8200 vs. DSP-X products

[KRXOEngineer]

Gentlemen,

If you were on a budget project for a small-market FM, what proccesor would you use? Would a used 8200 or the BW stuff be a better? I noticed BW has several different models ranging from under 2k to almost 7k. Has anyone had much experience with these diffent models and their differences? I read though the earlier posts about processing, but I thought I'd start another thread to get a clearer take on these specific subjects.

Thanks in advance!

 

[1290wgli]

> Gentlemen,
>
> If you were on a budget project for a small-market FM, what
> proccesor would you use? Would a used 8200 or the BW stuff
> be a better? I noticed BW has several different models
> ranging from under 2k to almost 7k. Has anyone had much
> experience with these diffent models and their differences?
> I read though the earlier posts about processing, but I
> thought I'd start another thread to get a clearer take on
> these specific subjects.
>
> Thanks in advance!
>

W/O getting into it, all CURRENT digital audio processors on the market (Orban, Omnia, BW) are better than the 8200. The 8200 is built on 15 year old technology.

 

[westlife]

> W/O getting into it, all CURRENT digital audio processors on
> the market (Orban, Omnia, BW) are better than the 8200. The
> 8200 is built on 15 year old technology.

Some *analog* processors are better than it, too.

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[SamBuca]

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[KRXOEngineer]

> > W/O getting into it, all CURRENT digital audio processors
> on
> > the market (Orban, Omnia, BW) are better than the 8200.
> The
> > 8200 is built on 15 year old technology.
>
> Some *analog* processors are better than it, too.
>

OK.. The next question I have is does the more expensive BW product offer much more appriciable improvement in audio quality than the 3k box? From what I have read off their site, it offers more bands and more "distortion reduction". Is it worth the 3k in the real world? Are there any of you guys that have used the more expensive version yet?

Thanks for the help!

 

[tpt]

The key word here is "budget." As in "most bang for the limited bucks."

I would go with the Omnia 3 turbo at around 3K over either the used 8200 (15 year old technology, as noted) or the DSP unit. (Hi Frank!)

I have not been impressed by the sound of the few 8200's I've heard, and digital technology has progressed considerably since it was made.

Both the Omnia and Orban boxes are designed for diffiult locations (your transmitter shack) and both companies have been in the business for many years.

However, Orban does not have a unit available now (as far as I know) that matches the price/feature combination available with the Omnia 3.

If they did, it would become a Ford vs. Chevy comparison, with the DSP unit representing the Kia or Hyundai side of the equation.

 

[oldiesstation]

> > > W/O getting into it, all CURRENT digital audio
> processors
> > on
> > > the market (Orban, Omnia, BW) are better than the 8200.
>
> > The
> > > 8200 is built on 15 year old technology.
> >
> > Some *analog* processors are better than it, too.
> >
>
> OK.. The next question I have is does the more expensive BW
> product offer much more appriciable improvement in audio
> quality than the 3k box? From what I have read off their
> site, it offers more bands and more "distortion reduction".
> Is it worth the 3k in the real world? Are there any of you
> guys that have used the more expensive version yet?
>
> Thanks for the help!
> THE DSP-X is a great unit, but the dsp-xtra give you the new araine built in and is is worth the money if you can afford it..the extra jumps up in the class of the omnia 6 for half the price of the 6.and yes i am running the dsp-extra now..unbelieveable sound...

 

[cranium]

If I had to put together an audio chain on a budget, I would go with the dsp-xtra.

Or, try to find a used Omnia-FM. I don't know much about the Omnia 3 Turbo. I didn't care for the sound of an early Omnia 3.

I don't think the 8200's are THAT bad. They're not that good, either.

 

[1290wgli]

> The key word here is "budget." As in "most bang for the
> limited bucks."
> I would go with the Omnia 3 turbo at around 3K over either
> the used 8200 (15 year old technology, as noted) or the DSP
> unit. (Hi Frank!)
> If they did, it would become a Ford vs. Chevy comparison,
> with the DSP unit representing the Kia or Hyundai side of
> the equation.
>

Actually, the DSP-X is like more like Toyota . I don't want to get into a war here, but I have run the O3 Turbo vs the DSP-X. While they both perform well with jazz/classical and other fine arts programming, when it's time to get agressive (CHR/Oldies/Hot AC/Rock), it's DSP-X time. This is not just my opinion, it is also the opinion of 4 other engineers who have heard both.

The O3 could not be as loud and clean, I'm sorry. The DSP-X has a multiband clipper vs the wideband clipper in the O3. There is a big difference when trying to get voice AND music sound as clean as possible. Also, the jump from 3 to 4 bands of processing in the peak limiter, IMHO, is a big difference, especially when you can split the low and low-mid to create what I feel is better definition in your bass.

