I'm thinking perhaps someone like Radio Doc might have an answer to my question. As has been stated, in the next few years, all analogue TV signals will be converted to digital HD. That includes all the channel Sixs around the country. And, as we know, these channels all match up with 87.7 on the FM dial. So, once these stations are converted, can or will the 87.7 frequencies be used for FM stations? Thanks.
-
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87.7 FM question.
- Thread starter StevenGastreich
- Start date
W
wernerradio
Guest
> I'm thinking perhaps someone like Radio Doc might have an
> answer to my question. As has been stated, in the next few
> years, all analogue TV signals will be converted to digital
> HD. That includes all the channel Sixs around the country.
> And, as we know, these channels all match up with 87.7 on
> the FM dial. So, once these stations are converted, can or
> will the 87.7 frequencies be used for FM stations? Thanks.
>
Yes they can be used for FM station. In fact, channels 5 and 6 are right below the FM band, using (correct me if I'm wrong) 76MHz-87.9MHz. This could all be added to the FM band. It won't happen, the FCC would make tons more money if the auction off the space to some corporation...<P ID="signature">______________
Joshua Werner
http://www.wisconsinbroadcasting.com
90.3 WRST-FM Oshkosh
Station Manager & Webmaster
http://www.uwosh.edu/wrst
[email protected]</P>
> answer to my question. As has been stated, in the next few
> years, all analogue TV signals will be converted to digital
> HD. That includes all the channel Sixs around the country.
> And, as we know, these channels all match up with 87.7 on
> the FM dial. So, once these stations are converted, can or
> will the 87.7 frequencies be used for FM stations? Thanks.
>
Yes they can be used for FM station. In fact, channels 5 and 6 are right below the FM band, using (correct me if I'm wrong) 76MHz-87.9MHz. This could all be added to the FM band. It won't happen, the FCC would make tons more money if the auction off the space to some corporation...<P ID="signature">______________
Joshua Werner
http://www.wisconsinbroadcasting.com
90.3 WRST-FM Oshkosh
Station Manager & Webmaster
http://www.uwosh.edu/wrst
[email protected]</P>
> I'm thinking perhaps someone like Radio Doc might have an
> answer to my question. As has been stated, in the next few
> years, all analogue TV signals will be converted to digital
> HD. That includes all the channel Sixs around the country.
> And, as we know, these channels all match up with 87.7 on
> the FM dial. So, once these stations are converted, can or
> will the 87.7 frequencies be used for FM stations? Thanks.
>
Are you asking if your FM radio will still pick up audio from Channel 6? I'm also curious if that will be the case.
> answer to my question. As has been stated, in the next few
> years, all analogue TV signals will be converted to digital
> HD. That includes all the channel Sixs around the country.
> And, as we know, these channels all match up with 87.7 on
> the FM dial. So, once these stations are converted, can or
> will the 87.7 frequencies be used for FM stations? Thanks.
>
Are you asking if your FM radio will still pick up audio from Channel 6? I'm also curious if that will be the case.
W
wernerradio
Guest
> Are you asking if your FM radio will still pick up audio
> from Channel 6? I'm also curious if that will be the case.
>
I'm totally guessing here, but I don't think it would, since the digital station can be split into 6 subchannels, the frequency arrangment for the channel 6 would be different?
Anyway I don't think that there will be any (maybe a few) stations that are digital in this range. <P ID="signature">______________
Joshua Werner
http://www.wisconsinbroadcasting.com
90.3 WRST-FM Oshkosh
Station Manager & Webmaster
http://www.uwosh.edu/wrst
[email protected]</P>
> from Channel 6? I'm also curious if that will be the case.
>
I'm totally guessing here, but I don't think it would, since the digital station can be split into 6 subchannels, the frequency arrangment for the channel 6 would be different?
Anyway I don't think that there will be any (maybe a few) stations that are digital in this range. <P ID="signature">______________
Joshua Werner
http://www.wisconsinbroadcasting.com
90.3 WRST-FM Oshkosh
Station Manager & Webmaster
http://www.uwosh.edu/wrst
[email protected]</P>
> Are you asking if your FM radio will still pick up audio
> from Channel 6? I'm also curious if that will be the case.
