An "all obscure and unknown titles all the time" format has no commercial viability. Zip. Zero. Nada. 99.999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% of all oldies listeners are not music geeks nor record collectors. There is, however, though not an oldies format, going on in the Cincinnati and Dayton markets right now. Let's see if "everyone" indeed is tired of the same old songs, and now wants a steady diet of music they've never heard of. If the theory is true, then I expect to see WNKU in the top 3 in both the Cincinnati and Dayton markets, because they play all music no one has ever heard of.
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93.3 gone?
- Thread starter 1sttimecaller
- Start date
Not true. I and plenty of other people have heard of a number of the artists played on that station.borderblaster said:
On WNKU in the past few hours I have recognized artists such as:
The Red Hot Chili Peppers
Buddy Holly & The Crickets
Florence & The Machine
Ben Folds
Beck
The xx
The Clash
Jeff Bridges
Tom Petty & The Heartbreakers
borderblaster said:
That's not what I do, border. If you're not in Columbus, please listen to the stream of the show if you can; it'll be new episodes both tomorrow night and Friday at 7pm Eastern time (my 283rd and 284th respectively; "Secrets" has been underwritten by the same local business since March of 2009). Our featured artists this week are Buffalo Springfield and Blondie, on Thursday we'll also be hearing from the Left Banke, the Smiths, the Beach Boys, R.E.M., Freddy Cannon, the Sex Pistols, and the Cowsills, among others, and then on Friday night, in addition to Buffalo and Blondie, we'll also have the B-52's, the Buckinghams, the Breeders, the Beau Brummels, Bauhaus, the Band, and Booker T and the MG's, among others (Friday night is going to be "B" night, obviously!). Then when the shows are over, I'd like you to compare what you think the average oldies listener likely got out of either of those two hours with what you think the average oldies listener has likely gotten out of any of the hours that he or she has heard on Oldies 93.3 so far. I predict that it won't even be close -- and it won't be "Yesterday's Top Secrets" coming up on the short end.
M
Mr. Glimps
Guest
Oldies formats only succeed in metros this size if they do the following;
1) play more than the same 500 songs. The core of listeners have been hearing these titles for 30 years or longer. They like those songs, but need to hear a broader sampling of music. Auditorium tests, call-out, and young MD's will kill it before it has a chance. For instance, take a group like Grand Funk. Beside playing "Walk Like a Man" etc. from the post-Farner era, step back to the tunes that got them there like "Mean Mistreator", "Time Machine" and a few others. In the context of the presentation, the audience will love you for it.
2) savvy, mature jocks are a must. They're still out there, people who relate to the music and can relate to the demo in today's terms. Don't for a nanosecond think you can get away with jukebox oldies or young-sounding air talent. The success of the station depends on the listening experience, not just a music playlist.
3) Engage the city....be an active player in the market. Follow the example of stations like WGRR in Cincinnati. You've got to wrap yourself up in the market and the life of the demo.
4) Don't expect anyone under the age of 45 to give a crap...they won't.
1) play more than the same 500 songs. The core of listeners have been hearing these titles for 30 years or longer. They like those songs, but need to hear a broader sampling of music. Auditorium tests, call-out, and young MD's will kill it before it has a chance. For instance, take a group like Grand Funk. Beside playing "Walk Like a Man" etc. from the post-Farner era, step back to the tunes that got them there like "Mean Mistreator", "Time Machine" and a few others. In the context of the presentation, the audience will love you for it.
2) savvy, mature jocks are a must. They're still out there, people who relate to the music and can relate to the demo in today's terms. Don't for a nanosecond think you can get away with jukebox oldies or young-sounding air talent. The success of the station depends on the listening experience, not just a music playlist.
3) Engage the city....be an active player in the market. Follow the example of stations like WGRR in Cincinnati. You've got to wrap yourself up in the market and the life of the demo.
4) Don't expect anyone under the age of 45 to give a crap...they won't.
the marv said:
Not all of those artists test with the primary listeners, Marv. What you're looking for when adding 80's music is to look for "pop" or "pop/rock"songs. Other than a couple Michael Jackson cuts, (and maybe a Janet or two), that's about all the urban you want to get into. The novelty stuff and the early hip hop from the late 80's doesn't work at all. The pop stuff, though, blends fairly well with some of the 60's stuff and most of the 70's.
