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78.9/Jack-FM

M

MikeShannon914

Guest
So I'm tuning around on my Sony ICF-2002 radio, which, for one, tunes FM starting at 76 mHz. And what do you know, Jack-FM comes in clearly at 78.9 FM. What, CBS discovered that there's actually more un-retrofitted Japanese FM radios in DFW than there are HD radios?
 
On a portable radio that picks up TV sound (or did before the TV signal change) I used to hear FM stations at various points on the dial spaced among the VHF TV sound. Not sure how this was possible...
 
MikeShannon914 said:
So I'm tuning around on my Sony ICF-2002 radio, which, for one, tunes FM starting at 76 mHz. And what do you know, Jack-FM comes in clearly at 78.9 FM. What, CBS discovered that there's actually more un-retrofitted Japanese FM radios in DFW than there are HD radios?

Jack FM is (almost certainly) only transmitting on 100.3 where it should be. But there's a good technical reason why you're hearing them on 78.9. I apologize: this is a bit lengthy:

Your FM radio contains a "local oscillator". When you tune the radio to 100.3, the local oscillator (I'll call it "LO") is tuned to 111.0. The signal from the LO is mixed with the Jack FM signal from the antenna, and you get four outputs:

- The LO, on 111.0
- Jack FM, on 100.3
- The sum of the two, 211.3
- Their difference, 10.7

The four signals are passed to a filter which rejects all but the 10.7 signal. That 10.7MHz signal is amplified, then the FM audio is demodulated and sent to the speakers.

Now, let's say you want to listen to WRR 101.1 instead. When you turn the dial to 101.1, what actually happens is that the LO is moved from 111.0 to 111.8. The four outputs you get:

- The LO, on 111.8
- WRR, on 101.1
- The sum of the two, on 212.9
- Their difference, 10.7

Again, the filter only passes the 10.7 signal, and you get WRR in the speakers.

Next, you tune the radio to 78.9. The LO is moved to 89.6. The difference between the two signals -- the LO and whatever might be out there on 78.9 - is still 10.7, and you would hear whatever was on 78.9. (actually, that would be the video of channel 5's analog signal, except channel 5's analog signal went off the air last June so now there's *nothing* on 78.9...)

But let's look at another piece of math. With the radio still tuned to 78.9 and the LO still on 89.6, let's say the Jack FM signal on 100.3 is still reaching the antenna. (and of course, it is!) We have:

- The LO, on 89.6
- Jack FM, on 100.3
- Their sum, 189.9
- Their difference --- 10.7

The filter, amplifiers, and demodulator can't tell whether this is 10.7 resulting from 100.3-89.6, or 10.7 resulting from 89.6-78.9. It'll play it out the speakers either way. Since Channel 5's analog video signal isn't there anymore to interfere... you hear Jack FM.

I would imagine if you tuned to 79.7, you'd hear WRR. The magic number is 21.4: tune to a frequency 21.4 below the dial position of a local station, and I'll bet you'll hear it. *Most* listeners never hear this because the "magic number" is greater than the width of the FM band. Tune to the lowest frequency on an ordinary radio (88.1) and the spurious response is on 109.5. Of course, there aren't any stations up there! (OK, their are aircraft stations but they're generally not strong enough to interfere with broadcasters & won't demodulate on an FM radio.)

The same thing can happen on AM. The "magic number" is usually either 900 or 910 -- tune to 790 or 800 & you may well hear AM 1700. And on AM, the "magic number" is smaller than the width of the band -- so most AM radios can hear this phenomonon.
 
I know on AM you can catch harmonic effects if you're close to a transmitter on the low end of the dial -- if you're close by a stick on 610, you can pick it up on 1220, etc.

One weird thing I found once: I was in a town that had two strong AM signals, and when I scanned, both stations came in on top of each other simultaneously on 1560 -- the sum of the two frequencies.
 
I used to pick up WBAP on my phone system when I lived in Arlington. I used to pick up KRLD when living in Garland. Now I live somewhere else and KRLD drives Drake nuts because he still in Garland!