No, I'm not asking that as 6 will have a digital rather than analog one. FM is based on analogue frequencies. So, I know that 87.7 will open up once the change to digital is made. So, my question was what would become of that frequency? On a related subject, I own an AM FM radio that picks up TV sound for channels 4, 6, 10 and 12. That will mean that I won't be able to sit out or walk around and listen to those signals. That is all I need as I am blind. Those days will end too.
>
> from Channel 6? I'm also curious if that will be the case.
No, I'm not asking that as 6 will have a digital rather than analog one. FM is based on analogue frequencies. So, I know that 87.7 will open up once the change to digital is made. So, my question was what would become of that frequency? On a related subject, I own an AM FM radio that picks up TV sound for channels 4, 6, 10 and 12. That will mean that I won't be able to sit out or walk around and listen to those signals. That is all I need as I am blind. Those days will end too.
>
The frequencies will be auctioned off to some sort of land mobile use, whether that be cell phones, fire, police, etc. Current channels 2-6 will be removed from the TV spectrum. The same will go for frequencies above (I believe) channel 60. Channels 71-83 were removed from TV some years back. .
The story of how HDTV came into being is just as politically charged as that of the early days of analog TV standards. It actually started when the FCC wanted to give parts of the unused TV spectrum to land mobile. The broadcasters were looking for a way to keep all of their spectrum, and although they didn't have much in the way of HDTV developed in the 80's, but used it as the excuse they needed. They wound up losing spectrum anyway as the Feds covet the revenue which can be generated by auctioning off those frequencies.
Oddly enough, the acting chief engineer for the FCC opined back in 1948 that channels 2-6 would go to land mobile use (as channel 1 had), with channels 7-13 used for low-definition B&W TV, and the UHF spectrum for high-definition color TV.
Whether or not the digital transition occurs on schedule is open to debate. RCA tried to set the de facto standards in 1940, and that led to the formation of the first NTSC. The second was formed in 1950 to recommend color standards. We've been operating under those rules ever since, and the switch will obsolete all receivers, making the purchase of new ones (or converters) necessary.
> > Are you asking if your FM radio will still pick up audio
> > from Channel 6? I'm also curious if that will be the case.
>
>
> No, I'm not asking that as 6 will have a digital rather than
> analog one. FM is based on analogue frequencies. So, I
> know that 87.7 will open up once the change to digital is
> made. So, my question was what would become of that
> frequency? On a related subject, I own an AM FM radio that
> picks up TV sound for channels 4, 6, 10 and 12. That will
> mean that I won't be able to sit out or walk around and
> listen to those signals. That is all I need as I am blind.
> Those days will end too.
> >
>
The story of how HDTV came into being is just as politically charged as that of the early days of analog TV standards. It actually started when the FCC wanted to give parts of the unused TV spectrum to land mobile. The broadcasters were looking for a way to keep all of their spectrum, and although they didn't have much in the way of HDTV developed in the 80's, but used it as the excuse they needed. They wound up losing spectrum anyway as the Feds covet the revenue which can be generated by auctioning off those frequencies.
Oddly enough, the acting chief engineer for the FCC opined back in 1948 that channels 2-6 would go to land mobile use (as channel 1 had), with channels 7-13 used for low-definition B&W TV, and the UHF spectrum for high-definition color TV.
Whether or not the digital transition occurs on schedule is open to debate. RCA tried to set the de facto standards in 1940, and that led to the formation of the first NTSC. The second was formed in 1950 to recommend color standards. We've been operating under those rules ever since, and the switch will obsolete all receivers, making the purchase of new ones (or converters) necessary.
> > Are you asking if your FM radio will still pick up audio
> > from Channel 6? I'm also curious if that will be the case.