Also, the O3 is not ready for HD radio and costs anywhere from $1000-$1500 more. The DSP-X does have a digital look ahead limiter on its HD output and remote control ability. It also allows the user more controls to fine tune the sound. For $3000, it doesn't get any better. I know of more than a few stations that are using DSP-X and have had no problems, including some pretty demanding ones where multipath WAS a problem and clean audio is a must.

So much for no war. For me, the O3 was a good product that built on what Orban started with the 2200 (good, cheap processing). After a good 5 years of having the O3 as the best cost-effective processor, the DSP-X has surpassed it (and even surpasses the 2 band 2300). Perhaps Frank will raise the bar again with a new low-cost offering.

Pandora's box is open.

 

[dspxscott]

Don't forget the DSPXmini. IMHO it also beats O3T. It's not as clean as DSPX due to less distortion cancellation techniques but IMO it is more consistent, mainly down to the wideband and multi-band AGC's being replaced with an extended range 4 band input AGC.
I forget to mention its only $1700. The downside is it can only be used on analog FM.
More information on it can be viewed at
www.dsp-x.com/DSPX-RANGE-BROCHURE.pdf
Best regards
Scott

 

[Powell]

> If I had to put together an audio chain on a budget, I would
> go with the dsp-xtra.

> Or, try to find a used Omnia-FM. I don't know much about the
> Omnia 3 Turbo. I didn't care for the sound of an early Omnia
> 3.

> I don't think the 8200's are THAT bad. They're not that
> good, either.


And don't forget being 15 years old the 8200 could have or be getting ready to have bad electrolytic capacitors....





Powell


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[KRXOEngineer]

> > If I had to put together an audio chain on a budget, I
> would
> > go with the dsp-xtra.
>
> > Or, try to find a used Omnia-FM. I don't know much about
> the
> > Omnia 3 Turbo. I didn't care for the sound of an early
> Omnia
> > 3.
>
> > I don't think the 8200's are THAT bad. They're not that
> > good, either.
>
>
> And don't forget being 15 years old the 8200 could have or
> be getting ready to have bad electrolytic capacitors....
>
>
>
>
>
> Powell
>

KRXO, the station I normally work at, has an 8200 that we are "happy" with. However, when music becomes more complex, so to speak, I can hear it having a hard time effectively keeping up, creating a bit of grunge that the 8400 on one of our stations doesn't have, on similar passages. Otherwise, I am "happy" with the sound of a 8200. Familiarity probably makes me feel safer with a 8200, however, since the technology has improved fairly radically, it might be in the best intrest of the contract station to try the BW stuff and just see how it works. Appearently most on here seem to agree that most any of the major players' newer stuff would be a better solution than the older 8200. I think the Omnia stuff is ok, however, my thoughts on their products are, in general, they are made for producing more loudness that clean audio. In the market I am needing processing for, I would prefer cleaner audio. At this point, I am thinking about recommending a test-drive of one of the BW products when the time comes. I appreciate the input from everyone and look foward to hearing further comments on the subject.

 

[westlife]

DSP-X for AM?

> More information on it can be viewed at
> www.dsp-x.com/DSPX-RANGE-BROCHURE.pdf
> Best regards
> Scott

BTW, is there any hope for the long-awaited AM version of the DSP-X? Orban will be releasing their new Optimod-AM 9400 in January 2006... it would be nice if you had something with similar capabilities (hopefully including full matrix processing for C-Quam AM Stereo, which the 9400 unfortunately does not) at a more affordable price -- i.e. at or below the cost of the entry-level CRL Amigo AM.
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[Chuck]

In the market I am needing processing for, I
> would prefer cleaner audio. At this point, I am thinking
> about recommending a test-drive of one of the BW products
> when the time comes. I appreciate the input from everyone
> and look foward to hearing further comments on the subject.
>

We have one of the very first DSP-X processors. It's SN 004, and it's been running without a hitch for about two years. I'd recommend it to anyone, but that's not to say that other processors aren't worthy competitors. I'd love to have one of the new full blown versions but I just don't see that it would make economic sense for out station. Your circumstances may be (and probably are) a lot different.

We went on the air on an extreme budget, and initially used an Orban 8000a before switching to the DSP-X. The DSP-X was a HUGE improvement. We really don't need the extra audio outputs that are available on the original version. The new inexpensive version would probably serve us just as well. When compared with other similarly priced procesors, like the Inovonics David III, the DPS-X is an excellent value.

 

[gtomas]

> KRXO, the station I normally work at, has an 8200 that we
> are "happy" with. However, when music becomes more complex,
> so to speak, I can hear it having a hard time effectively
> keeping up, creating a bit of grunge that the 8400 on one of
> our stations doesn't have, on similar passages. Otherwise,
> I am "happy" with the sound of a 8200. Familiarity probably
> makes me feel safer with a 8200, however, since the
> technology has improved fairly radically, it might be in the
> best intrest of the contract station to try the BW stuff and
> just see how it works.