-BGH
 
LibertyNT said:
. But I have gotten KRLD on 180 khz in the Longwave band I've heard that as well. Had no idea why, but these postings explain a lot or quirky things I've heard on AM, FM, TV sound band (Which is probably quite useless now!) , LW etc.
Thanks to all for the information.
 
LibertyNT said:
suprisingly no,
Ive only ever picked up WBAP on 820. But I have gotten KRLD on 180 khz in the Longwave band

I used to pick that up when I was a kid and played around with my mother's rather large portable radio that had all the shortwave bands plus the long wave band. I guess I was too young to question it and just assumed that KRLD intentionally simulcasted there. In my mind, I thought that was very neat and it made me actually think of KRLD as being a more significant station. I had pretty much forgotten all about that until your posting. Now I learn it wasn't even for real.

Thanks to the Internet, not too long ago I was able to discover the name of the station which played the radio chimes I used to hear back then on shortwave that I found very enchanting: Deutsche Welle - and here is an audio clip: http://www.intervalsignals.net/files/ger-z-dw_rvd_c1965.m3u Too bad stations here don't use radio chimes anymore.
 
The other thing that sometimes happens with AM... are spurious mixes with harmonics of the LO.

Consider tuning to AM 1700. The amplifier & demodulator are on 450KHz, so the LO is operating on 1700+450=2150KHz.

Any oscillator has "harmonics". It generates not only the desired frequency, but multiples of that frequency. 2150*2=4300, 2150*3=6450, etc... They get progressively weaker as the "order" of the harmonic increases (and with a good oscillator they're pretty weak to begin with) but they're present.

Let's say there's a strong shortwave signal on 6000KHz.

It will mix with the 3rd harmonic of the LO on 6450. And the difference... is 450KHz... which will be amplified & demodulated.

1700 is probably not a good example in Dallas as you've got a strong local signal.. but in other parts of the country it has not been unusual to receive a strong 6000KHz shortwave signal (Radio Havana Cuba, if I recall properly) at 1700 on the AM dial.

This too could potentially happen with FM as well. For example, the math would seem to suggest you should have been able to pick up channel 13's sound at 94.35 FM -- except that channel 13 doesn't have an analog signal anymore.
 
w9wi said:
This too could potentially happen with FM as well. For example, the math would seem to suggest you should have been able to pick up channel 13's sound at 94.35 FM -- except that channel 13 doesn't have an analog signal anymore.

I was able to pick up KTRK's audio on one particular radio around 102 MHz. I picked up KUHT's audio sparingly below 88 MHz.
 
w9wi said:
The other thing that sometimes happens with AM... are spurious mixes with harmonics of the LO.

Consider tuning to AM 1700. The amplifier & demodulator are on 450KHz, so the LO is operating on 1700+450=2150KHz.

Any oscillator has "harmonics". It generates not only the desired frequency, but multiples of that frequency. 2150*2=4300, 2150*3=6450, etc... They get progressively weaker as the "order" of the harmonic increases (and with a good oscillator they're pretty weak to begin with) but they're present.

Let's say there's a strong shortwave signal on 6000KHz.

It will mix with the 3rd harmonic of the LO on 6450. And the difference... is 450KHz... which will be amplified & demodulated.

1700 is probably not a good example in Dallas as you've got a strong local signal.. but in other parts of the country it has not been unusual to receive a strong 6000KHz shortwave signal (Radio Havana Cuba, if I recall properly) at 1700 on the AM dial.

This too could potentially happen with FM as well. For example, the math would seem to suggest you should have been able to pick up channel 13's sound at 94.35 FM -- except that channel 13 doesn't have an analog signal anymore.

Holy Cow. I feel like I'm reading the script of the movie Contact. This thread is way above my head, but I feel like if I ask the question of how to contact aliens, I would probably get the answer.
 
I always liked the tolling bells of Radio Netherlands, a chime version of the Eighty Years War song "Merck Toch Hoe Sterck." I think they still play it anytime they open the frequency; I haven't tuned the SW broadcast bands in a while.
 
unclepudd said:
At one time you could hear the Mexican "border blasters" at several places on the dial even in DFW.........

