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80's on Tampa's Point - how do they stay so steady?

S

szorn

Guest
It seems most 80's stations are either gone or floundering. What keeps this particular 80's station in Tampa steady in the upper 2 range for that market? What do they do to keep their ratings from going south? What can other 80's stations learn from them? I still think a well-programmed 80's station would fair better than all these JACK formats that seem to be tanking in the big cities. Thoughts?<P ID="edit"><FONT class="small">Edited by Z on 03/04/06 10:20 PM.</FONT></P>
 
> It seems most 80's stations are either gone or floundering.
> What keeps this particular 80's station in Tampa steady in
> the upper 2 range for that market? What do they do to keep
> their ratings from going south? What can other 80's
> stations learn from them? I still think a well-programmed
> 80's station would fair better than all these JACK formats
> that seem to be tanking in the big cities. Thoughts?
>
Probably the same reason why WDUV stays at number 1 in Tampa.<P ID="signature">______________

</P>
 
> >
> Probably the same reason why WDUV stays at number 1 in
> Tampa.
>

Jeremy is probably right. The average age in the Tampa Bay market is older then that of nearby Orlando, and definitely moreso then Miami as well.
There's really nothing special or unique about The Point. It's not really custom mixed for Tampa, just like most Jack FM stations aren't taylor made for their markets either.
The Jack FM stations are likely taking a chunk out of everybody - upper end of the Top 40 audience, part of the Hot AC listeners, and some of the Country and Classic Rock listeners too. That's also probably the main reason why the Jack FM stations lean heavily on white-bread Rock hits. Whats's cool about Jack FM though is the other day I heard Information Society "What's On Your Mind (Pure Energy)" into Soundgarden "I Am A highway" on Nashville's Jack FM.
 
> It seems most 80's stations are either gone or floundering.
> What keeps this particular 80's station in Tampa steady in
> the upper 2 range for that market? What do they do to keep
> their ratings from going south? What can other 80's
> stations learn from them? I still think a well-programmed
> 80's station would fair better than all these JACK formats
> that seem to be tanking in the big cities. Thoughts?
>


If JACK came to Tampa, it would do major damage to the POINT. That's what happened here in Las Vegas, JACK is currently #3 25-54, while the 80s station KSTJ tanked shotly after JACK hit the market and has not recovered.
 
> It seems most 80's stations are either gone or floundering.
> What keeps this particular 80's station in Tampa steady in
> the upper 2 range for that market? What do they do to keep
> their ratings from going south? What can other 80's
> stations learn from them? I still think a well-programmed
> 80's station would fair better than all these JACK formats
> that seem to be tanking in the big cities. Thoughts?
>
What an enigma. We, too, have a Point in Houston. 106.9 The Point is probably the WORST 80's station in the country, yet we can't seem to get rid of it. Consistently has a 1 share, and jocks with absolutely no personality. Every DJ says the same line every time they break from "another long set of 80's music". "For the song title and artist of every song they play, visit one oh six nine the point dot com, and stay tuned for another long set of 80's music next on 106.9 The Point." It was repetitious 2 years ago. Now it's just assinine that it has been left on the air this long. I guess that's what happens when there is no one employed in the market to bury the corpse. Cox has 4 stations here in Houston, and none of them are really worth a preset on the radio. <P ID="signature">______________
You can't kill rock-n-roll, it's here to stay
R.I.P. KEGL-Dallas & KLOL-Houston</P>
 
> > >
> > Probably the same reason why WDUV stays at number 1 in
> > Tampa.
> >
>
> Jeremy is probably right. The average age in the Tampa Bay
> market is older then that of nearby Orlando, and definitely
> moreso then Miami as well.
> There's really nothing special or unique about The Point.
> It's not really custom mixed for Tampa, just like most Jack
> FM stations aren't taylor made for their markets either.
> The Jack FM stations are likely taking a chunk out of
> everybody - upper end of the Top 40 audience, part of the
> Hot AC listeners, and some of the Country and Classic Rock
> listeners too. That's also probably the main reason why the
> Jack FM stations lean heavily on white-bread Rock hits.
> Whats's cool about Jack FM though is the other day I heard
> Information Society "What's On Your Mind (Pure Energy)" into
> Soundgarden "I Am A highway" on Nashville's Jack FM.

At least with Jack-FM, you get a little bit of variety from all of the genres that makeup (and madeup) the CHR format...rock, hairbands, new wave/alternative, pop/dance, some hip-hop, and bubblegum that's accepted by the masses. Cox's '80s Point brand would be a lot more successful if they used a similar formula with programming their format, IMO. Just about every time I tune into 95.7 The Point in Dayton, it's the same old stale 80s rock/new wave songs played over and over again. Don't get me wrong...I love 80s rock, but there were so many more hits from the 80s that could be added into the playlist...huge hits...from artists that the Point doesn't even touch from the pop/dance and hip-hop genres. It seems that hearing the same songs in rotation over and over again with a small playlist would burn out the average listener and cause them to tune out. The Point in Dayton hovers, on average, just above a 1 share 12+.