Since you seem to be accustomed to Orban and like their sound, you might consider Orban 5300 which retails at $6490. It's not as loud as 8400, but it's better than 8200 for sure.

But I wouldn't miss the opportunity to try DSPeXtra. I haven't heard it yet, but I've heard DSPX and since eXtra packs a lot more good stuff under the lid, it certainly promises a lot!


Regards,
Goran Tomas

 

[RadioDoc]

I think you ought to at least give the Omnia 3 a try. I'm an overt Orban fan, but I used an Omnia 3.fm at a classic hits station, and it was unbelievably clean and easy to listen to, while still competitive.

What I haven't seen yet is anyone advising you to try them all! You can get 15 day "demos" of all those boxes, so you can hear them first hand. Processing is so subjective...plus there's the comfort level. I like 8400/8500 better than the Omnia 6. Is the Orban box better? Probably not substantially, but it sounds great on my stations, and I can get them to do everything short of cook breakfast. I have a close friend of mine who loves Omnia and thinks I need my head examined! OTOH, I would have no trouble demoing or using an Omnia or DSP-X if it fit the needs/budget of the station.

Orban and Telos (Omnia) have budget boxes. Find out what the budget is, and sample Omnia, Orban, and DSP-X on YOUR station with YOUR format.

At the end of the trial, you'll know which way to go!<P ID="signature">______________
</P>

 

[DudeFan]

> > If I had to put together an audio chain on a budget, I
> would
> > go with the dsp-xtra.
>
> > Or, try to find a used Omnia-FM. I don't know much about
> the
> > Omnia 3 Turbo. I didn't care for the sound of an early
> Omnia
> > 3.
>
> > I don't think the 8200's are THAT bad. They're not that
> > good, either.
>
>
> And don't forget being 15 years old the 8200 could have or
> be getting ready to have bad electrolytic capacitors....

The 8200 was great for its day, if the choice was between an 8100 barefoot or an 8200.

Powell, I think, knows I am running an O3T, but its not barefoot, either (see below posts). I am on the fence about turning down the clipper, though. I like the loudness, but voices do tend to distort a bit. The handy feature that I like on the Omnia is being able to reduce the stereo separation to get a little more ooompht.

I am looking forward to demoing an DSPXtra and the new Orbans after the first of the year.

 

[FFoti]

> I think the Omnia stuff is ok, however, my thoughts on their products are, in
> general, they are made for producing more loudness than clean audio.

Let's think on this a bit...If the box is capable of creating good loudness, then with some adjusting and finess, it can be setup for good quality too. Although the opposite is not always true; processors that are made for quality, usually cannot create acceptable loudness.

-Frank Foti

 

[westlife]

The definitive list!

Everyone seems to be arguing over what the best "budget" FM audio processor is, so here is the list of what you currently have to choose from; I define "budget" to be anything less than $5000.

$995.00 Hnat-Hindes Ultramod UM2000
$1748.25 DSPXmini
$1895.00 Hnat-Hindes Ultramod FM
$2000.00 Inovonics 716 David II
$2200.00 Inovonics 718 David III
$2995.00 CRL Amigo FM
$2995.00 Omnia-3fm Turbo (factory special price)
$3015.00 Orban Optimod-FM 2200 (BSW special price)
$3316.25 DSPX
$4499.00 Inovonics Omega FM (BSW special price)
$4898.25 DSPXmini + Ariane Sequel
$4950.00 Orban Optimod-FM 2300

All prices are factory list except where noted. All processors include at least AGC, limiting, clipping, lowpass filtering, and stereo generation -- the basic stuff you need to put a legally-modulated FM Stereo signal on the air.
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[HOMEYD]

> Gentlemen,
>
> If you were on a budget project for a small-market FM, what
> proccesor would you use? Would a used 8200 or the BW stuff
> be a better? I noticed BW has several different models
> ranging from under 2k to almost 7k. Has anyone had much
> experience with these diffent models and their differences?
> I read though the earlier posts about processing, but I
> thought I'd start another thread to get a clearer take on
> these specific subjects.
>
> Thanks in advance!
>

Going against the grain of this thread. I have several 8200's
that sound great and are kicking butt. The key is taking the time
to find and work the sweet spots of this box. Not the factory presets.

As far as the DSP-X boxes. I haven't had the opportunity to hear
one in action yet.
They may be great boxes, but it seems that there are two or three
of the same guys cheerleading them on all the lists.
Their enthusiasm makes me wonder if they actually BOUGHT them or have them GRATIS from the company. This may sometime alter the perspective.

Either way, if I was in a small market and could pick up an 8200
for let's say 1K to 1.5K that's the way I would go.

And if I had 3K to spend. I would try one of the DSP-X boxes
and a Omnia 3FMT and see which I liked best.