60 in a Row

[Buddy Shula]

2 things, you know damn well that WECK does more marketing than any other station by far.

The other thing, 60 minutes of music is a tactic to build TSL. It is basically telling the world that commercials are bad and a tune out. Try explaining that to an advertiser. This industry kills itself.

 

[Buddy Shula]

Who in Buffalo has a full live & local staff? Not even WYRK has that. This is a slow launch. They're still in non-stop music mode. No commercials. They just bought their first TV spots. Why would they buy TV spots? Did they ever buy TV spots for Alt107.7? Format competition doesn't mean you win. iHeart does this a lot. They did it in LA with Alternative, and they did it in Atlanta with country. iHeart doesn't use a media blitz or full live & local air staff because they're iHeart. But they know how to compete.



Ask them. Ask them if they buy formats or audience. My experience is advertisers buy audience. Ask Buddy. Is Buddy selling Oldies or is he selling audience. I bet he's selling audience. The format is the hook that attracts an audience. Not the other way around. Advertisers also buy price. The Wolf will be available at a lower price. That can be attractive. We'll see what advertisers think next month when they start running commercials.

Advertisers buy results and ideas. And by the way, it's really insulting to the air staff at WECK, most of whom in the Buffalo Radio HOF, that you do not even acknowledge. Do you know that little about radio in Buffalo that you do not realize that WECK employees Tom Donahue (HOF), Roger Christian (HOF), Joe Chile (HOF), Bobby O (Should be HOF), Glenn Topolski, and our programming consultant Tom Langmyer (HOF), along with our DOS Don Tomasulo (HOF), Sam Accorodino (40 year sales veteran), James Gillan (creator of Valu Home Center Brand, Mighty Taco Brand, M A S H Urgent Care brand, Trish Wiest ( best media buyer in Buffalo for 40 years), Mark Walter (2 million dollar direct biller per year at ETM), Dennis Majewicz (Best Engineer in Buffalo), Candy Acerino (Entercom Business office 40 years), Renee Curran ( Head of Business Department), Melanie Till ( Project manager for 20 years in Buffalo), and most importantly, my dad, the bedrock of my career.

Big A, when you say no one is employing anyone, you are showing your ignorance, or you are just jealous of the fact that WECK does, and your to self-serving to admit it. I want you to buy a 1KW station, and make it do what WECK does. You can't. You would not know where to start. You don't even admit you see WECK TV spots, and we have advertised from day one to the tune of 200K per year.

So stick it up your ass, and start to appreciate the independent owners in radio who do the exact thing you are afraid to admit.

If you do this to rile me up, it worked. Because you need a lesson in what real radio is. You should be ashamed of yourself. Take a good long look at our all star, local live staff. Then take a look at our competitors. You know zero about what you talk about. Your bored with no job and you can express your regrets and bitterness on this board. Good for you. Where's that getting you?

 

[Buddy Shula]

Small audience means they can sell at a lower price. The numbers you see are 12+ Mon-Sun 6AM-Mid. The sales people have the breakouts. They have the demos, they have listening patterns, and they have all the details advertisers want to see. You don't have any of that. I learned a long time ago that if you aren't the ratings leader, you look for something else in the numbers to sell. So they're not #1 12+, but they may be #1 in some other category. That's what a sales team looks at, and they put those numbers in front of advertisers. Country is their best chance with this signal.

You know SHIT about sales.

 

[TheBigA]

Big A, when you say no one is employing anyone,

I didn't say that. Read my quote. Who hosts your overnight shift?

Your bored with no job and you can express your regrets and bitterness on this board. Good for you. Where's that getting you?

You have no idea what you're talking about. I'm not bored, I have a radio job that keeps me very happy, and I have no regrets or bitterness about anything I do. I love it. And I've never attacked you or your station. Lots of respect from me for what you do, especially with your own money. Your attack is totally unprovoked.

 

[ZantennaG1]

Weird slogan, undoubtedly. The one I hear is "Nine at Nine" (KUAD) or "Nine at Noon" (KRRR). 3 min per song gets you to 27 minutes, and some chatter and commercials gets you up to an hour. The 60, as others were saying, has to be something about 60 minutes of non-stop music (as in without commercials). It's just like a station saying 10,000 songs in a row without commercials (KWBL).

 

[flybynight]

The other thing, 60 minutes of music is a tactic to build TSL. It is basically telling the world that commercials are bad and a tune out. Try explaining that to an advertiser. This industry kills itself.

These liners would definitely please advertisers:
"We play more commercials than anybody!"
"At least 20 commercials every hour!"