I don't know about the other markets where Cox has a Point station, but in Dayton, their radio group is being anchored by a country station that almost always tops the ratings, K 99.1FM. From what I've been told, they use their Point as a way to flank the crosstown hot AC station in order to protect K 99 from being beat out as the top station in several demos. The same practice is supposedly being used by Cox to flank crosstown classic rocker, WTUE, with The Point's classic hits (formerly classic rock) sister, 95.3 The Eagle.

As far as the jocks go, I've been told that some Cox stations utilize a liner card system where the jocks read a series preassembled phrases in order to construct their talk breaks. The jock can choose what phrases they can say, but the overall presentation from jock to jock is exactly the same so they bring about a uniform sound throughout the day. That may explain the uniqueness problems with stations such as The Point, but at the same time, may explain the success of stations such as The Dove in Tampa.
 
I wouldn't see a reason for Dayton's Point to play hip-hop from the 80s to a white audience..the 80s was the time of the disco backlash. Cox will only do short playlists no matter what the format, but it seems to have changed from the days of "all U2, all the time" (seems like every time I tuned in I heard "New Years Day"). (The day after the flip to The Eagle on 95.3, I flipped them on three times and al three times they were playing Elton John.)<P ID="signature">______________
"You're right to know supersedes your right to exist"..Gary Burbank</P>
 
> I wouldn't see a reason for Dayton's Point to play hip-hop
> from the 80s to a white audience..the 80s was the time of
> the disco backlash. Cox will only do short playlists no
> matter what the format, but it seems to have changed from
> the days of "all U2, all the time" (seems like every time I
> tuned in I heard "New Years Day"). (The day after the flip
> to The Eagle on 95.3, I flipped them on three times and al
> three times they were playing Elton John.)
>

I'm talking about the pop-friendly hip-hop/urban music that you've heard on Z-93 back in the 80s...like "Walk this Way" by Run-DMC, "Every Little Step" by Bobby Brown, etc. I'm not saying they should have this music in heavy rotation or anything, but in there enough to keep the playlist a little fresh in the very least.

You're right, though. The Point certainly has a little bit more variety than it used to. I, too, heard nothing but a U2 (the song I heard a lot was "Pride in the Name of Love") and The Talking Heads' "Once in a Lifetime." Great songs, but so overplayed that I can stand not hearing them for another 4 or 5 years.
 
> I'm talking about the pop-friendly hip-hop/urban music that
> you've heard on Z-93 back in the 80s...like "Walk this Way"
> by Run-DMC, "Every Little Step" by Bobby Brown, etc. I'm
> not saying they should have this music in heavy rotation or
> anything, but in there enough to keep the playlist a little
> fresh in the very least.
>
> You're right, though. The Point certainly has a little bit
> more variety than it used to. I, too, heard nothing but a
> U2 (the song I heard a lot was "Pride in the Name of Love")
> and The Talking Heads' "Once in a Lifetime." Great songs,
> but so overplayed that I can stand not hearing them for
> another 4 or 5 years.
>


If somebody would put on an 80's station mirroring Jeffery T. Mason's "80snow.com", I think the format would not only stay steady but probably rise quite a bit in the ratings. It's amazing how nobody tries this!
 
> > I'm talking about the pop-friendly hip-hop/urban music
> that
> > you've heard on Z-93 back in the 80s...like "Walk this
> Way"
> > by Run-DMC, "Every Little Step" by Bobby Brown, etc. I'm
> > not saying they should have this music in heavy rotation
> or
> > anything, but in there enough to keep the playlist a
> little
> > fresh in the very least.
> >
> > You're right, though. The Point certainly has a little
> bit
> > more variety than it used to. I, too, heard nothing but a
>
> > U2 (the song I heard a lot was "Pride in the Name of
> Love")
> > and The Talking Heads' "Once in a Lifetime." Great songs,
>
> > but so overplayed that I can stand not hearing them for
> > another 4 or 5 years.
> >
>
>
> If somebody would put on an 80's station mirroring Jeffery
> T. Mason's "80snow.com", I think the format would not only
> stay steady but probably rise quite a bit in the ratings.
> It's amazing how nobody tries this!
>

From what I understand, music tests showed that people didn't take well to mainstream 80s pop, which is the reason why 99% of all 80s stations that were created had a rock lean. I grew up in the 80s and loved all the music, but hearing just the hair bands and new wave hits without Madonna, Michael Jackson, Paula Abdul, and the many one-hit wonders of that time never worked for me or many of my friends who loved the music from that era as well.