You can still pick up XEG out of Monterrey at night on 1050 AM - at 100,000 watts. My understanding is that it is regularly picked up as far north as Canada. It now plays ranchera music - some of which I actually enjoy.

My understanding is on a good night if you have a really good receiver and are able to understand enough Spanish to figure out what you are listening to you can occasionally pick up AM signals from as far away as South America. Back when I was in high school I had a brief fascination for dx'ing on the AM band. Furthest I managed to pick up here in the Metroplex was KDKA Pittsburg and a Cuban station.
 
Lancer said:
I always liked the tolling bells of Radio Netherlands, a chime version of the Eighty Years War song "Merck Toch Hoe Sterck." I think they still play it anytime they open the frequency; I haven't tuned the SW broadcast bands in a while.


Here you go - the Radio Netherlands bells/signal:

[url]http://www.intervalsignals.net/files/hol-z-radio_netherlands_rvd_c1975.m3u

[/url]


The website that these come from is quite fascinating and a good way to lose a couple of hours without realizing it. http://www.intervalsignals.net

Here are some radio chimes found on the site that I think are really cool:

Radio Normandy 1939 (France): http://www.intervalsignals.net/files/fra-z-radio_normandie_c1939.m3u A catchy jingle incorporating the chime follows. The station broadcast programing from France across the English Channel in competition to state-owned monopoly programing on the BBC. The outbreak of World War II brought an end to the station.

Radio El Mundo (Buenos Aries, Argentina) http://www.intervalsignals.net/files/arg-z-radio_el_mundo.m3u Not sure how old this one is but it is really neat - and has a female announcer which is rather rare on old station IDs.

Radio Luxembourg 1933 http://www.intervalsignals.net/files/lux-z-radio_luxembourg_c1933.m3u No chime on this one - but it is very cool. The announcements are in both French and German. The song being played is called "Tune In." Here is a 1934 recording of the full song by the Jack Payne band that someone uploaded to YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=YzZikVcwaPU The song's lyrics and the image files the person uploaded into the video clip give a glimpse at an age when when radio and the technology behind it still had a "magic" and mystique that has largely faded away over the decades.

The closest thing to radio chimes I am aware of here in the Metroplex back during the "Golden Era" apart, of course, from the national NBC chimes was the cowbell that WBAP used when it signed on for its turn on the frequencies it shared with WFAA. I have always wondered if that bell is still in the possession of WBAP. If so, it would be really cool if they brought it back. Probably wouldn't go over well as an actual station ID anymore. But they could certainly incorporate it into occasional spots they could run at odd moments discussing the station's rich heritage.
 
[/quote]

Holy Cow. I feel like I'm reading the script of the movie Contact. This thread is way above my head, but I feel like if I ask the question of how to contact aliens, I would probably get the answer.
[/quote]

Well...since you brought it up...if one possessed a receiver capable of tuning 608 to 614 Mhz. you might just FIND the aliens. Ever wonder why there is no TV-37 ANYWHERE? 608 - 614 Mhz. is where TV-37 would otherwise be...if one were to exist. "Officially" that spectrum is set aside by FCC rules, allocated to the "Radio Astronomy" service. But years ago when SETI was a government project, that's supposedly where the "Contact" was first made. To this day, 608 - 614 Mhz. is strictly off limits to TV, wireless microphones, or any other transmitting RF device. Other than listening to the heavens at a few facilities (like the VLA in Arizona as seen in the movie "Contact" and few others), the ONLY exception to the no-use rule? Internally implanted "medical devices", completely contained inside the human body.

Remember all the stories of alien abductions...and the reports of being "probed?" Just sayin.... :)
 
317C50KW said:
It's nice to know Mike has a nice radio though!
Believe it or not, paid $1.91 at the thrift store for it last week. Sometimes you just get lucky!

And thanks to all for the detailed explanations. WHEW!! I had no idea. I was about to write it off to magic.
 
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