And a contest idea:
"If you hear us play less than 10 commercials in a row, be the 10th caller and win!"

 

[ZantennaG1]

And a contest idea:
"If you hear us play less than 10 commercials in a row, be the 10th caller and win!"

Perfect for advertisers and listeners.

 

[davideduardo]

Won what? Alternative Buffalo used to say "55 minutes of music an hour". They were virtually commercial free for YEARS and still couldn't get ratings. No audience--no revenue.

Yeah, with a format that is, in most markets, at an all-time low.

This strategy also hasn't worked for WBUF vs 97 Rock. Listening habits are entrenched and finding new radio listeners is unlikely. These recent "New" generic formats have excited no one. Advertisers are probably satisfied with the results on WYRK, so they have no reason to switch.

Not every new product works... even mighty P&G fails with over 50% of its new products.

However, a mediocre performance in 6+ ratings may have a demographic hot spot that generates results for advertisers. Such as the earlier years of WFAN in New York where it was around 15th in 12+ and #1 in billing.

WBUF is not affecting 97 Rock. The Wolf will not affect WYRK. It's just a pissing war to see who spirals down the drain first...

If The Wolf peels a few share points off WBUF, it realigns the market and changes the order of "must buy" stations. This could well be a diversionary tactic by the owners of The Wolf that will help their cluster.

 

[davideduardo]

That's right. Advertisers buy audience.

Local advertisers that don't use an agency do NOT buy "audience". They buy results. Very often the use of a secondary station by an advertisers will produce the best results as the client can substitute frequency for reach, earning a higher Share of Voice and getting sales.

The Wolf has a very small one (see ratings). You're incorrect because they have already been running commercials. Not many, but a few.

Ad rates are based on audience and results. A smaller share station does not have to be a bad investment.

Entercom did run TV ads and bought billboards for Alternative Buffalo in the beginning. It didn't work.

As I said, a dying format which has considerable trouble getting client results... just look at the Alt station in Philadelphia.

"60 in a Row" must be a lame joke. It doesn't mean commercial free or 60 songs in a row before a commercial. It's just puffery. If the content is bad, "commercial free" doesn't help...

And puffery is the mainstay of the ad industry. If it arouses listener curiosity, it works.

 

[davideduardo]

Ask them. Ask them if they buy formats or audience. My experience is advertisers buy audience. Ask Buddy. Is Buddy selling Oldies or is he selling audience. I bet he's selling audience.

My guess is that he sells results, based on better commercial writing and production, better client service by the sellers and an audience that responds to the kind of client he sells to.

The format is the hook that attracts an audience. Not the other way around. Advertisers also buy price. The Wolf will be available at a lower price. That can be attractive. We'll see what advertisers think next month when they start running commercials.

As I mentioned, a lower cost station is ideal for many businesses at the local level because they can get an effective frequency even if they sacrifice reach. The high Share of Voice is often worth it, making a client stand out. But I think that a good portion of Buddy's success is the service aspect of radio sales.

For some reason, radio became cynical of the old idea of the "consultant sale" where the salesperson spent time finding out about the client's business: competition, pricing, location, service, etc. Using that, the campaign is built to focus on the USP of the client in a way that reaches the needs of the customer. I think the consultant selling approach is significant today because it brings personal attention to the client when all the new media options are very "electronic and cold" to more traditional business owners.

This is the exact opposite of agency sales where it's all "Just the numbers, ma'am".

 

[Theater of My Mind]

To what? What format's missing in the market?

Let me guess: AAA, Smooth Jazz, Deep Classic Hits ...

You forgot Oldies, Soft AC or "Hot Talk."

 

[TheBigA]

For some reason, radio became cynical of the old idea of the "consultant sale" where the salesperson spent time finding out about the client's business: competition, pricing, location, service, etc.

Because it's not very efficient.

 

[davideduardo]

Because it's not very efficient.

Actually, what it is is a policy that requires well trained sellers, familiarity with the businesses of advertisers, and frequent follow ups with clients once they "try" your station.

The system is very efficient, because clients renew in much higher percentages and that makes sellers more efficient.

I had a case years ago of a major consumer brands manufacturer which did not use radio. In the factory lobby was a sign that said, roughly, "if your business is radio advertising, we're not in".

I did some research with friends of the owner and found out that they had been on about 15 different local stations, and got no follow-up service, no real help with creative and no sales increases. Since the ad "buyer" was the owner, he expected to be called on by the manager or owner of a radio station or group, but he was getting the novice sellers.

