910 WGTO being hammered by 890 WLS IBOC- recording

[Tom Wells]

Yesterday and today I was able to witness the trashing of WGTO 910 AM 1kw in Cassopolis Michigan.
I listened to this station often in Chicago previous to WLS AM IBOC.
Now it is unlistenable west of La Porte, In, where it was previously strong and clear.
I made this recording at a rest stop on the Indiana Toll Road, near South Bend, which WGTO desires to serve, as they state
"WGTO, South Bend/Mishawaka".
I vary the tuning between upper and lower sidebands, finally stopping on center tuning, as most people hear on a modern PLL radio.
Imagine what it must do to their stereo CQUAM decoding!

This one's ripe for legal action, give it a listen.
The other recording shows how hiss (which supposedly isn't there), can be cleaned up from analog reception with signal processing.

http://thomasjwells.podOmatic.com/entry/eg/2007-03-20T20_25_15-07_00

 

[clouseau]

Yesterday and today I was able to witness the trashing of WGTO 910 AM 1kw in Cassopolis Michigan.
I listened to this station often in Chicago previous to WLS AM IBOC.
Now it is unlistenable west of La Porte, In, where it was previously strong and clear.
I made this recording at a rest stop on the Indiana Toll Road, near South Bend, which WGTO desires to serve, as they state
"WGTO, South Bend/Mishawaka".
I vary the tuning between upper and lower sidebands, finally stopping on center tuning, as most people hear on a modern PLL radio.
Imagine what it must do to their stereo CQUAM decoding!

This one's ripe for legal action, give it a listen.
The other recording shows how hiss (which supposedly isn't there), can be cleaned up from analog reception with signal processing.

http://thomasjwells.podOmatic.com/entry/eg/2007-03-20T20_25_15-07_00

Ya know, I hate to keep saying the same thing, but...

WGTO does not have any protected contour that I can find in Indiana. It just does not extend over the state line (Approx). I get that they may "Want" to serve there, but that does not entitle them to protection so they CAN serve there.

Also is it me or is there only one recording on the page--- and it has radio from New York in it?

Clouseau

 

[Tom Wells]

Yesterday and today I was able to witness the trashing of WGTO 910 AM 1kw in Cassopolis Michigan.
I listened to this station often in Chicago previous to WLS AM IBOC.
Now it is unlistenable west of La Porte, In, where it was previously strong and clear.
I made this recording at a rest stop on the Indiana Toll Road, near South Bend, which WGTO desires to serve, as they state
"WGTO, South Bend/Mishawaka".
I vary the tuning between upper and lower sidebands, finally stopping on center tuning, as most people hear on a modern PLL radio.
Imagine what it must do to their stereo CQUAM decoding!

This one's ripe for legal action, give it a listen.
The other recording shows how hiss (which supposedly isn't there), can be cleaned up from analog reception with signal processing.

http://thomasjwells.podOmatic.com/entry/eg/2007-03-20T20_25_15-07_00

Also is it me or is there only one recording on the page--- and it has radio from New York in it?

Clouseau

You are right. When I checked, 2 recordings were there, now only one. I will try to fix this.

 

[PhilJSmith67]

What receiver were you using, again?

I'm going to have to check this out tomorrow morning. I recall that I can just barely hear audio from WGTO where I live (the magenta square on this map), but I am clearly outside any predicted coverage whatsoever. Still, just 19 miles from WLS, I don't get much noise on 910 kHz with the Sangean HDR-1, nor the Blaupunkt RDM168 (Alaska-II) radio in my car. Granted, the Blau is very narrowband and brickwalls the audio at 4.5 kHz, but the Sangean widens out when a usable signal is there. On the opposite side of WLS, I can usually hear a very distant daytimer on 870 kHz, whose callsign + location escapes me at the moment. I am pretty sure there is no evidence of hash from WLS, at least nothing beyond the normal background noise of a very distant AM station.

