87.7 is a "melting pot" of ethnic broadcasters

[nd2023]

Sunday morning, I heard Indian programming on 87.7. In the afternoon, it was Caribbean. And in the night, it was English rock "Indie Darkroom". On the weekdays, it's Russian. That means it serves 4 completely different groups of people, and each group would not listen to 87.7 during the programming not targeted to them. I'm guessing it's leased to 4 different broadcasters.

It'll be dead last in the Arbitron ratings for the forseeable future. At least Party managed to get a 0.2 on the 87.7 frequency in its first 2 months. I just wonder how the ethnic broadcasters and Indie Darkroom will survive on 87.7 with little if any ad revenue. There is competition for each of the broadcasters: A lot of Caribbean pirate stations, a couple prominent Russian pirate stations, 2 Indian stations in NJ and 98.7-HD2, and college stations that play indie rock.

I just wonder how the different ethnic broadcasters can possibly get more total ad revenue than PartyFM did on 87.7, assuming the sum of the lease payments of the 4 broadcasters to Island is the same as PartyFM's lease payments.

 

[TonySantiago]

Nick...three words.....

LET IT GO

 

[d21ofnj]

Pulse is back online. 87.7 is dead and gone.

 

[WNTIRadio]

As long as they're meeting the needs of each niche group, then it will be successful. It's like a subcarrier service without the special radios. Each neighborhood/group will run their spots, targeted directly to their audience and it will work. It's not about sheer numbers, it's about super-serving your target audience with programming they want.

Bloomberg Radio does well with the same .7 it's had for years, but because they super-serve their target (Wall St. professionals) they do quite well. There's other AM's that Arthur Liu leases that also do well and barely show up as a speck in the ratings.

In this case, it's not about Arbitrons, agency buys and mainstream revenue. They won't even BUY the book to sell their spots.

 

[BiggieFats]

Nick...three words.....

LET IT GO

He won't let it go until the station finally goes digital and he can't hear it anymore.

 

[hubcity]

Actually, this is a tendency I've seen whenever I've been aware of a format change. With one glaring exception - WCBS-FM - format flips are often followed by a display of passionate fans of the format petitioning exactly the wrong people about restoring the format.

Here's my logic:

- A station owner puts a format on the air. Fans of the format rejoice.
- Despite the passion of the format's fans, the format does not live up to the expectations of the owner.
- The owner changes the format.
- Fans of the format plead with the station owner to restore the format.

Here's the problem: the station's owners haven't just changed the format, they've also completely discounted the possibility that that format could ever get them the revenue they clearly need (otherwise they wouldn't be making the change.) In this situation, the station owners get annoyed by the format's fans, because they figure they've already proven themselves to be the incorrect stewards of the format.

The right thing to do (and the one I think Tony's done a good job of in the past, and that I think he'll continue to do) is to take the performance history of the format and dangle it in front of another station that might appreciate the listenership it'll likely generate. Otherwise, it's just the exertion of an incredible force against an increasingly immovable object.

(And that's why I now have a radio station. It ain't big, but it's mine, as long as the folks who own it will have me.)

 

[nd2023]

For the record, I don't expect to ever hear dance on 87.7 again. I'm just curious as to how all the ethnic broadcasters can survive on 87.7 but PartyFM couldn't.

 

[WNTIRadio]

For the record, I don't expect to ever hear dance on 87.7 again. I'm just curious as to how all the ethnic broadcasters can survive on 87.7 but PartyFM couldn't

See above explanation. That really is how it works. I've been around it enough to know, and have seen it in action.

Tell me where you see WZRC, WPAT, WNSW, WJDM or WWRU show up in a ratings book. Yet the formats are there, day in and day out. So someone must be listening and someone must be patronizing the folks that support the programming. If you're Russian, Korean or a member of any other ethnic group, where else are you going to listen?

Party FM was trying to compete against the big guns with not exactly "big gun" sound. Then they tried to garner the ads from agencies and other big clients who are looking for the best cost per point. Just to break even, Party would have had to bill $800,000 gross to cover the $500,000/mo rent for a not quite radio station. Take away the salaries, expenses and commissions of a couple sales people and there you are. Put it on a strange signal, where people aren't used to hearing commercials, that's significantly smaller than the other class B's on Empire and then throw in a lower-mid level to sometimes small market sound as far as DJ's, imaging and the like and you've just created one tough sell for yourself. And have put yourself way in the hole before you begin to see any cash. The $50 a holler spots on the east end of Long Island aren't going to cover those bills.

