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87.7 testing

DrC said:
Still not figuring out how they're broadcasting in FM stereo on 87.7 on an LpTV whose (mono) audio carrier is at 87.75 (while still being fully audible over tv ch 6, per that clip) but maybe someone's built some custom equipment to allow such a thing.
Click to expand...

It's legal to use the FM stereo system on a TV station's aural signal. Any TV transmitter that supported TV stereo audio would automatically have the correct connections to connect an FM stereo generator. No custom gear required; just grab a FM stereo generator & attach it to the TV transmitter.
 
The only thing that is really weird about this is that the owners will obviously be operating the station for its radio presence on 87.7, but in 2015 the FM presence will disappear with the FCC's mandate that all LPTVs go digital by that year.

So what is the payoff for the investment? Will it actually become a real TV station in 2015? What else can it do?
 
No choice.

WLFM-LP either becomes a "real" digital TV station on 9/1/2015, or goes dark. (Or, the then current LMA operator LMA's a new, regular FM station. Or, they lease an HD2 somewhere and simulcast on an FM translator.)

I'm wondering if EMF has any interest in this. They just bought a second Youngstown market station, and they already LMA another "Franken FM" in a big market, San Jose.
 
HHH said:
The only thing that is really weird about this is that the owners will obviously be operating the station for its radio presence on 87.7, but in 2015 the FM presence will disappear with the FCC's mandate that all LPTVs go digital by that year.

So what is the payoff for the investment? Will it actually become a real TV station in 2015? What else can it do?
Click to expand...

The answer is that no one really knows. Some LPTV 6 operators are apparently petitioning for the FCC to allow analog LPTV to continue on channel 6. I don't know if the FCC has decided on that one yet or not.

Also, there are some who read the law as saying that the conversion to digital only requires a conversion of the video side to digital and still permits analog audio so long as it also doesn't air digital audio. Again, I'm not sure if the FCC has ruled on that issue. I don't think the Commission even has to rule until all of those stations go digital. It previously ruled against WRGB in Albany, which tried to run both analog and digital audio, but that's not the issue here. These "Franken FM's" have no desire to have their audio heard on TV sets and, obviously, can't be seen on the radio!
 
Kent said:
The answer is that no one really knows. Some LPTV 6 operators are apparently petitioning for the FCC to allow analog LPTV to continue on channel 6. I don't know if the FCC has decided on that one yet or not.
Click to expand...

I don't give that effort much chance of success. The 87.7 thing is a loophole, and I fully expect actual radio stations to fight any effort to keep it past the LPTV transition. Channel 6 is a TV service, not a radio service, and I'd be surprised if the FCC sees it otherwise.
 
There are people who would listen to radio on a television...

I have encountered them, and could never figure out how they could stand it with the sound
of the horizontal oscillator mixed in with their music, talk, etc.
It must be above their hearing range.

I remember a Zentih TV from about 1987...it was stereo and had jacks in the back where you were
supposed to connect your "stereo sound system" line out signal and then listen to your
music through the TV. ??? Presumably you would retire your "large speakers"?
I was kinda stunned that anyone would even think to want to do such a thing.
There was no audio only mode, the screen did go black but indicated audio input.
Horizontal osc going the whole time..

Quite a few cable systems I have met in my travels have had local FMs on one channel or another.

It might be better now with flatscreen televisions; they are a lot quieter.
For me, still can't accept listening to radio on a device where audio is secondary.
 
I'm with OMW: I see essentially zero chance of the FCC reversing themselves & allowing these "FrankenFMs" to continue past 2015. I'd have to reread the 2015 regs (don't have time right now) but I find it VERY hard to buy the FCC allowing low-power DTV stations to broadcast a signal that's not compatible with DTV receivers -- and I find it hard to buy that any significant fraction of DTV receivers will be able to decode a signal with a big fat FM audio signal in the channel.

The problem with converting channel 6 to FM radio spectrum is that it's needed for TV...

I suspect the FCC regrets allowing the loopholes that let "FrankenFMs" to exist. I don't think they're going to go out of their way to perpetuate them.
 
w9wi said:
The problem with converting channel 6 to FM radio spectrum is that it's needed for TV...
Click to expand...