To be fair, I will try it on a crappy Sharper Image shower radio too, which has an absurdly wide IF -- So wide that most stations above 1200 are stricken with 10kHz whistles, even the locals. I'll try it on my old Sony WM-F11 AM Stereo walkman, too.

As for the LaPorte toll plaza (yellow/orange "X" in Porter County), this map from R-L is quite accurate for WGTO's pattern. WGTO ain't puttin' much wattages into many cottages in Porter County.

http://psmithus.no-ip.com/wgtopattern.jpeg

 

[clouseau]

As for the LaPorte toll plaza (yellow/orange "X" in Porter County), this map from R-L is quite accurate for WGTO's pattern. WGTO ain't puttin' much wattages into many cottages in Porter County.

http://psmithus.no-ip.com/wgtopattern.jpeg

Phillip,

I don't think this is where he is referring to as far as on the map. I'm a long way off, but if you re-read the post I think his complaint is closer to South Bend. I don't know the area, but would you re-read the post and verify you actually marked where he's talking about.

BTW thanks for the x's on the map. It really helps. I have found that the red circles on Radio locator are actually a little outside the protected contour most of the time. I can see why this station tries to get to South Bend. Thery're pretty much in the middle of nowhere.

Clouseau

 

[Tom Wells]

I think the link is fixed for the new recording, and yes, it was the rest stop close to South Bend where this was recorded.
By the time I was near La Porte, In, the signal was really unlistenable at all, even tuning to upper sideband.
The radio is a Motorola car radio, circa 1972 AM/FM TRF with 2-stage IF, probably at 262.5 Khz, and about 23 KHz IF bandwidth
at -10 db.

This signal was "listenable" all the way to the north side of Chicago at one time, and "strong/clear" in all of NW Indiana.

I did have to delete the previous recording where I removed the hiss that wasn't there in RF Burns' NYC recordings.

 

[PhilJSmith67]

I'll check it out in the morning where I live. I'll be in the middle of Lake County IN around noon, so I can check it again in the car. Maybe my memory is off, but I have a pretty good idea of how far WGTO used to go, and I don't ever recall it being strong anywhere in Porter county. But, the ground conductivity could be funky around there and cause the signal to drop off very quickly in a 10 mile span.

... My apologies for incorrectly marking the wrong toll plaza on the map :-[ ...

 

[Tom Wells]

I'll check it out in the morning where I live. I'll be in the middle of Lake County IN around noon, so I can check it again in the car. Maybe my memory is off, but I have a pretty good idea of how far WGTO used to go, and I don't ever recall it being strong anywhere in Porter county. But, the ground conductivity could be funky around there and cause the signal to drop off very quickly in a 10 mile span.

... My apologies for incorrectly marking the wrong toll plaza on the map :-[ ...

I will try to locate and identify the exact plaza tomorrow.

Proximity to the lake is key. It seems to really help propogation to the west.
Along the toll road was always a "clear signal" from Portage and east, previously.
I used to be to able listen at home, 7 miles north of downtown.
Along Lake Shore Drive, next to the very tall buildings, which seem to act as reflectors WGTO was about 10-20 db stronger there,
as opposed to "clear space".

I haven't checked that area for WGTO since WLS went IBOC, but I doubt anything is left.

They were the only AM oldies format into Chicago.

 

[PhilJSmith67]

There aren't many plazas along the Toll Road. If it's the next big plaza east of LaPorte on the "main line" it must be right outside South Bend.

 

[4dude]

Totally disgusting!!!

I WOULD COMPLAIN LIKE CRAZY!!!!!!

 

[IBOCRocks]

Yesterday and today I was able to witness the trashing of WGTO 910 AM 1kw in Cassopolis Michigan.
I listened to this station often in Chicago previous to WLS AM IBOC.
Now it is unlistenable west of La Porte, In, where it was previously strong and clear.
I made this recording at a rest stop on the Indiana Toll Road, near South Bend, which WGTO desires to serve, as they state
"WGTO, South Bend/Mishawaka".
I vary the tuning between upper and lower sidebands, finally stopping on center tuning, as most people hear on a modern PLL radio.
Imagine what it must do to their stereo CQUAM decoding!