Unless you're over 65...
PPM loves classic hits/oldies. Years ago, about '03-04, oldies stations were being flipped all over. PPM comes along and "bam", big ratings love proving all along that their was a lot of phantom cume. Classic hits and FM sports the two hottest formats going of late. Of course country is still the #1 format in the U.S.
Successful classic hits station? See CC sister WMJI/Cleveland. WMJI has been oldies since 1989 and has morphed to classic hits before classic hits was even a format. Cleveland an older city than C-Bus but the format is the same give or take songs on the playlist. Cleveland has a rich Top 40 history from the 60s/70s and is a rock town. So you'll hear Grand Funk (Locomotion, etc), Springsteen (broke in CLE by sister WMMS), Mellencamp, etc but will also hear the top testing 60s/70s tunes. WMJI will even go as old as 1959's "Shout" by the Isley Brothers.
Now, WMJI succeeds in large part to the morning show which has been on air together in some form or fashion since 1985. However, the rest of the station performs very well.
@borderblaster.... there is an oldies station in Cinci, 1480 WDJO, and it's very very good. Yes it's AM. And for classic hits it's Cumulus' WGRR.
Successful classic hits station? See CC sister WMJI/Cleveland. WMJI has been oldies since 1989 and has morphed to classic hits before classic hits was even a format. Cleveland an older city than C-Bus but the format is the same give or take songs on the playlist. Cleveland has a rich Top 40 history from the 60s/70s and is a rock town. So you'll hear Grand Funk (Locomotion, etc), Springsteen (broke in CLE by sister WMMS), Mellencamp, etc but will also hear the top testing 60s/70s tunes. WMJI will even go as old as 1959's "Shout" by the Isley Brothers.
Now, WMJI succeeds in large part to the morning show which has been on air together in some form or fashion since 1985. However, the rest of the station performs very well.
@borderblaster.... there is an oldies station in Cinci, 1480 WDJO, and it's very very good. Yes it's AM. And for classic hits it's Cumulus' WGRR.
WMJI has to be one of the best sounding classic hits stations Clear Channel has. Extremely impressive station.
I'm not in Columbus (obviously), but I find this interesting as Clear Channel is turning out new classic hits stations in the past couple of years more than any of the other big corps. San Fransisco, Jacksonville, Virginia Beach, Columbus, Dayton (although rimshot), St. Louis, and re-images in Portland and Milwaukee. Most of these are doing well.
As far as 80s on classic hits, stick with Journey, Huey Lewis, Police, Springsteen, Mellencamp, Madonna, Michael Jackson, Don Henley, etc. Maybe OCCASIONALLY go for some 'one hit wonder' or less popular acts from the 80s. Core should definitely be 70s - that decade has tons of material to choose from, although there is some stuff to be avoided (you don't want to roll Manilow or Streisand, of course). There are the timeless 60s songs that still test well that should be played as well.
I streamed the new station last night on iHR - it's not striking, but I like it and would listen to a station like it in my market in a heartbeat.
I'm not in Columbus (obviously), but I find this interesting as Clear Channel is turning out new classic hits stations in the past couple of years more than any of the other big corps. San Fransisco, Jacksonville, Virginia Beach, Columbus, Dayton (although rimshot), St. Louis, and re-images in Portland and Milwaukee. Most of these are doing well.
As far as 80s on classic hits, stick with Journey, Huey Lewis, Police, Springsteen, Mellencamp, Madonna, Michael Jackson, Don Henley, etc. Maybe OCCASIONALLY go for some 'one hit wonder' or less popular acts from the 80s. Core should definitely be 70s - that decade has tons of material to choose from, although there is some stuff to be avoided (you don't want to roll Manilow or Streisand, of course). There are the timeless 60s songs that still test well that should be played as well.
I streamed the new station last night on iHR - it's not striking, but I like it and would listen to a station like it in my market in a heartbeat.
Mr. Glimps said:
Great post, Mr. Glimps!
1) I just played "Time Machine" on the show a little over a month ago, on July 29. I have also played Grand Funk's "Creepin'", "Sally", "I Can't Get Along With Society", and yes, even "The Loco-Motion" on previous episodes of "Secrets".