>
>
> No, I'm not asking that as 6 will have a digital rather than
> analog one. FM is based on analogue frequencies. So, I
> know that 87.7 will open up once the change to digital is
> made. So, my question was what would become of that
> frequency? On a related subject, I own an AM FM radio that
> picks up TV sound for channels 4, 6, 10 and 12. That will
> mean that I won't be able to sit out or walk around and
> listen to those signals. That is all I need as I am blind.
> Those days will end too.
> >
>
When the TV stations have to turn off analog in favor of digital TV, which now seems to be December 31, 2009, you will no longer be able to hear the audio of any of the TV stations on an analog radio, like you can now. In the first round of digital TV assignments Milwaukee's WITI, now on analog 6 & digital 33, will end up on channel 33.
As for giving the frequencies to FM. I don't think the FCC will do that, because they would want to keep interference down for those digital TV stations that do get to be on channel 6.
> I'm thinking perhaps someone like Radio Doc might have an
> answer to my question. As has been stated, in the next few
> years, all analogue TV signals will be converted to digital
> HD. That includes all the channel Sixs around the country.
> And, as we know, these channels all match up with 87.7 on
> the FM dial. So, once these stations are converted, can or
> will the 87.7 frequencies be used for FM stations? Thanks.
> <P ID="signature">______________
DXer Peter Atkinson</P>
As for giving the frequencies to FM. I don't think the FCC will do that, because they would want to keep interference down for those digital TV stations that do get to be on channel 6.
> I'm thinking perhaps someone like Radio Doc might have an
> answer to my question. As has been stated, in the next few
> years, all analogue TV signals will be converted to digital
> HD. That includes all the channel Sixs around the country.
> And, as we know, these channels all match up with 87.7 on
> the FM dial. So, once these stations are converted, can or
> will the 87.7 frequencies be used for FM stations? Thanks.
> <P ID="signature">______________
DXer Peter Atkinson</P>
> > Are you asking if your FM radio will still pick up audio
> > from Channel 6? I'm also curious if that will be the case.
>
> >
>
> I'm totally guessing here, but I don't think it would, since
> the digital station can be split into 6 subchannels, the
> frequency arrangment for the channel 6 would be different?
>
> Anyway I don't think that there will be any (maybe a few)
> stations that are digital in this range.
>
A digital TV channel covers its entire 6 MHz segment with an "8VSB" digital signal. This 8-carrier signal spreads across the entire channel with relatively equal power; on a spectrum analyzer it looks like a rectangular block. The individual video/audio streams are encoded together into the bitstream (known as a Transport Stream); there isn't any correlation between each of the eight VSB's (Vestigial Sidebands) and the individual video/audio subchannels that are carried by them.
The bottom line is that if you live in an area where Channel 6 will become an active DTV channel (82 to 88 MHz), your radio will get "a lot of signal" anywhere below 88.0 FM, but it will sound very much like the thermal noise you normally hear there today.
> > from Channel 6? I'm also curious if that will be the case.
>
> >
>
> I'm totally guessing here, but I don't think it would, since
> the digital station can be split into 6 subchannels, the
> frequency arrangment for the channel 6 would be different?
>
> Anyway I don't think that there will be any (maybe a few)
> stations that are digital in this range.
>
A digital TV channel covers its entire 6 MHz segment with an "8VSB" digital signal. This 8-carrier signal spreads across the entire channel with relatively equal power; on a spectrum analyzer it looks like a rectangular block. The individual video/audio streams are encoded together into the bitstream (known as a Transport Stream); there isn't any correlation between each of the eight VSB's (Vestigial Sidebands) and the individual video/audio subchannels that are carried by them.
The bottom line is that if you live in an area where Channel 6 will become an active DTV channel (82 to 88 MHz), your radio will get "a lot of signal" anywhere below 88.0 FM, but it will sound very much like the thermal noise you normally hear there today.
> The frequencies will be auctioned off to some sort of land
> mobile use, whether that be cell phones, fire, police, etc.
> Current channels 2-6 will be removed from the TV spectrum.
> The same will go for frequencies above (I believe) channel
> 60. Channels 71-83 were removed from TV some years back.
