• Get involved.
    We want your input!
    Apply for Membership and join the conversations about everything related to broadcasting.

    After we receive your registration, a moderator will review it. After your registration is approved, you will be permitted to post.
    If you use a disposable or false email address, your registration will be rejected.

    After your membership is approved, please take a minute to tell us a little bit about yourself.
    https://www.radiodiscussions.com/forums/introduce-yourself.1088/

    Thanks in advance and have fun!
    RadioDiscussions Administrators

550 vs 1520

R

Radio_bored-Op

yes, both owned by entercomm...I am aware...lol
but which would serve better as a sports station...
I know, here we go again...

but wgr..has bills/which may hurt more than help
and the sabres, with their current mess,
i would rather have the bills...

so, kb1520 gets the sports left overs...
but I find myself tuning to them MORE
For sports than wgr /or the fan...
the 1270 project that was a fun weekend...

soo, this brings me to an interesting question:
does wgr neglect other sports ( as espn did leading
to the creation of espn2 on tv) way back when... and
espn2 dives into the sports of pool ( bad pun...haha)
and other odd ball novelty sports ...finds that fails,
and becomes a mirror of " the mothership" (espn)...
and just gives a surplus of what espn is doing,
plus some additional coverage, usually with
college sports as a focus...
I'm finding that is the case with 1520.... i never think to
check there as Im unaware of their format, but when wgr
either has too much to cover mon.night football,yankees baseball
sabres hockey ( say in october) or . ..mlb/?sabres playoffs hockey
and the third college sport it usually goes to kb1520...

soo my inquiry:
should kb 1520 flip to sports?
carry the bills game, reach a bugger *gasp* regional audience
and take a page of out of citadel/not cumulus/ and double dip
on the billing...when they had the bills on 96.9 and 103.3

or leave kb as is... and only use it for the bisons, bandits
college sports, overflow when wgr has a goldmine of
programming..on sunday evenings... and other key times
when sports are trying to find a frequencey but dint actually FLIP to sports
yea, know are u still thinking rbo is a tool...lol / probably but
at least I make somewhat of a valid point...

thoughts?
 
The best strategy would be for Entercom to partly restructure its local cluster as follows;

WGR---stay with sports on 550, simulcast it on 107.7 to fill in the null to the east
WBEN--keep news/talk on 930, with a CP to increase power to 10,000 watts DA-N (the 107.7 simulcast made
zero difference in 12+ numbers or demos for WBEN, but a little stronger signal on the channel where
everyone still expects to find them, just might--and it's technically do-able)
WWKB-current syndicated fare isn't drawing flies; try something like pop standards or true oldies to get max
mileage out of what's now a wasted signal

The other stations in the cluster should be left alone.
 
A couple of comments. How do you know 10kw DA-N is possible on 930? Have you done a nighttime protection study (co and adjacents?) How many towers would Entercom have to add to the array to do this?

You're leaving an important component out of the equation with 107.7. In Rochester Entercom's main competitor is WHAM (vs. WBEE, for the all-important male demo.) Wethersfield is a very useful tool for bedeviling Cheap Channel, and Rush's live presence on 107.7, heard clearly in much of the Rochester metro, was a major driving force behind WHAM's recent programming reshuffle. Why listen to Rush two-hours-delayed when you can hear it on nifty clear FM (and by "clear" I mean completely free of IBOC hash and its concomitant telco-quality AM analog audio.)

If Entercom can flank WHAM using their rimshot FM which has no other practical application (competitively speaking) they'd be crazy not to.
 
Bob, an interesting theory, and maybe they are trying to work at the margins to hurt Clear Channel in the Rochester market. At the same time, Entercom is the leading player in Rochester even without a direct news-talk presence--and it's hurting itself in at least an equally important market, Buffalo, where it's also the leading player, by diminishing the impact of its very important sports-talker. IMHO they get a marginal benefit in Rochester by shaving a fraction of a share point off WHAM (which is still trailing both their WBEE and Langston's WDKX) but may be shaving a bigger listenership in Buffalo's eastern burbs by reducing WGR's reach.

As far as WBEN I just recall a comment from now-retired chief engineer Dave May back in the early 1980s at the time the FCC was first talking about following Canada's lead and allowing some of what they then called Class III-A stations to raise power..."You know, I hope they do that because we could get away with a 10 kW DA-N setup from Grand Island without much trouble..." I took his word for it, and the 930 channel hasn't changed much since.
 
No question that US regionals can get all the way up to 50kw now. However, in most cases, increasing power much beyond 5kw (at least at night) has proven counterproductive. Because there are so many more stations on those frequencies, it's often necessary to purchase marginal co-channel facilities and take them dark - and/or build elaborate DAs which not only don't improve coverage much - in some cases, the coverage is worse. An example is WXYT 1270 in Detroit which went from a nice simple 2-tower 5kw at night, to a 9-tower 50kw monster just for high-power bragging rights to land Pistons play-by-play. The advantage of WXYT 50kw over WXYZ 5kw exists only on paper. The station's general nighttime coverage now sucks with all the nulls and the pattern-bandwidth issues when listening in the car.