I went to a hardware store and managed to buy one of those miniature doors that lock companies give retailers to show how their product looks... about 28" high, on a frame so it would open and close. We "fixed" the door to always be open, and then I took it to a sign painter, and had it inscribed with "If your business is selling more, our door is always open". My card was attached.

I delivered it to the lobby of the manufacturer. By the time I got back to the station I had a "call me" message. By the end of the day, I had a contract. I took our production guy and our best known announcer, and we worked out a campaign. We even got the host of one of my station's Quechua shows to do ads in that language for our "Before the Sun Rises" show. They advertised day in and day out every year until I moved on to another market.

As David Ogilvy said, "it's not creative unless it sells". And it does not sell unless you understand the client, their market and things like price points and the like. Direct accounts don't have an agency to do that for them, so a station that wants renewals has to look at how they can do creative that makes listeners want what the client offers.

That was the most efficient sale I may ever have made.

 

[SirRoxalot]

Because it's not very efficient.

It may not be efficient with NYC or LA agency buyers, but it works very well in medium and smaller markets where most sales are based more on relationships and results, particularly long-term results, than they are on raw numbers. If you really knew the Buffalo market, you'd know that. Buffalo is not unique in this way, but it may be slower for new patterns to establish themselves because a lot of people have established relationships with stations and salespeople over a long period of time. Adding a buy, or changing buying habits, requires a real incentive. The same is true of listening habits.

I believe it's a big mistake for The Wolf to play essentially the same music as WYRK. Country has evolved over a long period of time and has plenty of subsets in the genre. You've got everything from country standards to classic country to new country along with cowpunk, country pop, country rock, and more. Like the rock or pop world, it's less about actual era than it is about sound and lyrical content. A good programmer with some promotional support could carve a chunk out of the WYRK audience over time by focusing on a piece of that audience. Going head-to-head simply won't get the job done because there's little incentive for listeners to switch away from the familiar. Even fewer commercials will only prompt a switch among mobile users for short periods of time, until the next tune-out song or element plays. To me, that approach is setting the bar very low instead of going for a winning strategy, especially over time.

 

[tbolt909]

If The Wolf peels a few share points off WBUF, it realigns the market and changes the order of "must buy" stations. This could well be a diversionary tactic by the owners of The Wolf that will help their cluster.

What are you talking about? WBUF has a 2.2 share. Maybe you meant WYRK.

You've tried to make this point before. The Wolf will never peel any significant numbers away from WYRK. Audacy has bigger problems anyway with STAR and WBEN fading fast..

 

[TheBigA]

I believe it's a big mistake for The Wolf to play essentially the same music as WYRK. Country has evolved over a long period of time and has plenty of subsets in the genre. You've got everything from country standards to classic country to new country along with cowpunk, country pop, country rock, and more.

Sure, there are lots of subgenres, but none of them have any track record of delivering results for commercial radio. Stations that play classic country attract the same audience as WBEN, specifically older men. Same with Americana. The commercial country format as it's done now IS in fact a combination of the subgenres of pop country, country rock, and traditional country. In fact this week's #1 song is a waltz performed by Kenny Chesney, who had his first hit in 1994. The reason the country format is successful is because it presents musical variety that other currents-based formats don't do.

I keep reading this comment that The Wolf is playing "essentially the same music," and that's not really true. They play a much broader range of music, songs outside the Top 20, and discovery songs by lesser known artists, mixed in with the hits. The Wolf has a Sunday morning 90s country show. Nothing like it on WYRK. The Wolf has a daily mid-day personality-oriented in-depth artist interview show. Nothing like it on WYRK. We can talk all day about the music, but radio stations are more than music. The presentation of the music is different on The Wolf. We can focus on the fact that for the most part, there are fewer commercials and fewer interruptions in the music. But that's just part of the story if you actually listen to what they're doing. Is it an out-of-the-box hit? No. But it takes time for any format change to have an effect. It's been less than 6 months.

 

[davideduardo]

What are you talking about? WBUF has a 2.2 share. Maybe you meant WYRK.

Yes, of course.

You've tried to make this point before. The Wolf will never peel any significant numbers away from WYRK. Audacy has bigger problems anyway with STAR and WBEN fading fast..

All they have to do is take away a share point or two to change the rating (not the share) so that WYRK is "leveled" with a bunch of other stations in the market. One tenth of a rating point is about 1.3 share points. So that single share or so that the Wolf takes away will adjust the whole market for numbers based buyers.