This is partially true. Channels 52 through 69 are being auctioned, and will be removed from use when TV's "analog sunset" occurs, which is supposedly now to be 2009.
Channels 2 through 51 are called the "DTV Core." While many stations are electing to not go back to VHF-Low channels (2 - 6) after the analog sunset, there will still be some stations on those channels. The FCC has solicited responses on whether VHF-Low should be retained or eliminated, but for now it remains part of the DTV spectrum.
My vote is to dump VHF-Low for DTV, since electrical and other transient noise just tears DTV signals apart in this band.
> > > Are you asking if your FM radio will still pick up audio
>
> > > from Channel 6? I'm also curious if that will be the
> case.
> >
> >
> > No, I'm not asking that as 6 will have a digital rather
> than
> > analog one. FM is based on analogue frequencies. So, I
> > know that 87.7 will open up once the change to digital is
> > made. So, my question was what would become of that
> > frequency? On a related subject, I own an AM FM radio
> that
> > picks up TV sound for channels 4, 6, 10 and 12. That will
>
> > mean that I won't be able to sit out or walk around and
> > listen to those signals. That is all I need as I am
> blind.
> > Those days will end too.
AM/FM/TV radios will effectively become AM/FM only. I doubt we'll ever see a radio again that gets TV audio only, because the 8VSB tuner chip and MPEG/AC3 video/audio decoder chips will be necessary just to get the audio from each subchannel. There will, I'm sure, be handheld DTV receivers someday, but there won't be much point in putting that digital hardware in a receiver which picks apart the audio and video, yet not include a display.
> mobile use, whether that be cell phones, fire, police, etc.
> Current channels 2-6 will be removed from the TV spectrum.
> The same will go for frequencies above (I believe) channel
> 60. Channels 71-83 were removed from TV some years back.
This is partially true. Channels 52 through 69 are being auctioned, and will be removed from use when TV's "analog sunset" occurs, which is supposedly now to be 2009.
Channels 2 through 51 are called the "DTV Core." While many stations are electing to not go back to VHF-Low channels (2 - 6) after the analog sunset, there will still be some stations on those channels. The FCC has solicited responses on whether VHF-Low should be retained or eliminated, but for now it remains part of the DTV spectrum.
My vote is to dump VHF-Low for DTV, since electrical and other transient noise just tears DTV signals apart in this band.
> > > Are you asking if your FM radio will still pick up audio
>
> > > from Channel 6? I'm also curious if that will be the
> case.
> >
> >
> > No, I'm not asking that as 6 will have a digital rather
> than
> > analog one. FM is based on analogue frequencies. So, I
> > know that 87.7 will open up once the change to digital is
> > made. So, my question was what would become of that
> > frequency? On a related subject, I own an AM FM radio
> that
> > picks up TV sound for channels 4, 6, 10 and 12. That will
>
> > mean that I won't be able to sit out or walk around and
> > listen to those signals. That is all I need as I am
> blind.
> > Those days will end too.
AM/FM/TV radios will effectively become AM/FM only. I doubt we'll ever see a radio again that gets TV audio only, because the 8VSB tuner chip and MPEG/AC3 video/audio decoder chips will be necessary just to get the audio from each subchannel. There will, I'm sure, be handheld DTV receivers someday, but there won't be much point in putting that digital hardware in a receiver which picks apart the audio and video, yet not include a display.
Phil,
Thanks for the clarification. I had things mixed up with that 1948 opinion! (Interesting that they were looking to remove channels 2-6 from the TV spectrum back then.)
- Dick
> > The frequencies will be auctioned off to some sort of land
>
> > mobile use, whether that be cell phones, fire, police,
> etc.
> > Current channels 2-6 will be removed from the TV spectrum.
>
> > The same will go for frequencies above (I believe) channel
>
> > 60. Channels 71-83 were removed from TV some years back.
>
> This is partially true. Channels 52 through 69 are being
> auctioned, and will be removed from use when TV's "analog
> sunset" occurs, which is supposedly now to be 2009.