2) I may not always be mature (I'm sorry about the inexcusable nastiness of one of my previous posts, Nu Roo) but I am savvy about the music, as I published over one hundred issues of a music fanzine and promoted about fifty concerts, all during the 1980s.
3) I just posted a few pages ago on this thread about hitting Ace of Cups and its fantastic 1960's "Heatwave" dance party last Friday. Does engaging all of the girls who were there in conversation count as engaging the city? Unfortunately, I wasn't able to later engage in anything else with them.
4) Actually, I was the only one at Ace of Cups who was OVER the age of 45!
In conclusion, would you please consider buying a radio station here in Columbus and paying me to be in charge of it, sir?!
WMJI is very careful of the 80s titles it plays. Thus far no Madonna or Michael Jackson. Have heard Huey Lewis. No Don Henley. Again with Cleveland being the oldest Top 30 "northern" market WMJI still plays a good dose of 60s. And it should. Oldies is a 60s/70s format. Some can work in 80s... but not all. And I don't think 80s titles as "oldies". I'm of that generation, graduated hs 1986. I don't think of 80s music as oldies..... but I'm also a programmer of the format so I'm torn there as well. When it comes to attacting the demos for sales then you have to carefully weave in select, key word, select, 80s titles. Evolution not Revolution. I remember the big rush for oldies station in the early 00s to add 70s titles. Numbers dropped on many as the P1s went "What the hell?" In WMJI's case we, I worked there 94-00, started to filter in 70s pop/rock in '97. WMJI was years ahead of the curve musically and other ways. Station was imaged like a HAC and jock presentation was HAC.
re; Streisand. You can play "Stoney End". Pop hit. Nothing else though. And as much as I can't stand Manilow or Bread you'll hear them on many pop classic hits stations.
re: CC oldies/CH stations... CC has put "oldies" back into positioning for Top 20's like KLOU/St Louis and KJR-FM/Seattle. I remember when Marc Chase, then VP Programming South Region was flipping oldies stations like they were dandilion tops. '03-04... includng the station I programmed WTRG/Raleigh. Which had good numbers. To quote Chase "I don't get the format and I don't think it has legs.". Fast forward 7-8 years and with PPM oldies/CH has had a resurgence. All types, even a 50s/60s FM in Denver (Lincoln Financials Cruisin 950).
re; Streisand. You can play "Stoney End". Pop hit. Nothing else though. And as much as I can't stand Manilow or Bread you'll hear them on many pop classic hits stations.
re: CC oldies/CH stations... CC has put "oldies" back into positioning for Top 20's like KLOU/St Louis and KJR-FM/Seattle. I remember when Marc Chase, then VP Programming South Region was flipping oldies stations like they were dandilion tops. '03-04... includng the station I programmed WTRG/Raleigh. Which had good numbers. To quote Chase "I don't get the format and I don't think it has legs.". Fast forward 7-8 years and with PPM oldies/CH has had a resurgence. All types, even a 50s/60s FM in Denver (Lincoln Financials Cruisin 950).
Personally, I don't care for the brand "Oldies." Seems too generic, for my tastes. I prefer names like "Big", "Magic", "Kool", etc...but who am I to say, I'm not in the target.
One classic hits station that I enjoy listening to (non-CC) is CBS' WOCL in Orlando, FL. They could be considered "ahead", I guess - while they play some well-testing 60s songs and of course 70s, they're pretty in to the 80s - rolling Duran Duran, Bon Jovi, Prince, The Fixx, Gary Numan, Madonna, and countless other 80s tracks that you don't hear a lot on the format. I notice that Clear Channel's classic hits stations are more conservative and lean older than the CBS ones. Some CBS stations, like KRTH, still include a fair share of 60s, including some pre-64 tracks. I like some 50s music, as well as 60s music, but as a listener, I've found that I'm enjoying the classic hits format where it's at now more than ever (however, I'm not really in the demo, as I'm class of the 90s).
As for WTRG (now WRVA) - I consider them a potential flipper to oldies/classic hits soon, seeing CC's recent track history. I was in RDU when Clear blew up WTRG and WWMG within months of eachother. I can only hope the format's resurgence eventually comes my way, but I doubt it.
