We can argue all day about demographics and why NYC should not have a country station. But honestly, as a listener, would you rather have a 5th CHR station or a 5th Spanish station, which are the only "safe" bets in this city? Rather than criticizing country, how about we embrace the opportunity to finally have something fresh and new on the dial?
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94.7 Updates
- Thread starter XCountry285
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ansky212 said:
Agreed 100% but radio is about making money. It's not a wish list. Radio as a means to cater to and satisfy the listener disappeared years ago and most people under 30 and ever increasing are turning to other means to hear music. 20 years from now fm will look like am and am will be brokered programming or defunct.
There are alot of formats I would love to hear on the radio but it doesn't mean they make economical sense.
I could go on and do the same rant as the 10 country fans on this board, who don't live in New York, about dance music in this market which in all fairness makes more sense given the demographics, crossovers and EDM all over CHR radio these days in New York but would it make economical sense? Probably not.
Anyway it's not my money I'm putting up and perhaps Cumulus will give it a shot, especially as a national brand and feed which wouldn't cost them much given they paid less for the signal since it's not ESB based.
ansky212 said:
Spanish is a language, not a format.
M
Marckd
Guest
Well something very historic happened today - Allan Sniffin is stating he has a country feeling for WFME - I AM SHOCKED he is thinking this.
Well I have had my issues with Allan. But his beliefs that Country CANNOT be sold easily in NYC have been proven true from 1996 to this year. Lets see who has turned this format down
1. WAXQ considered Country when Viacom bought it in June of 96 but opted for Classic Rock
2. 105.1 WMXV had the opportinuty to switch in October of 1996 and instead modified their Hot AC into an Adult Modern Rock format the Buzz
3. Again 105.1 WDBZ turned down Country again in August of 1997 for WNSR and a Soft Rock AC format which they canceled last minute. They did modify their Modern Adult Hot AC format to more of a Hot AC and then a Straight AC with no marketing till the station's sale was final and then they went to a very failed AC format called Big 105 in early 1998.
5. WBIX 105.1 failed with their AC format which evolved to Hot Ac to a Modern based Hot AC format again and by December of 1998 they again turned down country for the Flavor Of The Month - Jammin Oldies - which I was very critical of. I guaranteed the format would last maybe 2 or 3 years. So Allan I WAS RIGHT ON THIS ONE.
6. 102.7's rock format was failing due to inconsistancies from 1995 on so in September of 1999 they oped for a young based talk format - which FAILED - big mistake was excluding Howard Stern. Anyhow they again turned down country.
7. WTJM (or whatever the calls were) 105.1 Jammin in the Spring of 2002 decides to give up Jammin 105 format - which modified from Rhythmic oldies to R & B Gold to R & B AC. Could have chosen country but decided again to take ratings away from Hot 97 and took on a Young Urban format leaning Hip Hop as Power 105 WPWR.
8. 102.7 WNEW in 2003 was failing miserably with talk. Country would have been a huge improvement but instead they went out of their way to NOT do country. They oped for some wierd entertainment news format - again a Failure
9. 102.7 WNEW - November 2003 - again turned to Christmas Music and then an AC format. In the course of 2004 they modify to a Rhythmic AC format. Format has some modest success but nothing to write home about.
10. WXRK K Rock - Stern leaving so K Rock decided to become "K Talk" (My nicknamd for them at the time) - Instead of capitalizing on a rock format having a young leaning format to themselves they go talk and FAIL AGAIN
11. 102.7 WNEW becomes Hot leaning AC WWFS sometime after 2005 (now I am losing track of exactly when) This was actually proven to be a good move.
12 K Rock The Sequel returns in 2007 - Unfortunately it fails -
13. 101.9 WQCD dumps Smooth Jazz sometime late in the first decade of the 2000's (I AM LOSING TRACK OF WHEN AT THIS POINT) - could have chosen Country but chose Rock in some shape of form...Not a Bad decision. Was semi-successful
14. WXRK sometime after 2009 goes Rhythmic leaning CHR as 92.3 Now - I still do not get this decision...Ratings not real low BUT how well are they really selling this. Young formats need extremely high numbers to sell well. Z 100 does well based on their extremely high overall rating. But have no idea how Now Survives. Still Country again is turned down.
15. 2011 - WRXP takes that All News format which FAILS BADLY AGAIN...Again Country would have done far better and even sold better than that format.
16. 2012 - WRXP The Seqiuel - A good idea to return to Rock and the station was beginning to do okay but WFAN takes over - Oh Well - would have rather seen Rock stay there..
Okay there were a few format changes I did not list because these were situations where owners did not have typical mainstream radio interests but more in Minority (Spanish Music formats like Tropical and Spanish CHR) or Mainstream Specialty formats (such as ESPN Radio) or were AM stations with no interest to do music based formats (plus few if any people are interested in AM MUsic anyway).
Now the Country stations in my lifetime
till 1971 970 WJRZ
1973-July 1, 1987 1050 WHN - An AC Pop leaning Country station by 1975 onward.
