interference extends well into the 5 mV/m contour of the affected station. Under the current rules, all the station receiving interference during critical hours can do is seek to increase their own power and that just leads to more interference. Maybe its time to review the class B rules.

I had an email discussion on this very issue with one of the top AM consulting engineers in the country. We reached a consensus that it was best left to stations to resolve between themselves rather than a further burden to all applicants. It was and would continue to be less of an issue for many stations using the same or similar directional patterns day and night.

 

[Schroedingers Cat]

I just went through a copy of WRTH and a couple of other websites to see what the most powerful former Class III Regional stations at night are after KMJ, KJR, WWJ, and WXYT.

The eight most powerful former Class III Regionals at night all came on the air by 1927. WHBY more or less inherited WISN's 1150 interference protection umbrella when WISN moved to 1130 and WHBY moved to 1150. WISN came on in 1922. Oddly, if WISN had stayed on 1150 it would probably be more powerful at night by now than it is on 1130. W9WI might have access to the old 1150 DA parameters. It seems that he said that they used a parallelogram and were DA-2 on 1150.

KKOL (1922) 1300 50 kW Day 47 kW Night
KTLK (1927) 1150 50 kW Day 44 kW Night
WFDF (1922) 910 50 kW Day 25 kW Night
WHBY (1925) 1150 20 kW Day 25 kW Night

The next four are also near the ocean or next to the edge of the US.

I will continue to slowly work down the list of most powerful day and or night former Class III Regionals.

 

[Schroedingers Cat]

I found this link, but I don't see the actual DA parameters listed for the four tower WISN 1150 5000 Watt DA-1 array.

http://www.engineeringradio.us/blog/2011/02/milwaukees-oldest-radio-station/

 

[drt]

I'm not sure if 710 is or was considered a clear channel, but if so, then another station that meets these requirements is WAQI - Radio Mambi, licensed to Miami, with directional tower array in Miramar (n.w. of Miami); they are are 50,000 watts d.a. day and night. (changing patterns).


From my location in St. Petersburg, if I turn my radio to a north/south position, I get the strong Cuban station that tries its best to jam the anti-Castro talk station out of Miami and if I turn my radio to a s.e./n.w. position, then I receive WAQI. Even for those that don't speak Spanish, it is usually easy to determine which station you have of the two; if you hear talk and music and/or baseball games, it is the Cuban 710; WAQI, to the best of my knowledge is talk only.

I've heard the Cuban station under WAQI in Hollywood, Fl, probably not more than 10 miles, if that far, from the WAQI towers.

I believe David Eduardo probably could give more information on this and maybe even some interesting history when 710 in Miami was WGBS and is alleged to have had a part in the Bay of Pigs invasion.
http://www.radio-locator.com/info/WAQI-AM

drt,
st. petersburg,fl

 

[Fenway1912]

Detroit is hampered as the best locations for a transmitter happen to be across the river in Ontario.

 

[Schroedingers Cat]

Detroit is hampered as the best locations for a transmitter happen to be across the river in Ontario.

Fenway, were you the poster on the Boston message board who talked about a US station who investigated putting their transmitter in Canada? I think we discussed the plan to downgrade WBZ (like WOWO) to upgrade WXYT on 1030 and swap out the fulltime 1270 facility to WUFL, the Detroit area (Sterling Heights) station on 1030.

 

[Tincap]

Having lived in the Detroit area, I can tell you the rationale behind those two stations is:

3) Since virtually all the people they are concerned about live north of the city, with a good directional array
somewhere south of town you can steer your pattern in a Due North direction and not really bother anyone
besides the moose living in Central Ontario.

I hope the moose are enjoying those Detroit stations, because I can't pick them up too well (day or night), here in eastern Ontario.

~BG

 

[Fenway1912]

Detroit is hampered as the best locations for a transmitter happen to be across the river in Ontario.

Fenway, were you the poster on the Boston message board who talked about a US station who investigated putting their transmitter in Canada? I think we discussed the plan to downgrade WBZ (like WOWO) to upgrade WXYT on 1030 and swap out the fulltime 1270 facility to WUFL, the Detroit area (Sterling Heights) station on 1030.

I was told that by a WXYT engineer as the Tigers were concerned with coverage. The matter is moot now as CBS has embraced FM for sports and it is only a matter of time that WFAN and WSCR move to FM.

A transmitter location in Ontario could well improve things but would the FCC/CRTC ever sign off on something like that? In theory there are some Ontario and Quebec stations that could be helped by transmitters in New York State.

Look at what CKLW pulled off from here
http://goo.gl/maps/Rmzwy

I never heard that CBS was considering downgrading WBZ.

 

[stacker]

I had an email discussion on this very issue with one of the top AM consulting engineers in the country. We reached a consensus that it was best left to stations to resolve between themselves rather than a further burden to all applicants. It was and would continue to be less of an issue for many stations using the same or similar directional patterns day and night.

Yes, but what is the mechanism for stations to resolve the problems? First come first served applications among B's don't permit that. Once the problem appears, it's too late.

 

[davideduardo]

I'm not sure if 710 is or was considered a clear channel, but if so, then another station that meets these requirements is WAQI - Radio Mambi, licensed to Miami, with directional tower array in Miramar (n.w. of Miami); they are are 50,000 watts d.a. day and night. (changing patterns).

710 is a clear channel.

From my location in St. Petersburg, if I turn my radio to a north/south position, I get the strong Cuban station that tries its best to jam the anti-Castro talk station out of Miami and if I turn my radio to a s.e./n.w. position, then I receive WAQI. Even for those that don't speak Spanish, it is usually easy to determine which station you have of the two; if you hear talk and music and/or baseball games, it is the Cuban 710; WAQI, to the best of my knowledge is talk only.

WAQI has a couple of shows with nostalgic Cuban music of the 50's, but 95% of the time they are news and talk.

And the 710 Cuban station is actually a collection of perhaps 5 or 6 transmitters along Cuba's 450 mile east to west length; the intent is to not allow WAQI to be heard in Cuba with its strong anti-Castro and anit-Communist programming.

I believe David Eduardo probably could give more information on this and maybe even some interesting history when 710 in Miami was WGBS and is alleged to have had a part in the Bay of Pigs invasion.

The "authorities" asked a bunch of clear channel stations to broadcast at night to Cuba over a period of time surrounding the missile crisis. The main one was Radio Americas from Swan Island, which was virulent in its attacks on Castro. The programming on US clears was toned down USIS type stuff, but definitely intended to try to make Cubans change their mind about the new government.