>
> Channels 2 through 51 are called the "DTV Core." While many
> stations are electing to not go back to VHF-Low channels (2
> - 6) after the analog sunset, there will still be some
> stations on those channels. The FCC has solicited responses
> on whether VHF-Low should be retained or eliminated, but for
> now it remains part of the DTV spectrum.
>
> My vote is to dump VHF-Low for DTV, since electrical and
> other transient noise just tears DTV signals apart in this
> band.
>
> > > > Are you asking if your FM radio will still pick up
> audio
> >
> > > > from Channel 6? I'm also curious if that will be the
> > case.
> > >
> > >
> > > No, I'm not asking that as 6 will have a digital rather
> > than
> > > analog one. FM is based on analogue frequencies. So, I
>
> > > know that 87.7 will open up once the change to digital
> is
> > > made. So, my question was what would become of that
> > > frequency? On a related subject, I own an AM FM radio
> > that
> > > picks up TV sound for channels 4, 6, 10 and 12. That
> will
> >
> > > mean that I won't be able to sit out or walk around and
> > > listen to those signals. That is all I need as I am
> > blind.
> > > Those days will end too.
>
> AM/FM/TV radios will effectively become AM/FM only. I doubt
> we'll ever see a radio again that gets TV audio only,
> because the 8VSB tuner chip and MPEG/AC3 video/audio decoder
> chips will be necessary just to get the audio from each
> subchannel. There will, I'm sure, be handheld DTV receivers
> someday, but there won't be much point in putting that
> digital hardware in a receiver which picks apart the audio
> and video, yet not include a display.
>
Thanks for the clarification. I had things mixed up with that 1948 opinion! (Interesting that they were looking to remove channels 2-6 from the TV spectrum back then.)
- Dick
> > The frequencies will be auctioned off to some sort of land
>
> > mobile use, whether that be cell phones, fire, police,
> etc.
> > Current channels 2-6 will be removed from the TV spectrum.
>
> > The same will go for frequencies above (I believe) channel
>
> > 60. Channels 71-83 were removed from TV some years back.
>
> This is partially true. Channels 52 through 69 are being
> auctioned, and will be removed from use when TV's "analog
> sunset" occurs, which is supposedly now to be 2009.
>
> Channels 2 through 51 are called the "DTV Core." While many
> stations are electing to not go back to VHF-Low channels (2
> - 6) after the analog sunset, there will still be some
> stations on those channels. The FCC has solicited responses
> on whether VHF-Low should be retained or eliminated, but for
> now it remains part of the DTV spectrum.
>
> My vote is to dump VHF-Low for DTV, since electrical and
> other transient noise just tears DTV signals apart in this
> band.
>
> > > > Are you asking if your FM radio will still pick up
> audio
> >
> > > > from Channel 6? I'm also curious if that will be the
> > case.
> > >
> > >
> > > No, I'm not asking that as 6 will have a digital rather
> > than
> > > analog one. FM is based on analogue frequencies. So, I
>
> > > know that 87.7 will open up once the change to digital
> is
> > > made. So, my question was what would become of that
> > > frequency? On a related subject, I own an AM FM radio
> > that
> > > picks up TV sound for channels 4, 6, 10 and 12. That
> will
> >
> > > mean that I won't be able to sit out or walk around and
> > > listen to those signals. That is all I need as I am
> > blind.
> > > Those days will end too.
>
> AM/FM/TV radios will effectively become AM/FM only. I doubt
> we'll ever see a radio again that gets TV audio only,
> because the 8VSB tuner chip and MPEG/AC3 video/audio decoder
> chips will be necessary just to get the audio from each
> subchannel. There will, I'm sure, be handheld DTV receivers
> someday, but there won't be much point in putting that
> digital hardware in a receiver which picks apart the audio
> and video, yet not include a display.
>
> > the FM dial. So, once these stations are converted, can
> or
> > will the 87.7 frequencies be used for FM stations?