 

[nd2023]

Tell me where you see WZRC, WPAT, WNSW, WJDM or WWRU show up in a ratings book. Yet the formats are there, day in and day out. So someone must be listening and someone must be patronizing the folks that support the programming. If you're Russian, Korean or a member of any other ethnic group, where else are you going to listen?

I did mention that each ethnicity represented on 87.7 has other stations airing programming targeted to the same people and more established than 87.7. Sure, they all might not be on legal stations, but the FCC isn't shutting the pirates down for years. The pirate stations, and WDDM 89.3/100.7, all have their transmitters in the neighborhoods with the highest concentration of people of that ethnicity, they already have an audience, and they air programming targeting a certain ethnicity 24/7. As for advertising, it's going to be cheaper to advertise on the pirates or an 8 watt LPFM. Yes, it's not fair that the pirate stations are on the air, but that's how it is.

According to its facebook page, Indie Darkroom plans to raise money by charging bands for airplay and specifically says they're not going to play commercials. I don't think too many bands will pay to get their music heard on 87.7 in the middle of the night, so I can't see that business model succeeding.

 

[MickeyD]

Tell me where you see WZRC, WPAT, WNSW, WJDM or WWRU show up in a ratings book. Yet the formats are there, day in and day out. So someone must be listening and someone must be patronizing the folks that support the programming. If you're Russian, Korean or a member of any other ethnic group, where else are you going to listen?

I did mention that each ethnicity represented on 87.7 has other stations airing programming targeted to the same people and more established than 87.7. Sure, they all might not be on legal stations, but the FCC isn't shutting the pirates down for years. The pirate stations, and WDDM 89.3/100.7, all have their transmitters in the neighborhoods with the highest concentration of people of that ethnicity, they already have an audience, and they air programming targeting a certain ethnicity 24/7. As for advertising, it's going to be cheaper to advertise on the pirates or an 8 watt LPFM. Yes, it's not fair that the pirate stations are on the air, but that's how it is.

According to its facebook page, Indie Darkroom plans to raise money by charging bands for airplay and specifically says they're not going to play commercials. I don't think too many bands will pay to get their music heard on 87.7 in the middle of the night, so I can't see that business model succeeding.

If you are a member of a foreign speaking minority and there is only one station that broadcasts in your native language, even if it has a crappy signal, then that is the BEST station on the air. Did you know that the people running that microstation paid a half million dollars a few years ago for it? Did you also know that they donated a large hunk of change for broadcasting commercial "like" messages on the station? There is support for such stations.

They are moving to commercial channel (104.7) soon. It was supposed to be an LPFM in Point Pleasant that was never built.

 

[TonySantiago]

The right thing to do (and the one I think Tony's done a good job of in the past, and that I think he'll continue to do) is to take the performance history of the format and dangle it in front of another station that might appreciate the listenership it'll likely generate. Otherwise, it's just the exertion of an incredible force against an increasingly immovable object.

(And that's why I now have a radio station. It ain't big, but it's mine, as long as the folks who own it will have me.)

It's going to take a LOT MORE than just dangling historic background this time around. What has to be proven this time around is that a given format can SELL.

Let's face it, you can have "monkey sounds of the wild" as a format and if people are listening and purchasing products based on the ads and the station not only gets a decent cume but hits right to that target audience of those that like monkey sounds, it's a success and the format is a keeper based on that.

What I have been trying to figure out is how to "sell" contemporary dance in terms of potential advertisers. Because, let's face it, Pulse 87 DID get a million listeners at a peak but what good is all of that if they couldn't get a NATIONAL big name client...not just "thicker is better" or the local clubs, tanning salons and car dealerships. Then it hit me, based on the hip-hop demographics....selling a "lifestyle". Whereas the hip-hop brand is about the clothing, the look, image, etc....for dance music, we gotta sell "beautiful".

Granted, it's only hot in New York from May to October, but we'd have to get at the lifestyle aspect of dance music fans which includes stylish and trendy club clothing, cell phone companies (so many people text in clubs), sunglasses, beverages (such as the Red Bull, energy drinks), travel, just to name a few.

Easier said than done here and I think advertisers STILL have a bit of an apprehension for targeting certain aspects of a dance music crowd.

I'll dangle the sheets but I need to get more than that

 

[Dancerev889]

The right thing to do (and the one I think Tony's done a good job of in the past, and that I think he'll continue to do) is to take the performance history of the format and dangle it in front of another station that might appreciate the listenership it'll likely generate. Otherwise, it's just the exertion of an incredible force against an increasingly immovable object.