Another Detroit example (that market has to hold the record for massive AM DA systems) is the old Flint daytimer on 910. The Mouse bought it, moved it to Farmington Hills and went to a 50kw DA-2 with eight towers. The project required the purchase and silencing of at least two other stations. The same could easily be true of WBEN - and for what? A million-dollar investment in an AM serving a market which is a fiscal basket case?? If Buffalo declines much more Rochester will surpass it in market size, which is really saying something, because Rochester itself is in decline. The two are virtually the same now. One's #56 and the other is #57; can't recall which is which. :p
 
I'd like to weigh in on this discussion by asking you, Radio Bored-Op, why you think the Bills on WGR "may hurt more than help" the station. The only downside for Entercom is the huge rights fee it pays to air Bills game on WGR. But having the the rights to the city's two major league sports teams only enhances WGR's status as the radio sports leader in the region. WGR posted a 5+ rating in the Fall book (12+), which is huge for an AM station these days. In fact, I wonder what other market of Buffalo's size has two AM stations (the other, of course, is WBEN) with audience shares above a five. Perhaps WGR's fall number would have even been higher with no NHL lockout. So, no, the presence of the Bills on WGR does NOT hurt the station. I'll leave it to the bean counters at Entercom to determine if the rights fees are worth the investment.

Now, on to your question of whether KB should become all sports. Why? Entercom has created a "niche" on KB with its left-leaning programming. Granted, it does not have much of an audience. But for the first time in memory, KB reached a one share in the Fall book. Perhaps more listeners tuned in during the presidential election. Or it could be KB is getting more listeners like me who have largely abandoned WBEN because of its right-wing bent. The ironic thing is Entercom still has me as a sometimes listener. And remember, another all-talk alternative in the form of WNED-AM disappeared in the merger with WBFO. So, KB is more of a talk alternative than it's ever been.

I give credit to Entercom for placing fringe teams such as the Bandits, Bisons, Niagara and Syracuse University on KB, giving those who are interested access to these teams' respective games. But I have to admit that as much as I love the Bisons, their games don't generate much of an audience on the radio. And I doubt the audience numbers would grow if Entercom surrounded these games with yet another national sports network. Outside of Rich Gaenzler, is anyone really listening to the CBS Sports Radio? We don't have any numbers yet. But I doubt "1270 The Fan" is having much of an impact.

Plus, Radio Bored-Op, KB does air home Bills games. At least a couple of times last season when I tuned in, Entercom was using 1520 to sync the games so that the Ralph Wilson Stadium audience could listen, much like 103.3 used to do when the old Citadel had the rights. And remember this, most Bills games air at 1:00, which means they're clearly heard on WGR before it switches to its more limited night-time signal.

Yes, as Bob1370 notes, WGR's eastern listenership is severely affected after dark. That has an impact on any Bills primetime or 4pm games, as well as most Sabres games. Putting these games on 1520 as well as 550 would make the Bills and Sabres accessible to an audience across eastern America. But maybe Entercom does not want to take away the exclusive status WGR enjoys for these games in Buffalo.

I couldn't argue with Entercom if they decided to return oldies or go with standards on KB. I'm pretty sure that would attract slightly higher numbers than progressive talk. But KB going all-sports? NO!
 
Here we are, beating this horse again. WGR has the best AM non-directional daytime signal in the market. It solidly covers the Metro and reaches Toronto. The daytime signal is strong from Cleveland to Watertown. The WGR night pattern has some issues, with nulls or phase outs over population centers in the eastern suburbs, but even at night WGR covers a good part of the 'burbs to the south-southeast, Niagara county and Toronto. Moreover, WGR puts up solid ratings on 550, which leads to billing.

There's no reason to mess with success, especially trading 550 for 1520. There's certainly no reason for a company to compete with itself by putting sports on KB. During the Keymarket-Sinclair era, the corporate mavens signed KB to a deal with One-On-One Sports. The results were less than spectacular.

Most radio fans have a soft spot for KB because of its heritage and the big 50 kw signal which produces broad nighttime coverage. Even in its prime, there were issues in Niagara county during the day because it takes a lot of watts to push RF at 1520. There's no reason to switch sports horses mid-stream. Like it or not, 1520 is the spill-over facility and it serves Entercom well in that capacity.

WBEN going 10 kw is a pipe dream for reasons stated by Savage. WBEN has a clean and strong day and night signal with 5k on 930. What's to be gained by going to 10k? It's easier and more efficient to simulcast on 107.7 or stream. The question of WGR or WBEN on 107.7 can be debated, but Entercom made its decision and for better or worse, WBEN on FM is what it is.

As to WHLD, a friend last week received a phone call from a research firm seeking to survey males in the 25-54 demographic. His schedule didn't allow him to participate in the Q&A, but he suspected the call-out might was commissioned by Cumulus-CBS in connection with 1270 WHLD. On the other hand, Entercom could be conducting research to maintain and improve its brand.
 