The FCC could very well give that reason to get themselves out of this "Franken FM" Situation . Weren't a lot of DTV stations trying to avoid VHF Low because of poor reception?
 
inter1097 said:
Weren't a lot of DTV stations trying to avoid VHF Low because of poor reception?
Click to expand...

Essentially, yes. While the DTV standard may be technically feasible for low VHF, it's not practical as the power levels to replicate existing coverage are too low to overcome simple interference while the wavelengths are too long for most antennas. I seem to remember an antenna optimized for channel 2 would have to be almost 10 feet long. I'm sure w9wi could tell you more as I believe he's an engineer.

The FCC, however, is trying to see if it can find ways to make low VHF more attractive to broadcasters so it can free up higher UHF spectrum for broadband.
 
Kent said:
inter1097 said:
Weren't a lot of DTV stations trying to avoid VHF Low because of poor reception?
Click to expand...

Essentially, yes. While the DTV standard may be technically feasible for low VHF, it's not practical as the power levels to replicate existing coverage are too low to overcome simple interference while the wavelengths are too long for most antennas. I seem to remember an antenna optimized for channel 2 would have to be almost 10 feet long. I'm sure w9wi could tell you more as I believe he's an engineer.

The FCC, however, is trying to see if it can find ways to make low VHF more attractive to broadcasters so it can free up higher UHF spectrum for broadband.
Click to expand...

Pretty much agreed.

IMHO the primary problem with low-VHF DTV is poor antennas. A set of rabbit ears appropriate for channel 2 would have ears on the order of 4 feet in length -- quite a few antennas have been sold that don't come anywhere near that. Low-VHF also suffers the same noise issues as AM radio -- computers and poorly-maintained power lines. And, you're probably right about power levels being too low.

And yes, the FCC is trying to find a way to encourage broadcasters to use low-VHF so they can sell more UHF spectrum. They certainly aren't going to force a station *out* of low-VHF *into* UHF, especially just to accommodate a handful of stations that managed to find a loophole.

(I don't think the FCC is going to have many full-power volunteers for the UHF-to-VHF move. However, many low-power stations won't have any choice.)
 
Kent said:
inter1097 said:
Weren't a lot of DTV stations trying to avoid VHF Low because of poor reception?
Click to expand...

Essentially, yes. While the DTV standard may be technically feasible for low VHF, it's not practical as the power levels to replicate existing coverage are too low to overcome simple interference while the wavelengths are too long for most antennas. I seem to remember an antenna optimized for channel 2 would have to be almost 10 feet long. I'm sure w9wi could tell you more as I believe he's an engineer.

The FCC, however, is trying to see if it can find ways to make low VHF more attractive to broadcasters so it can free up higher UHF spectrum for broadband.
Click to expand...
The half wavelength of channel 2 is around 8 feet. A 4 foot quarter wave antenna would work for ch 2.

I read somewhere recently where Philadelphia's ch 6 is broadcasting in DTV on frequency. What happens when skip is up and the Franken FM's and this DTV signal mix?
 
what's on Ohio Media Watch is still very brief..I'd like to hear the full test-with all the songs in their entirety..
 
Both Channel 6 and 87.7 have been dead air (carrier only) last 2 days. An aircheck is usually a representative sample, not the whole program. And my reception not good enough to post more than a snippet, pic fading in and out, and the audio sometimes too. Lucky I got the station ID as well as I did, so I did that and the few seconds surrounding the ID each way.
 
Tim L said:
what's on Ohio Media Watch is still very brief..I'd like to hear the full test-with all the songs in their entirety..
Click to expand...

We posted a scoped aircheck. We have the whole thing, but are a bit hobbled technically right now...so it may take a while to be able to post it. The whole recording does not have all of Indian Fever, as we started and stopped recording in mid-song.
 
OhioMediaWatch said:
Tim L said:
what's on Ohio Media Watch is still very brief..I'd like to hear the full test-with all the songs in their entirety..
Click to expand...

We posted a scoped aircheck. We have the whole thing, but are a bit hobbled technically right now...so it may take a while to be able to post it. The whole recording does not have all of Indian Fever, as we started and stopped recording in mid-song.
Click to expand...

That's ok..Whatever can be done whenever..I appreciate it.
 
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