(And that's why I now have a radio station. It ain't big, but it's mine, as long as the folks who own it will have me.)

It's going to take a LOT MORE than just dangling historic background this time around. What has to be proven this time around is that a given format can SELL.

Let's face it, you can have "monkey sounds of the wild" as a format and if people are listening and purchasing products based on the ads and the station not only gets a decent cume but hits right to that target audience of those that like monkey sounds, it's a success and the format is a keeper based on that.

What I have been trying to figure out is how to "sell" contemporary dance in terms of potential advertisers. Because, let's face it, Pulse 87 DID get a million listeners at a peak but what good is all of that if they couldn't get a NATIONAL big name client...not just "thicker is better" or the local clubs, tanning salons and car dealerships. Then it hit me, based on the hip-hop demographics....selling a "lifestyle". Whereas the hip-hop brand is about the clothing, the look, image, etc....for dance music, we gotta sell "beautiful".

Granted, it's only hot in New York from May to October, but we'd have to get at the lifestyle aspect of dance music fans which includes stylish and trendy club clothing, cell phone companies (so many people text in clubs), sunglasses, beverages (such as the Red Bull, energy drinks), travel, just to name a few.

Easier said than done here and I think advertisers STILL have a bit of an apprehension for targeting certain aspects of a dance music crowd.

I'll dangle the sheets but I need to get more than that

\

Its the not the advertisers you have to win over, its the sales staff. What runs the major radio companies? The sales department. Those are the people you have to win over.

 

[TonySantiago]

Its the not the advertisers you have to win over, its the sales staff. What runs the major radio companies? The sales department. Those are the people you have to win over.

True. No argument there. ;D

My thinking is this because it's a dual edge sword. Sales departments want results; the "bottom line". Account reps are busting their tails out there seeking out new clients as well as maintaining their current clientele. They could go to the media buyers of companies and "sell" the dance format based on the PPM numbers and research. But if the media buyers have no idea what type of product the radio account reps are "selling" because the brand, while wildly popular, is deemed unfamiliar in their eyes that is a problem. And if the sales departments are having a tough time selling, then a format is doomed. It's something I NEVER forgot about when Vic Latino explained this mentality at the Winter Music Conference this year and why, for his bottom line, it made sense to have certain aspects of hip-hop on the playlist interspersed with a Kim Sozzi, Lucas Prata, Kaskade, David Guetta, etc.

Though I do think somehow and in some way dance CAN sell well mainly on its own, without having to TOTALLY rely on other genres. Not saying that a station HAS TO STOP playing hip-hop, rhythmic or pop (that would be NERVE of me to even suggest it) ;D . It's just a matter of continually developing and strengthening our "brand", and things ARE looking good in that sense, especially that you have more hip-hop artists crossing over to the dance side of things. The sales department of a given station will always wave that "flag" to sell their format to the media buyers. It's the media buyers that have to be convinced WHY buying into a dance contemporary format makes TOTAL sense. And IMHO, it would be A LOT easier to sell dance contemporary with a station above 92 with a much more powerful signal than 87.7.

My thinking has shifted. It's not only showing that the fans are there but that by going with a dance format, any advertiser would see positive results. Because, as I had noted before, a station could have a high amount of listeners, as Pulse 87 did even with their anomalies, but it doesn't mean SQUAT unless big name advertisers would have bought into the station. In that sense, I don't blame the sales department over at Pulse; Rick Hernandez and his staff did what they could do. It's just the "unfamiliarity". People know Jay-Z. Very few people know Flanders. That CAN change as long as our brand keeps growing.

Being in the industry you definitely know this and if I'm missing something or am off base somehow on the above hypothesis, let me know.

 

[disney fanatic]

How about the "Sound of Life" on 87.7. I hope this station will play Christian music on this format. But hey! If any station in the Hudson Valley listening area like 89.7 in Kingston, 89.1 in Pawling, 88.3 in Newburgh, 91.1 in Hudson and a few other stations in the upstate region, why not put it on 87.7, that would be good. Right now, we got many stations that running the "Sound of Life", but we don't have one in New York City just yet, but we shall see. I found this link right here to listen to online if you don't have the station in NYC yet, here it is.

http://www.soundoflife.org

 

[Dancerev889]

Its the not the advertisers you have to win over, its the sales staff. What runs the major radio companies? The sales department. Those are the people you have to win over.