IMO, the first two commercial all-80s stations in the country were the best and were right on target in terms of music. Those stations were WXXY in Chicago and WXST (Star 107.9) in Columbus, Ohio. Very pop-based and imaged very closely to how 80s stations sounded back in the day. It's just too bad those stations were on fringe signals and went away.
 
> From what I understand, music tests showed that people
> didn't take well to mainstream 80s pop, which is the reason
> why 99% of all 80s stations that were created had a rock
> lean. I grew up in the 80s and loved all the music, but
> hearing just the hair bands and new wave hits without
> Madonna, Michael Jackson, Paula Abdul, and the many one-hit
> wonders of that time never worked for me or many of my
> friends who loved the music from that era as well.
>
> IMO, the first two commercial all-80s stations in the
> country were the best and were right on target in terms of
> music. Those stations were WXXY in Chicago and WXST (Star
> 107.9) in Columbus, Ohio. Very pop-based and imaged very
> closely to how 80s stations sounded back in the day. It's
> just too bad those stations were on fringe signals and went
> away.
>

I completely agree on those stations. They were great! Both streamed online and captured the "feel" of the 80's CHR scene and atmosphere. Cox could take notes.
 
> I completely agree on those stations. They were great!
> Both streamed online and captured the "feel" of the 80's CHR
> scene and atmosphere. Cox could take notes.

The problem, as has already been stated, is that the pop hits, with relatively few exceptions, no longer test positive in research. New Wave songs still do.

The softer 80s songs are still overplayed to death on ACs, too.<P ID="signature">______________


</P>
 
> > I completely agree on those stations. They were great!
> > Both streamed online and captured the "feel" of the 80's
> CHR
> > scene and atmosphere. Cox could take notes.
>
> The problem, as has already been stated, is that the pop
> hits, with relatively few exceptions, no longer test
> positive in research. New Wave songs still do.
>
> The softer 80s songs are still overplayed to death on ACs,
> too.
>


The problem is: testing and research. Testing and research has taken the fun out of radio. Test and research on the fly. Play the hits, adjust where needed and take REAL feedback from REAL listeners. Take our Q-96. It play hits, but has added tons of dance music that hasn't been researched or tested in our area. The PD just plays them and then hears from his listeners, THEN he adjusts the playlist. This is why radio pretty much sucks today. Pretty dull and predictable. That's the real problem.
 
> The problem is: testing and research. Testing and research
> has taken the fun out of radio. Test and research on the
> fly. Play the hits, adjust where needed and take REAL
> feedback from REAL listeners. Take our Q-96. It play hits,
> but has added tons of dance music that hasn't been
> researched or tested in our area. The PD just plays them
> and then hears from his listeners, THEN he adjusts the
> playlist.

While that *might* be a rationale for adding new music (it seems a bit risky to me), older songs do wear after a while.

I'll give you an example from some research I did within the past year:
"Mickey" by Toni Basil annoyed virtually every person, but "Everybody Wants to Rule the World" by Tears for Fears was a positive with everyone.

Both were #1 on Billboard when they were current, but only one of the two does not carry the risk of listener tune-out.

> This is why radio pretty much sucks today. Pretty dull and
> predictable. That's the real problem.

The only people who make that complaint are people who post on message boards like this one. None of us are the average radio listener, and radio doesn't program to us, they program to the average listeners.

The average listener actually wants "predictable". They want the emotional reassurance that their favorite station will consistently give them the same music they are accustomed to. <P ID="signature">______________


</P>
 
> Probably the same reason why WDUV stays at number 1 in
> Tampa.

And what IS that reason?
 
Tis true. We are radio geeks. I still think research can be too narrowly focused. I hate it when a small minority gets their "way". Let the larger audience decide on the fly. Risky? Sure. But fun radio and evolving radio instead of cookie cutter. But we analyze too much here, agreed.
 
> The only people who make that complaint are people who post
> on message boards like this one. None of us are the average
> radio listener, and radio doesn't program to us, they
> program to the average listeners.
>
> The average listener actually wants "predictable". They
> want the emotional reassurance that their favorite station
> will consistently give them the same music they are
> accustomed to.
>
I find that statement completely inaccurate. As an average listener, and having never worked in radio, the last thing I want to hear from any broadcast is the same 50 songs over and over again. I would love to hear one station, any station in this market, step out of the box and go free form with their playlist. The above statement is exactly why terrestrial radio is losing listeners by the droves and are "programming" their own music with iPods and Mp3's. Those that are in radio, forgot what it's like to be on the other side of the broadcast, and think they know what everyone wants to hear. If someone would take the time to actually listen to our feedback, radio would not be as outdated, and overlooked as it is today. Congratulations. This is one of the reasons that the top station in any given market used to pull a 10+ share, but now most have trouble breaking a 6 to earn the top spot.<P ID="signature">______________
You can't kill rock-n-roll, it's here to stay
R.I.P. KEGL-Dallas & KLOL-Houston</P>
 
> Those
> that are in radio, forgot what it's like to be on the other
> side of the broadcast, and think they know what everyone
> wants to hear. If someone would take the time to actually
> listen to our feedback, radio would not be as outdated, and
> overlooked as it is today.