September 1980-January 1984 - 106.7 WRVR becomes WKHK and a mainstream country station - at some points close msuically to WHN - other points more traditional - usually just straight ahead Mainstream Country - always played SOME crossover material - Was okay nothing great at some points - poor ratings other times - became MOR or Soft AC WLTW "Lite FM" in 1984 - Evolves from 1995-1997 to more of a Mianstream AC and today have dominated from the mid 90's onward almost always #1 the past decade at least.
July 1, 1987-October 1988 - 97.1 WYNY - NBC
October 1988-February 5, 1996 - 103.5 WYNY - WW1 and then Broadcast Partners
December 1996-May 10, 2002 - Y 107.1 Triplecast and by 1998 Quadcast -
Its amazing that though Country was believed to not be very sellable in NYC...Was Blink??? WNEW's Talk format??? K Talk/WFNY?? WEMP News??? - Even Now 92.3??? Big 105?? The Buzz??
These failures came and went. Other formats not mentioned probably sold better than Country like the Jammin formats. Still the fact those formats sold so poorly does not prove that Country would have sold well - just better than what I mentioned..
Many times people would accuse Allan of not wanting a Country format here in NYC and he NEVER said that. At least Once I remember him saying he would like to see a Country station here in NYC. Also Allan was never the one to convince that Country could sell well...The General Managers of at least one of these FM stations was a person we would need to convince as well as maybe some advertizers. Allan was just a messenger - the same way as Weather People are when they tell us things we wished we did not have to hear.
Now I am convinces a few things have changed in 10 years
1. At least half the advertizers around in 2000 are not in business today. Half the businesses there now were not there in 1996 ro even 2000. Ownership changes happen in all types of business. Which means advertizers not in the area long enough for that perception to be beleived.
2. Most of the people in Management positions at the stations today worked elsewhere 10 years ago. People in upper positions come and go
3. Cumulus is now in the market and they have a different background than other companies and were not in the market back in the 90's and early 2000's.
4. 94.7 has a darn strong signal in New Jersey which will be the area Country will do very well in.
5. Rock may be possible for 94.7 BUT there is WDHA which does very well and has a strong following so I do not see 94.7 doing rock and competing with WDHA.
Overall alot has happened in the past few years. I think Country has a good shot this time around....Personally I like WFME's present music better than Country...BUT this ministry has self destructed over the past 10 years and its damaged maybe beyond economic repair. Its sad to see this format go - But in many ways the Christian Format of WFME has been gone for well over 10 years. Its a shame one man brought this group of stations down. So its time to move on.
I think Country is the best route for 94.7 - Personally I think they should lean Pop with some country friendly sounding AC Cuts mixed in..Just my idea...
Well I have had my issues with Allan. But his beliefs that Country CANNOT be sold easily in NYC have been proven true from 1996 to this year. Lets see who has turned this format down
1. WAXQ considered Country when Viacom bought it in June of 96 but opted for Classic Rock
2. 105.1 WMXV had the opportinuty to switch in October of 1996 and instead modified their Hot AC into an Adult Modern Rock format the Buzz
3. Again 105.1 WDBZ turned down Country again in August of 1997 for WNSR and a Soft Rock AC format which they canceled last minute. They did modify their Modern Adult Hot AC format to more of a Hot AC and then a Straight AC with no marketing till the station's sale was final and then they went to a very failed AC format called Big 105 in early 1998.
5. WBIX 105.1 failed with their AC format which evolved to Hot Ac to a Modern based Hot AC format again and by December of 1998 they again turned down country for the Flavor Of The Month - Jammin Oldies - which I was very critical of. I guaranteed the format would last maybe 2 or 3 years. So Allan I WAS RIGHT ON THIS ONE.
6. 102.7's rock format was failing due to inconsistancies from 1995 on so in September of 1999 they oped for a young based talk format - which FAILED - big mistake was excluding Howard Stern. Anyhow they again turned down country.
7. WTJM (or whatever the calls were) 105.1 Jammin in the Spring of 2002 decides to give up Jammin 105 format - which modified from Rhythmic oldies to R & B Gold to R & B AC. Could have chosen country but decided again to take ratings away from Hot 97 and took on a Young Urban format leaning Hip Hop as Power 105 WPWR.
8. 102.7 WNEW in 2003 was failing miserably with talk. Country would have been a huge improvement but instead they went out of their way to NOT do country. They oped for some wierd entertainment news format - again a Failure
9. 102.7 WNEW - November 2003 - again turned to Christmas Music and then an AC format. In the course of 2004 they modify to a Rhythmic AC format. Format has some modest success but nothing to write home about.
10. WXRK K Rock - Stern leaving so K Rock decided to become "K Talk" (My nicknamd for them at the time) - Instead of capitalizing on a rock format having a young leaning format to themselves they go talk and FAIL AGAIN
11. 102.7 WNEW becomes Hot leaning AC WWFS sometime after 2005 (now I am losing track of exactly when) This was actually proven to be a good move.