>
> Yes they can be used for FM station. In fact, channels 5
At least six stations will use channel 6 for their DTV operations. (WPVI Philadelphia, KRMA Denver, KBSD Ensign KS, KTVM Butte, WRGB Schenectady, and KPTW Casper.) (a seventh station, WEDY New Haven CT, has requested channel 6 for their permanent DTV operation but the FCC has not yet acted on their request)
It is possible a number of LPTVs, translators, and Class A stations will also operate permanently on channel 6.
To answer another question.. no, you won't be able to hear DTV stations' audio on 87.7 FM, even if that station is transmitting on RF channel 6. (and as others have mentioned, Fox 6's digital signal is, and will remain, on RF channel 33)
Right now, you can buy a radio that gets TV sound on all channels, or at least all VHF channels. These too will stop working when analog TV is shut down.
> or
> > will the 87.7 frequencies be used for FM stations?
>
> Yes they can be used for FM station. In fact, channels 5
At least six stations will use channel 6 for their DTV operations. (WPVI Philadelphia, KRMA Denver, KBSD Ensign KS, KTVM Butte, WRGB Schenectady, and KPTW Casper.) (a seventh station, WEDY New Haven CT, has requested channel 6 for their permanent DTV operation but the FCC has not yet acted on their request)
It is possible a number of LPTVs, translators, and Class A stations will also operate permanently on channel 6.
To answer another question.. no, you won't be able to hear DTV stations' audio on 87.7 FM, even if that station is transmitting on RF channel 6. (and as others have mentioned, Fox 6's digital signal is, and will remain, on RF channel 33)
Right now, you can buy a radio that gets TV sound on all channels, or at least all VHF channels. These too will stop working when analog TV is shut down.
> > > the FM dial. So, once these stations are converted, can
>
> > or
> > > will the 87.7 frequencies be used for FM stations?
> >
> > Yes they can be used for FM station. In fact, channels 5
>
> At least six stations will use channel 6 for their DTV
> operations. (WPVI Philadelphia, KRMA Denver, KBSD Ensign
> KS, KTVM Butte, WRGB Schenectady, and KPTW Casper.) (a
> seventh station, WEDY New Haven CT, has requested channel 6
> for their permanent DTV operation but the FCC has not yet
> acted on their request)
>
> It is possible a number of LPTVs, translators, and Class A
> stations will also operate permanently on channel 6.
>
> To answer another question.. no, you won't be able to hear
> DTV stations' audio on 87.7 FM, even if that station is
> transmitting on RF channel 6. (and as others have
> mentioned, Fox 6's digital signal is, and will remain, on RF
> channel 33)
>
> Right now, you can buy a radio that gets TV sound on all
> channels, or at least all VHF channels. These too will stop
> working when analog TV is shut down.
>
There's a possibility some models might come out to pick up the audio of digital TV stations. As for the analog radios with VHF channels on them, They're only good in markets where there are some VHF stations. I've seen them in markets where it's a UHF only TV market, like South Bend Indiana.
>
> > or
> > > will the 87.7 frequencies be used for FM stations?
> >
> > Yes they can be used for FM station. In fact, channels 5
>
> At least six stations will use channel 6 for their DTV
> operations. (WPVI Philadelphia, KRMA Denver, KBSD Ensign
> KS, KTVM Butte, WRGB Schenectady, and KPTW Casper.) (a
> seventh station, WEDY New Haven CT, has requested channel 6
> for their permanent DTV operation but the FCC has not yet
> acted on their request)
>
> It is possible a number of LPTVs, translators, and Class A
> stations will also operate permanently on channel 6.
>
> To answer another question.. no, you won't be able to hear
> DTV stations' audio on 87.7 FM, even if that station is
> transmitting on RF channel 6. (and as others have
> mentioned, Fox 6's digital signal is, and will remain, on RF
> channel 33)
>
> Right now, you can buy a radio that gets TV sound on all
> channels, or at least all VHF channels. These too will stop
> working when analog TV is shut down.
>
There's a possibility some models might come out to pick up the audio of digital TV stations. As for the analog radios with VHF channels on them, They're only good in markets where there are some VHF stations. I've seen them in markets where it's a UHF only TV market, like South Bend Indiana.
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