FWIW, Dave May thought that WBEN could do 10 kW DA-N with the same two tower pattern it has had since 1941...and he thought that it would increase field strength in the primary market area by about 40% both day and night. Nothing much to the east and northeast of Buffalo on 930(stations to the west are protected by the west/southwest null after dark), there's LESS now on the lower adjacent channel, and nothing on the upper adjacent for a good 400+ miles or more in any direction. Would more TPO matter significantly? Probably in fringe areas like Genesee and Orleans Counties, and maybe in portions of the Southern Tier. It might even help within the primary Erie and Niagara county market by allowing the signal to cut through noise more effectively (although admittedly hotter average modulation and more aggressive compression on the audio chain, cranking up the Optimod, may do some of that job too). They have a nearly new 10 kW Nautel, run at half-power, as their main transmitter, and it wouldn't take much to reset it to run full strength. (Gotta believe they installed a main transmitter capable of double the licensed power with a future CP for a power upgrade in mind.) Their backup Collins 820s are 5 KW units but they're convertible to 10 KW as well.

Was that overly optimistic to think it was doable or desirable? Would it even make a significant difference? That's something better answered by the tech experts around here...
 
Anyone who makes the claim that doubling carrier power is going to make a 40% improvement in signal simply does not understand the relationship between power and coverage. (With all due respect to Mr. May, of course.)

Let me ask a question here. Roberto, if increasing WBEN to 10kw nighttime was as simple as getting a CP to crank an already-existing 10kw transmitter up to its rated power level, can you think of a reason why Entercom wouldn't have already done this?
 
OK, now you got me curious. After reading bob1370 post that doubling power increases signal strength by 40%, I had to go get an old textbook and blow the dust off it. Sure, enough it states that field strength is proportional to the square root of ERP. So if power was doubled and nothing else changed, the field strength would increase by the square root of 2, i.e. a factor of 1.414. OTOH, doubling carrier power sounds impressive, but it is only 3dB higher at the receiver (half an S-unit in ham lingo), and not really all that significant. Enjoying the thread, please hold down the flames if my logic & math are off. LOL
 
No flames here, AL...you're right. That's in theoretical free space - and the only place that exists is in that dusty textbook. That assumes no interference (wouldn't THAT be nice on AM?) and doesn't take propagation, etc. into account. A 3dB difference would be imperceptible to most listeners; it's generally accepted that the minimum difference in audio levels most human-beans can detect is on the order of 6dB.

We also note here for the record the action of receiver AGC. In practical terms increasing WBEN to 10kw nighttime would do little more than increase their electric bill.
 
A station-to-station comparison of ratings, Men 25-54, Fall 2011 to Fall 2012, indicates Buffalo Bill football games drew substantially more listeners to 97 Rock than to WGR. WWKB drew about a one share when games were simulcast on WGR and WWKB, making KB a non-factor. Conversely, WEDG, on average, drew about a 10 share during simulcasts with 97 Rock. The 97 Rock + WEDG simulcast drew considerably more listeners than WGR + WWKB.
 
Savage, you are right about everything you said with one exception: WXYT increased power in 2002 to get the broadcast rights of the Tigers and Red Wings from 50.000 watt Class A WJR. It also didn't hurt that they threw lots of money at the Ilitches as well. Pistons games were briefly heard on 1270 am in the 09-10 season, and now only air there if they choose to let a more important Tigers playoff game or Red Wings game air on 97.1 FM.
 
Bob1370 said:
WWKB -current syndicated fare isn't drawing flies; try something like pop standards or true oldies to get maxmileage out of what's now a wasted signal.
Click to expand...

I like the idea. If the option was pop-standards, play a wide variety of music from 'the crooners' of the '40s and '50s as well as soft pop from later decades, and of course the crooners/'croonettes' of today. If the option is oldies, combine with R&B classics. Rely on national advertising for nighttime programming.
 
I would think that KB gets some cash for clearing the network spots. Am I wrong about that?
 
Not for about 35 years, Mike. Network compensation to stations is limited mostly to long-form shows like financial hour-long shows in major markets. We carried a precious-metals show for about six months three years ago, and the compensation these people offer makes it only make sense late at night.

If there are stations still getting cash compensation for carrying network spots, I'll bet they're limited to top-rated top-ten market signals.
 
It's too bad KB just sounds so horribly bad these days. KB seems to have two modes: weak signal with only a little distortion and pretty good modulation or strong signal with distortion that makes it almost completely unlistenable, with a hum in the background and low modulation. I'm surprised their weekend paid show clients aren't planning a mutiny.
 
The other station in Entercomm's cluster is WWWS 1400 Solod Gold Soul. At 750 watts, non Directional.
Flip formats with 1520. Put solid gold soul across the Eastern US, and cover the fringe sports on a 750watt signal.
 
Status
This thread has been closed due to inactivity. You can create a new thread to discuss this topic.


Back
Top Bottom