This one's ripe for legal action, give it a listen.
The other recording shows how hiss (which supposedly isn't there), can be cleaned up from analog reception with signal processing.

http://thomasjwells.podOmatic.com/entry/eg/2007-03-20T20_25_15-07_00

This reminds me of a battle of FM's a few years back. A new FM singed on south of a metro area, which completely wiped out a first-adjacents coverage in the same metro. That station filed an objection, then tried to sue. It lost every time. The FCC has stated that just because you can reach an area outside of your interference free contour doesn't mean you are protected from any interference that may come along in that area. In fact WGTO, isn't even rated in the market.

In the case of WGTO just because they wish to serve an area outside of their protected contour doesn't mean they are protected in that area. This would be a different story of it were in their city of license.

So, sure, they could take legal action. Doesn't mean they'd win, however.

 

[Tom Wells]

I checked some maps and the rest area was at mile 91, about due south of Cassopolis, Michigan.

Yes, I know the city of license is nowhere, and the references to South Bend/ Mishawaka only shows the area they would wish
to serve, where there are many more potential listeners.
These listeners will now have the challenge of critical tuning for mono analog AM. I don't think there's any way to make this
sound OK if listening in CQUAM stereo.

They did have a very respectable signal which is now reduced in its west and south coverage to probably 25 miles without noise.
That's pretty sad when their 1000 watts used to be so good into Chicago.

 

[IBOCRocks]

I checked some maps and the rest area was at mile 91, about due south of Cassopolis, Michigan.

Yes, I know the city of license is nowhere, and the references to South Bend/ Mishawaka only shows the area they would wish
to serve, where there are many more potential listeners.
These listeners will now have the challenge of critical tuning for mono analog AM. I don't think there's any way to make this
sound OK if listening in CQUAM stereo.

They did have a very respectable signal which is now reduced in its west and south coverage to probably 25 miles without noise.
That's pretty sad when their 1000 watts used to be so good into Chicago.

I agree with you on all of that. It is sad. But it's also indicative of the current state of things. In reality, it was always supposed to be this way (no guarantee of coverage outside of your contour) it's just that now, it's actually playing out that way.

 

[PhilJSmith67]

I guess I can call this my "first in a series of personal experiences with AM IBOC interference to 2nd-adjacents."

In Beecher, IL, I am focusing on two stations to get an idea of how much 2nd-adjacents are affected. The two stations for this informal "test" are 910 WGTO Cassopolis, MI, and 870 WINU Shelbyville, IL. Here is where Beecher is located in relation to these stations (shown as an orange dot).

http://psmithus.no-ip.com/BeecherAndWGTO.jpeg
http://psmithus.no-ip.com/BeecherAndWINU.jpeg

According to the maps, I am theoretically outside the predicted fringe contour of either station.

WINU puts a weak but audible signal into Beecher. On a scale of 1 (carrier present/inaudible) to 10 (50kW next door) I would give WINU a 3. Since the pre-IBOC days there has always been significant background noise on 870, and about half of my radios were able to get it. WGTO's scale of 1-to-10 would be a 1 or 1.5 here. I have never heard WGTO on any of my receivers here where it was completely audible, but I can make out words here an there.

Since WGTO is so weak here, my observations for WINU would be more pertinent, as they would more closely approximate what the reception of WGTO might be like between LaPorte and South Bend. As for the IBOC offender, WLS is right in between, and appears to have equally-balanced HD Radio signal levels above and below 890 kHz.

910 WGTO Observations...
Sangean HDR-1: Hardly audible with loop positioned northeast; no IBOC hash regardless of loop position
Blaupunkt RDM168 (in driveway): No trace of signal, but not due to any noticeable IBOC hash
Aiwa Z-L520: Hardly audible with loop rotated northeast, but IBOC hash present unless "nulled" with loop
Sharper Image SI-538: Well covered with IBOC hash
Walkman WM-F11: IBOC hash falls off just before 920 AM, but there is no "room" in between to detect if WGTO is there
Philco from 1939: Transformer and/or rectifiers JUST BLEW! NOOOOOOO!