One classic hits station that I enjoy listening to (non-CC) is CBS' WOCL in Orlando, FL. They could be considered "ahead", I guess - while they play some well-testing 60s songs and of course 70s, they're pretty in to the 80s - rolling Duran Duran, Bon Jovi, Prince, The Fixx, Gary Numan, Madonna, and countless other 80s tracks that you don't hear a lot on the format. I notice that Clear Channel's classic hits stations are more conservative and lean older than the CBS ones. Some CBS stations, like KRTH, still include a fair share of 60s, including some pre-64 tracks. I like some 50s music, as well as 60s music, but as a listener, I've found that I'm enjoying the classic hits format where it's at now more than ever (however, I'm not really in the demo, as I'm class of the 90s).
As for WTRG (now WRVA) - I consider them a potential flipper to oldies/classic hits soon, seeing CC's recent track history. I was in RDU when Clear blew up WTRG and WWMG within months of eachother. I can only hope the format's resurgence eventually comes my way, but I doubt it.
carolinaradio said:
True -- and more so now than a year ago when CC started moving many (not all) of their Greatest Hits stations to the "Oldies" brand. E.g., in Seattle concurrent with renaming the station "Oldies" in December they stopped playing up the heritage of the KJR calls (Big Top 40 there in the 60's/70's), cut way back on the big-hit Classic Rock crossover, and made the lists shorter and more AC compatible. A few theories were that that they wanted more female listeners, and that the move made it easier to maintain some degree of national programming centralization from San Antonio.
Truth is I personally would have preferred a somewhat less conservative and tight-listed approach for 93.3 (or at least with a little more spice). You can make it at least a little edgier, less repetitive and more consistently uptempo while still keeping it very mainstream and proven-hit oriented. I.e., still far from a niche format.
Musically Oldies 93.3 sounds pretty soft to me for long periods of time -- sometimes hours. Far from a consistent "pick you up and make you feel good" mode. But then the next hour or two will be scintillating. That was true even during the "countdown" that preceded the official launch. Admittedly part of this may be due to a prevalence of ballads during much of the 70's (especially late 70's). But it doesn't seem to be a priority here to sandwich those songs between uptempo tunes. Sometimes that happens, but often it doesn't
But none of this was a surprise to me since I knew that CC had been moving in the more conservative direction for awhile at lots of its Greatest Hits sations. And maybe from a cume-preserving or primary-competitor-cognizant standpoint it makes sense for 93.3 to continue playing a fair amount of the same music that the were playing before.
None of that changes the fact that I'm delighted with the change! Those who frequent the Columbus board know that I've had a reputation for complaining relentlessly for years about the 93.3's dogged insistence on continuing frontal or near-frontal AC attacks against heritage AC WSNY -- despite the fact that 93.3 was the first new big signal to arrive (in a market that's frightfully short on them) since before Beatlemania.
Let's put it this way:
1. A switch by 93.3 to ANY format that isn't already on one of Columbus' big signals would have made me very happy.
2. Oldies/Greatest Hits was such a glaring void and big opportunity among big signals here (not to mention that its a a format I personally like in its updated form
). I was suggesting Greatest Hits/Oldies more than any other format (so logical in the PPM era!), so obviously I am delighted with the switch.3. If they had switched to a less conservative (but still very proven-hit-oriented and mainstream) version of Oldies/Greatest Hits like WOCL, I would not only been delighted, but shouting it from the mountaintops.
But I'd say "delighted" ain't half-bad! ;D
Yes, they definitely moving in to an older direction - KLOU in St. Louis and WRIT in Milwaukee were once "oldies", but had moved in to almost exclusively 70s/80s in recent years.....there are a couple of exceptions, though. They do well, for the most part, so I guess the audience likes it. I believe KLOU was recently #1. I listened to Magic 107.3 in Jacksonville last weekend and wasn't ecstatic over it - "American Pie", "Operator", "Margaritaville", "The Logical Song", "Build Me Up Buttercup" made up a set - not a ton of personality - it's obvious they want to stay on the safe side, and it's working for them.