True. No argument there. ;D

My thinking is this because it's a dual edge sword. Sales departments want results; the "bottom line". Account reps are busting their tails out there seeking out new clients as well as maintaining their current clientele. They could go to the media buyers of companies and "sell" the dance format based on the PPM numbers and research. But if the media buyers have no idea what type of product the radio account reps are "selling" because the brand, while wildly popular, is deemed unfamiliar in their eyes that is a problem. And if the sales departments are having a tough time selling, then a format is doomed. It's something I NEVER forgot about when Vic Latino explained this mentality at the Winter Music Conference this year and why, for his bottom line, it made sense to have certain aspects of hip-hop on the playlist interspersed with a Kim Sozzi, Lucas Prata, Kaskade, David Guetta, etc.

Though I do think somehow and in some way dance CAN sell well mainly on its own, without having to TOTALLY rely on other genres. Not saying that a station HAS TO STOP playing hip-hop, rhythmic or pop (that would be NERVE of me to even suggest it) ;D . It's just a matter of continually developing and strengthening our "brand", and things ARE looking good in that sense, especially that you have more hip-hop artists crossing over to the dance side of things. The sales department of a given station will always wave that "flag" to sell their format to the media buyers. It's the media buyers that have to be convinced WHY buying into a dance contemporary format makes TOTAL sense. And IMHO, it would be A LOT easier to sell dance contemporary with a station above 92 with a much more powerful signal than 87.7.

My thinking has shifted. It's not only showing that the fans are there but that by going with a dance format, any advertiser would see positive results. Because, as I had noted before, a station could have a high amount of listeners, as Pulse 87 did even with their anomalies, but it doesn't mean SQUAT unless big name advertisers would have bought into the station. In that sense, I don't blame the sales department over at Pulse; Rick Hernandez and his staff did what they could do. It's just the "unfamiliarity". People know Jay-Z. Very few people know Flanders. That CAN change as long as our brand keeps growing.

Being in the industry you definitely know this and if I'm missing something or am off base somehow on the above hypothesis, let me know.

A pure dance is too niche, but a dance leaning station will work.

 

[TonySantiago]

Its the not the advertisers you have to win over, its the sales staff. What runs the major radio companies? The sales department. Those are the people you have to win over.

True. No argument there. ;D

My thinking is this because it's a dual edge sword. Sales departments want results; the "bottom line". Account reps are busting their tails out there seeking out new clients as well as maintaining their current clientele. They could go to the media buyers of companies and "sell" the dance format based on the PPM numbers and research. But if the media buyers have no idea what type of product the radio account reps are "selling" because the brand, while wildly popular, is deemed unfamiliar in their eyes that is a problem. And if the sales departments are having a tough time selling, then a format is doomed. It's something I NEVER forgot about when Vic Latino explained this mentality at the Winter Music Conference this year and why, for his bottom line, it made sense to have certain aspects of hip-hop on the playlist interspersed with a Kim Sozzi, Lucas Prata, Kaskade, David Guetta, etc.

Though I do think somehow and in some way dance CAN sell well mainly on its own, without having to TOTALLY rely on other genres. Not saying that a station HAS TO STOP playing hip-hop, rhythmic or pop (that would be NERVE of me to even suggest it) ;D . It's just a matter of continually developing and strengthening our "brand", and things ARE looking good in that sense, especially that you have more hip-hop artists crossing over to the dance side of things. The sales department of a given station will always wave that "flag" to sell their format to the media buyers. It's the media buyers that have to be convinced WHY buying into a dance contemporary format makes TOTAL sense. And IMHO, it would be A LOT easier to sell dance contemporary with a station above 92 with a much more powerful signal than 87.7.

My thinking has shifted. It's not only showing that the fans are there but that by going with a dance format, any advertiser would see positive results. Because, as I had noted before, a station could have a high amount of listeners, as Pulse 87 did even with their anomalies, but it doesn't mean SQUAT unless big name advertisers would have bought into the station. In that sense, I don't blame the sales department over at Pulse; Rick Hernandez and his staff did what they could do. It's just the "unfamiliarity". People know Jay-Z. Very few people know Flanders. That CAN change as long as our brand keeps growing.

Being in the industry you definitely know this and if I'm missing something or am off base somehow on the above hypothesis, let me know.

A pure dance is too niche, but a dance leaning station will work.

And I'm cool with that

 

[stationless listener]

A pure dance is too niche, but a dance leaning station will work.

There's already a station for that - WKTU

 

[TonySantiago]

A pure dance is too niche, but a dance leaning station will work.

There's already a station for that - WKTU

However, 'KTU's lean is much older, add to the fact that their format is more mainstream dance. We're talking about a station gearing to a younger demo in this case.