870 WINU Observations...
Sangean HDR-1: Audible with loop positioned southwest; no IBOC hash regardless of loop position
Blaupunkt RDM168 (in driveway): Audible, with no IBOC hash
Aiwa Z-L520: Very much audible, but IBOC hash present unless "nulled" with loop
Sharper Image SI-538: Well covered with IBOC hash, which even affects 920 AM
Walkman WM-F11: Barely audible if tuned to "left edge" and is accompanied by high-pitch IBOC hash
Philco from 1939: No report!

I've never really played around with this Aiwa stereo on AM. It's pretty darn sensitive! It's also a more wideband than the Blaupunkt, but not so much that analog stations overlay each other. The Sharper Image thing just plain sucks. It's insanely wideband, and has horrid sensitivity. Although IBOC splatter kills this radio, based on the number of other MIA stations such as 850 WCPT and 620 WTMJ, I know this radio would never have recieved WINU or WGTO in the pre-IBOC days. Second adjacents are very much affected by IBOC, but not completely oblitered, on the Walkman.

I double-checked my observations by tuning 700 WLW (vs. IBOC from WGN), and comparing with 540 WYLO Jackson-Milwaukee, which has no IBOC near it. Both stations have about the same signal level as 870 WINU. Again, I found that some receivers are affected by 2nd-adjacent IBOC hash, either mildly or completely, and the narrowband radios are not.

Now, pardon me whilst I cry in the corner by my most favorite receiver of all time, my late grandfather's 1939 Philco console, with the nice big backlit AM/Marine/SW slide rule, and the little station indicators that say WIND/WMAQ/WGN/WAIT/WENR/WCFL/WJJD/WHFC.

 

[Chuck]

Now, pardon me whilst I cry in the corner by my most favorite receiver of all time, my late grandfather's 1939 Philco console, with the nice big backlit AM/Marine/SW slide rule, and the little station indicators that say WIND/WMAQ/WGN/WAIT/WENR/WCFL/WJJD/WHFC.

The good news is that your old Philco can probably be brought back to life fairly easily. That is more than you can say for the other radios you've mentioned. Power transformers and #80 rectifier tubes are available. Don't forget to replace the filter capacitors, which is probably what took it out in the first place.

 

[Tom Wells]

The Aiwa sounds like it is closest in response to most of my AM BC radios.
Not narrow, not "broad as a barn door", but a reasonable compromise between audio response and good selectivity.

It must be time for the Philcos to have power supply problems!

My 1936 Philco 116-X seems to have lost one of its filter caps last weekend, and I replaced most of them in 1993.
Maybe we should have a Philco-fixing party. I've put it off every night this week.

Plates in the rectifier will glow red hot within 30 seconds if you've got a real dead short.
It'll ruin a transformer in 10 minutes.
Do you get any glow out of the 80 rectifier? A strong purple glow is bad, as it also means high current.
The filaments in a rectifier will often burn out when theres a DC supply short, serving as a fuse, but a very slow one.

Is your console the one with the Philco Mystery Control?
Tell me what model you have, and I'll help you get it going.

 

[PhilJSmith67]

The filter caps were replaced about 20 years ago. It almost sounded like a rectifier shorted before the xfmr blew... Very loud shrill AC, then nothing. I have an handful of the tubes in case the ones (including the #80) fail. I think the radio has been on the outs for a while. I'm saving that restoration project until after I move in a few months across town.

Anyway, yes, the Aiwa turns out to be one of the most "pleasant" receivers on which to listen to AM that I have, now that the Philco is on Injured Reserve. The Sharper Image thing also suffers from that "self-jamming" attribute for HD Radio stations. WSCR, WGN, WBBM and WLS sound like a running shower. Fortunately it's a shower radio, so the IBOC hash that covers the audio is trumped by hash from the shower itself. ;D

So, I stand corrected on my statement from the recent past that most receivers are not affected by second-adjacent noise. I've certainly got evidence of it here. Admittedly, these are fairly weak stations I'm getting here, and based on the "new interpretation" of FCC rules, this occurs outside of protected contours, where some people claim there are a negligible percentage of listeners. I think the only way to avoid the IBOC hash on second adjacents it is to listen on a sensitive yet very narrowband receiver where everything sounds equally crappy, use a highly-directional loop antenna to null-out the hash (when possible) for a wider band receiver, or both.