EXCEPTIONS: 3WS 94.5/WWSW in Pittsburgh. They have a seemingly deeper playlist and play more aggressive/newer titles compared to these recent upstart/re-positioned stations in question. They are one of my favorite classic hits stations that Clear Channel owns. Also, KQQL/Minneapolis is even more classic rock-based. Then, of course, WMJI. Perhaps since these stations have been around for so long without many drastic changes, they aren't as cookie cutter. Who knows. Other than that, most are pretty much the same - safe, tight playlists. I can't believe they would stop using call letters with heritage like KJR for "Oldies." Ack.
As you said, since 93.3 has been an AC station that was older-leaning, they might not want to be shocking in order to try to keep some of the older end of Softrock's demo.
EXCEPTIONS: 3WS 94.5/WWSW in Pittsburgh. They have a seemingly deeper playlist and play more aggressive/newer titles compared to these recent upstart/re-positioned stations in question. They are one of my favorite classic hits stations that Clear Channel owns. Also, KQQL/Minneapolis is even more classic rock-based. Then, of course, WMJI. Perhaps since these stations have been around for so long without many drastic changes, they aren't as cookie cutter. Who knows. Other than that, most are pretty much the same - safe, tight playlists. I can't believe they would stop using call letters with heritage like KJR for "Oldies." Ack.
As you said, since 93.3 has been an AC station that was older-leaning, they might not want to be shocking in order to try to keep some of the older end of Softrock's demo.
@carolinaradio.... I don't think CC Raleigh flips to oldies/CH. WRVA does well as a classic rock "lite" classic hits, Top 10 PPM. And Curtis Media's Y102-9 is doing classic hits. They also have 50s/60s on WKIX/AM850.
Regarding Minneapolis, Pittsburgh and Cleveland. All midwest towns with a rock/Top 40 heritage.
Regarding Minneapolis, Pittsburgh and Cleveland. All midwest towns with a rock/Top 40 heritage.
VODood said:
That statement is very true for Columbus too, although in keeping with Cbus' perennial anonymity that fact isn't nationally recognized. Won't go into the history here, but there's plenty of it, dating further back than most markets. I'd imagine this is one assertion where jakej, who formerly published a local fanzine, would be in full agreement, even though -- unlike me -- he wouldn't want to use it to justify giving Columbus the somewhat edgier and/or slightly broader types of Oldies/Classic Hits stations you currently see in Pittsburgh, Minneapolis and Cleveland.
jakej said:Nu_Roo_2 said:Get a kick out of those listener testimonials that pre-date the debut of the format.
When you're playing B.S. music, you've got to sell it with B.S.
Nu_Roo_2 said:cbusradioman said:
If tonight is any indication, what happens in the PM is that Oldies 93.3 sounds even better.
Sorry, I realize that's not what you were asking, but I read the question just as I was listening to "My Sharona" seguing into "Na-Na Hey Hey Kiss Him Goodbye."
And this is somehow exciting for you???
Yes, Jake...most people like the hits. I know you don't believe that. But, it's true.
Nu_Roo_2 said:
Jason Roberts said:
Okay, you guys sound like you're trying to spur me into posting again today, so I won't let you down! I'm not sure how Columbus' rock and roll scene compared to what was happening in other towns back during the '60s and '70s, but throughout the 1980s there were a lot of great things that happened here, I think it's fair to say that we were the envy of many towns that were our size and larger, and I published The Offense to give our city's many enthusiastic fans an opportunity to document all of that excitement that was being felt everywhere.
But now fast-forward twenty years, from 1980-89 to 2000-08 -- I'm visiting our radio stations trying to get a show or format on the air, anytime that someone meets with me I give him a back issue or two of the zine, usually no one meets with me so I can only leave it at the front desk for him instead, but in either case, no one in the business seems particularly impressed with The Offense -- to them it doesn't matter, proves nothing, waste of good paper. The copies of it are treated with the same disdain that the promotional copies of albums were that I handed out or dropped off at the same places some twenty years earlier. When I booked a band into the Newport or Stache's back during the '80s that was touring to support an LP of theirs that had recently been released, I'd usually be sent twenty or so copies of the record, and even though I soon realized that I was wasting my time trying to get FM airplay for any of those records, I'd keep visiting the stations with the stuff anyways, just to let them know that despite their best efforts, they hadn't succeeded in getting rid of me or the music yet. This was a war that they were not going to win. And they didn't. Instead of the music being killed, bands like Nirvana eventually came along, and the music took over.