 

[Rusty Bridges]

I keep reading this comment that The Wolf is playing "essentially the same music," and that's not really true. They play a much broader range of music, songs outside the Top 20, and discovery songs by lesser known artists, mixed in with the hits. The Wolf has a Sunday morning 90s country show. Nothing like it on WYRK. The Wolf has a daily mid-day personality-oriented in-depth artist interview show. Nothing like it on WYRK. We can talk all day about the music, but radio stations are more than music. The presentation of the music is different on The Wolf. We can focus on the fact that for the most part, there are fewer commercials and fewer interruptions in the music. But that's just part of the story if you actually listen to what they're doing. Is it an out-of-the-box hit? No. But it takes time for any format change to have an effect. It's been less than 6 months.

Whoa! Hold on there, Sparky.

I track the Wolf and WYRK like a P3 listener, which is to say I occasionally listen for songs I like and punch out when a song I don't like comes on, often to another format, whether it's Classic Rock on Giant 91.7; Jazz 91.9 or WBFO. I can't tell you that Wolf has a broader playlist or not because and it really doesn't matter. I'm a P3 and I can tell you what the stations sound like, especially compared to the legacy WYRK which has an established morning show that most country listeners are familiar with and like. A former female member of the morning show has recently thrown a lot of dirt on the male host, but throwing dirt also reflects badly on the pitcher as much as the as target. In a lot of cases, long time listeners just don't care. Case in point, 97 Rock with the "toast" debacle...tasteless, stupid, ill-advised.. but a lot of long time 97 listeners were nonplussed and said "no big deal." This is not to defend mysogony or racism, only recounting the facts of what occurred "on the ground."

As to features the Wolf runs? Nothing extraordinary, especially as compared to WYRK which used to air a feature called Wide Open Country on Saturday, hosted by the legacy morning guy, on Saturday morning. The show was a cool imaging device, playing 80s, 90s and occasionally even older songs... but it didn't fit with the "New Country" positioning, so the station dropped it. The WYRK midday show is very locally oriented with listener features, music features and light listener-involvement contesting. The afternoon show follows suit. And nights is clearly established with Townsquare's syndicated Taste Of Country. The point is, The Wolf doesn't have an advantage over WYRK when it comes to personalities and/or features. The Wolf is a snappy little corporate audio playlist lined into a transmitter in the middle of a county that may have more cows and livestock than it has humans. I'm not putting it down, just stating what's real.

§

BTW: is "stick it up your ass" acceptable on this board? Although it made me chuckle, it was disconcerting. Posters here have been reprimanded for far less, and there's no reason to resort to that type vindictiveness, even with Mr. Michigan.

 

[TheBigA]

I'm a P3 and I can tell you what the stations sound like, especially compared to the legacy WYRK which has an established morning show that most country listeners are familiar with and like.

That's great! That's exactly what they're supposed to do. If they wanted to do a different format, that's what they would have done. But in this case, they say they're a country station, and this is what the country format sounds like.

Comparing playlists, WYRK's most-played songs get spun 47 times a week. The Wolf's most-played get 65 spins. #1 at WYRK is "Fancy Like." #1 at The Wolf is "Tequila Little Time." If you want to say they sound the same, that's your choice. But the facts show otherwise.

As to features the Wolf runs? Nothing extraordinary, especially as compared to WYRK which used to air a feature called Wide Open Country on Saturday, hosted by the legacy morning guy, on Saturday morning.

That was then, this is now. I was responding to a poster who suggested the station play a different type of country music. OK, if that's what you want, listen to The Wolf on Sunday morning.

The point is, The Wolf doesn't have an advantage over WYRK when it comes to personalities and/or features.

If you want personalities, you know where to go. If you don't, you have an option. It's that simple. You don't like fried burgers, go to Hardies or Burger King. There are many ways to do the same thing. That's what The Wolf is doing. But to say they're "playing essentially the same music" is simply not true, and ignores all of the things they're doing that are different.

 

[SirRoxalot]

If you want personalities, you know where to go. If you don't, you have an option. It's that simple. You don't like fried burgers, go to Hardies or Burger King. There are many ways to do the same thing. That's what The Wolf is doing. But to say they're "playing essentially the same music" is simply not true, and ignores all of the things they're doing that are different.

The point is that they're not making an impression that they're doing anything different. The impression is that they're just a low-budget copycat on a much weaker signal. That means nobody outside the car is going to reset their dial. Since the average commute in WNY is 15 minutes most listeners might not have to push another button depending on the positioning of WYRK spot clusters. Of course, you're from out of town so you wouldn't know that.

The Wolf needs to give listeners a reason to tune in. Or WYRK needs to give listeners a reason to tune out. If The Wolf was truly competitive it might be a different story.