This is why we do research and focus groups: Because that is how we find out what listeners want to hear.

It sounds to me, from the way you speak, that you are atypical. You appear to be someone who listens for hours at a time. The average listener doesn't. For the majority, who listen for 20 to 30 minutes at a time (and by that, I mean actively listening), a smaller playlist comprised of familiar titles works better.

There are documented instances of stations competing with the same format, and the station playing more titles lost, because inevitably having too broad a playlist will mean including many titles that will turn away large numbers of listeners. Even with positioning statements that attempt to turn those positives into negatives ("a bigger variety of music", etc.) the net effect is to drive people over to the smaller playlist station when one of those songs plays.

The only way to <u>slightly</u> broaden a playlist is to take the songs that tested neutral (not overwhelmingly positive, but with no significant negative) and sprinkle them in as accents. Nevertheless, this still requires that the core playlist have the high turnover titles. For a gold-based format, I would never go longer than 1½ to 2 days on the best-testing songs. In some cases, it may be justifiable for those titles to play a couple of times in a 24-hour period.

I'm sure David E. will elaborate further.<P ID="signature">______________


</P>
 
> This is one of
> the reasons that the top station in any given market used to
> pull a 10+ share, but now most have trouble breaking a 6 to
> earn the top spot.
>
I'm sure WSM had like a 90 share in Tennesee in 1930.

This is 2006, and there isn't one dominant station anymore. Most major markets have at least one strong AM and 6 full-market FMs. Add in lesser AMs, rimshots, and so forth, and the general increase in the number of stations since 1980, and you have the the real reason why the arbitron shares for any given station are lower.

I don't disagree that there are programming mistakes being made, but that doesn't affect any one station or company, but radio in general -- there are exceptional stations.
 
> >
> > The average listener actually wants "predictable". They
> > want the emotional reassurance that their favorite station
> > will consistently give them the same music they are
> > accustomed to.
> >
> I find that statement completely inaccurate.

The statment would better have been, "listeners want, above all, familiarity." In addion, they want the station they tune to to meet thier expdectations... no surprises and a variety of the music they know and like.

> As an average
> listener, and having never worked in radio, the last thing I
> want to hear from any broadcast is the same 50 songs over
> and over again.

Even a CHR does not play 50 songs. I know you used that number to emphasie what you see as short lists, the fact is that listeners do nto want long lists. They want lists of good songs they like. Seldom do these go over 100 songs in youth staitons, and 300 songs in 25+ adult stations.

> I would love to hear one station, any
> station in this market, step out of the box and go free form
> with their playlist.

Most of us who have been in programming for a while have wanted to do this. the result was always a "learning exerience" and we were lucky if it did not cost us our jobs. It does not work. Ever.

> The above statement is exactly why
> terrestrial radio is losing listeners by the droves and are
> "programming" their own music with iPods and Mp3's.

Radio's cume in 18-54 is within about 2% of its 40-year high in Arbitron, so the idea that listeners are leaving in droves is inaccurate. In fact, surveys show that the average iPod user has about 300 favorite songs on it... not thousands.

> Those
> that are in radio, forgot what it's like to be on the other
> side of the broadcast, and think they know what everyone
> wants to hear.

This is why we spend, at larger market stations, hundreds of thosuands of dollars a year in proprietary music and perceptual research because we are not listeners. We design a product for listeners based on their input.

> If someone would take the time to actually
> listen to our feedback, radio would not be as outdated, and
> overlooked as it is today.

You are an exception. In research, we look for the range where 80% to 90% of potential listeners fall, and exclude those that are at the "radical" fringe because they do not represent the mainstream and, to win them, we would lose the core.

> Congratulations. This is one of
> the reasons that the top station in any given market used to
> pull a 10+ share, but now most have trouble breaking a 6 to
> earn the top spot.

The reason for that is not what you say. However the shares are divided does not indicate more or less listening. It indicates how individual staitons are divided.

The reasons are that the lower rated stations are now learning how to take and hold a smaller hill, and increasing share, making all staitons closer in rank. In LA, for example, we had a 10 share around 1990. But there were many FMs with 1 to 2 shares. Now, the shares on the low rated staitons are 2 to 3, and the top ones are 3 to th low 4's. There are still 100 shares, redistributed among more, and better, stations.

Share is a percentage of raido listeners. There are always 100 shares, whether there are 10 people or 10 million listening. More competitive secondary stations have redistributed the same 100 shares.

Overall, listening is still at the same general level in sales demos it has been for 4 decades.
>
 
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