People who like the hits will like "Secrets" tonight -- "Poor Baby" by the Cowsills, "Pretty Baby" by Blondie, "Pretty Ballerina" by the Left Banke, weren't those ... sort of hits, anyways??? And Friday's show will be even better, because I figure a lot of people will be listening to President Obama instead of me at 7:00 tonight, and so I'm saving my choice words about 93.3's format switch for tomorrow night's episode. But tonight will still be good, and thanks, Dispatch, for including "Yesterday's Top Secrets" in your TV/Radio "Highlights" block in today's edition. That is, seriously, about the 60th time that we've popped up in there!
Nu_Roo_2 said:
Turns out that the unwritten law sure held this time. 93.3's final (August) book as an AC was definitely an up one. 6+ AQH share went 4.0 -> 4.9. I'm sure they'll surpass that before long with the new market-exclusive Oldies format.
Congrats to Country WCOL-FM on reaching #1 in August with a 9.9.
A few more thoughts about 93.3's flip (then I'll lay low on it for awhile unless something really jumps out ):
I know it's hardly a scientific indicator of anything, but I see that Oldies 93.3's new FB page seems to be pulling in early likes at a pretty decent clip, especially for a fairly upper-demo format. Today they added, "OK, I noticed a little too much maize and blue in our logo. Uh...we'll fix it!" LOL. I thought the logo looks pretty nice as is, and hadn't even connected it to the Michigan colors.
Like the fact that they're cross-promoting the new format on the Brew (and, I presume, other CC stations).
Wonder if they tweaked the audio any back when the "countdown" started? Sounds really good.
Don't want to read too much into a single day, but the tempo seems consistently bright today. No extended draggy periods at all, and they seem to have added some nice upbeat and fun 70's and 80's hits to the list. Have really been enjoying listening!
):I know it's hardly a scientific indicator of anything, but I see that Oldies 93.3's new FB page seems to be pulling in early likes at a pretty decent clip, especially for a fairly upper-demo format. Today they added, "OK, I noticed a little too much maize and blue in our logo. Uh...we'll fix it!" LOL. I thought the logo looks pretty nice as is, and hadn't even connected it to the Michigan colors.
Like the fact that they're cross-promoting the new format on the Brew (and, I presume, other CC stations).
Wonder if they tweaked the audio any back when the "countdown" started? Sounds really good.
Don't want to read too much into a single day, but the tempo seems consistently bright today. No extended draggy periods at all, and they seem to have added some nice upbeat and fun 70's and 80's hits to the list. Have really been enjoying listening!
I would be interested in knowing why a lot of Clear Channel's classic hits (or "oldies", as they like to stress) stations lean so much older than CBS's. WLZT isn't really that "old" leaning by their standards.
Another interesting point about CC and classic hits is that most of them ARE rock leaning - CBS's, and others, can get in to disco and 80s new wave, which Clear doesn't really seem in to except for the really big hits. I notice that for the most part, as pointed out, CC is staying away from Madonna, Prince, etc. when it comes to 80s on most of its classic hits stations.
For the most part, I like the new WLZT's music mix, for a Clear Channel classic hits - it's about as good as WJGH in Jacksonville, which I like the most. Don't care for the ones that lean pretty old like WRIT in Milwaukee or KLTH in Portland. I still have Beatles, Beach Boys, and Supremes burnout from the "good times, great oldies" era of the format in the early 2000s. It certainly has improved.
Another interesting point about CC and classic hits is that most of them ARE rock leaning - CBS's, and others, can get in to disco and 80s new wave, which Clear doesn't really seem in to except for the really big hits. I notice that for the most part, as pointed out, CC is staying away from Madonna, Prince, etc. when it comes to 80s on most of its classic hits stations.
For the most part, I like the new WLZT's music mix, for a Clear Channel classic hits - it's about as good as WJGH in Jacksonville, which I like the most. Don't care for the ones that lean pretty old like WRIT in Milwaukee or KLTH in Portland. I still have Beatles, Beach Boys, and Supremes burnout from the "good times, great oldies" era of the format in the early 2000s. It certainly has improved.
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