As for first adjacents, one thing I find "peculiar" but foretelling about nighttime IBOC, is a situation involving one strong and one weaker station on the Aiwa. 1200 WRTO Chicago is pretty strong -- Not strong enough to reliably lock the HD Radio signal, but strong enough to make 1190 WOWO Fort Wayne non-existent on all but the Aiwa and Sangean radios (which have the loop antennas). I know that 1190 WOWO has always been strong enough here to listen; I recall the days when they were Top 40 when I was a kid, giving temperatures off the World-Famous Wo-Wo Fire Escape. Anyway, IBOC from WRTO makes WOWO unlistenable even with WRTO nulled. But, what's really a kicker, is that WOWO's IBOC makes WRTO sound bad, too, and it's very difficult to null out! I also suspect that the signal from WOWO corrupts the WRTO IBOC stream, which is why I can't lock it.

Now I'm going to hit the road and see how the Blau fares with these stations, and a few others like WLW.

 

[awj223]

I agree with you on all of that. It is sad. But it's also indicative of the current state of things. In reality, it was always supposed to be this way (no guarantee of coverage outside of your contour) it's just that now, it's actually playing out that way.

How did we end up with the protected contours that we have today? They seem very arbitrary and not reflective of reality. Why not protect a signal by defining its interference-free contour as wherever it can be heard with a decent receiver? Typical automotive receiver sensitivities seem to be around 18-20 uV/m for AM and 8-10 dBf for FM. So I'd protect AM skywave signals to something like the 90%, 50 uV/m contour which means that you should be able to hear the station without fading for example. In this way, we could almost guarantee that no station is unlistenable due to interference on the best receivers in practical use. I would not count the sensitivity of 3000' Beverage antennas like the one used to make these recordings http://www.goobe.net/iboc/iboc_observ.mp3 since I don't consider them practical, but typical automobile receivers? Sure, most of us have one or two of those.

 

[BRNout]

One of the arguments that's always posed about issues such as this is that you're outside of the protected contour of the station so you're out of luck...deal with the hash. Well, I have a different argument. Why should stations be allowed to emit hash outside of THEIR protected contour? Because, clearly they do. In fact, well outside.

An FCC license for 890 am should not allow WLS to step all over 870, 880, 900, and 910 throughout the western Great Lakes region. At least, that's not supposed to be the spirit of the license.

And, you do get interference +/- 20kHz on almost all am radios - even good ones. Some specialised or super-expensive set doesn't count. However, cheaper radios get splattered much worse. The nighttime IBOC operation is a guaranteed road to annoyance - if not disaster. For the am band, at least.

 

[IBOCRocks]

One of the arguments that's always posed about issues such as this is that you're outside of the protected contour of the station so you're out of luck...deal with the hash. Well, I have a different argument. Why should stations be allowed to emit hash outside of THEIR protected contour? Because, clearly they do. In fact, well outside.

An FCC license for 890 am should not allow WLS to step all over 870, 880, 900, and 910 throughout the western Great Lakes region. At least, that's not supposed to be the spirit of the license.

And, you do get interference +/- 20kHz on almost all am radios - even good ones. Some specialised or super-expensive set doesn't count. However, cheaper radios get splattered much worse. The nighttime IBOC operation is a guaranteed road to annoyance - if not disaster. For the am band, at least.

The hash isn't protected outside of their contour. So if a local station interferes with the "hash" then the IBOC station has to deal with it.

So, already done. Hearing the hash outside of the protected contour is just the same as hearing audio outside the contour. If you can, great, and if not...too bad.