12 K Rock The Sequel returns in 2007 - Unfortunately it fails -
13. 101.9 WQCD dumps Smooth Jazz sometime late in the first decade of the 2000's (I AM LOSING TRACK OF WHEN AT THIS POINT) - could have chosen Country but chose Rock in some shape of form...Not a Bad decision. Was semi-successful
14. WXRK sometime after 2009 goes Rhythmic leaning CHR as 92.3 Now - I still do not get this decision...Ratings not real low BUT how well are they really selling this. Young formats need extremely high numbers to sell well. Z 100 does well based on their extremely high overall rating. But have no idea how Now Survives. Still Country again is turned down.
15. 2011 - WRXP takes that All News format which FAILS BADLY AGAIN...Again Country would have done far better and even sold better than that format.
16. 2012 - WRXP The Seqiuel - A good idea to return to Rock and the station was beginning to do okay but WFAN takes over - Oh Well - would have rather seen Rock stay there..
Okay there were a few format changes I did not list because these were situations where owners did not have typical mainstream radio interests but more in Minority (Spanish Music formats like Tropical and Spanish CHR) or Mainstream Specialty formats (such as ESPN Radio) or were AM stations with no interest to do music based formats (plus few if any people are interested in AM MUsic anyway).
Now the Country stations in my lifetime
till 1971 970 WJRZ
1973-July 1, 1987 1050 WHN - An AC Pop leaning Country station by 1975 onward.
September 1980-January 1984 - 106.7 WRVR becomes WKHK and a mainstream country station - at some points close msuically to WHN - other points more traditional - usually just straight ahead Mainstream Country - always played SOME crossover material - Was okay nothing great at some points - poor ratings other times - became MOR or Soft AC WLTW "Lite FM" in 1984 - Evolves from 1995-1997 to more of a Mianstream AC and today have dominated from the mid 90's onward almost always #1 the past decade at least.
July 1, 1987-October 1988 - 97.1 WYNY - NBC
October 1988-February 5, 1996 - 103.5 WYNY - WW1 and then Broadcast Partners
December 1996-May 10, 2002 - Y 107.1 Triplecast and by 1998 Quadcast -
Its amazing that though Country was believed to not be very sellable in NYC...Was Blink??? WNEW's Talk format??? K Talk/WFNY?? WEMP News??? - Even Now 92.3??? Big 105?? The Buzz??
These failures came and went. Other formats not mentioned probably sold better than Country like the Jammin formats. Still the fact those formats sold so poorly does not prove that Country would have sold well - just better than what I mentioned..
Many times people would accuse Allan of not wanting a Country format here in NYC and he NEVER said that. At least Once I remember him saying he would like to see a Country station here in NYC. Also Allan was never the one to convince that Country could sell well...The General Managers of at least one of these FM stations was a person we would need to convince as well as maybe some advertizers. Allan was just a messenger - the same way as Weather People are when they tell us things we wished we did not have to hear.
Now I am convinces a few things have changed in 10 years
1. At least half the advertizers around in 2000 are not in business today. Half the businesses there now were not there in 1996 ro even 2000. Ownership changes happen in all types of business. Which means advertizers not in the area long enough for that perception to be beleived.
2. Most of the people in Management positions at the stations today worked elsewhere 10 years ago. People in upper positions come and go
3. Cumulus is now in the market and they have a different background than other companies and were not in the market back in the 90's and early 2000's.
4. 94.7 has a darn strong signal in New Jersey which will be the area Country will do very well in.
5. Rock may be possible for 94.7 BUT there is WDHA which does very well and has a strong following so I do not see 94.7 doing rock and competing with WDHA.
Overall alot has happened in the past few years. I think Country has a good shot this time around....Personally I like WFME's present music better than Country...BUT this ministry has self destructed over the past 10 years and its damaged maybe beyond economic repair. Its sad to see this format go - But in many ways the Christian Format of WFME has been gone for well over 10 years. Its a shame one man brought this group of stations down. So its time to move on.
I think Country is the best route for 94.7 - Personally I think they should lean Pop with some country friendly sounding AC Cuts mixed in..Just my idea...
Very true. But you have to remember that to those who don't speak Spanish, they're stations that won't be tuned into for the simple reason what they're saying can't be understood.
The reverse can be said for someone who only speaks Spanish lumping the "English" stations together as a block.
I don't think he meant it as a format, just as a language spoken on those stations.
In all fairness, rock was given multiple chances to work in NYC and failed each and every time.
You can blame that on whatever you want, but I'd argue that the format is somewhat tainted in this town for the time being.
It will be refreshing to hear something a little different -- and 94.7 seems to be a good fit, signal wise, to give it a shot.
As I said earlier, it should be a good flanker to WPLJ.
You can blame that on whatever you want, but I'd argue that the format is somewhat tainted in this town for the time being.
It will be refreshing to hear something a little different -- and 94.7 seems to be a good fit, signal wise, to give it a shot.
As I said earlier, it should be a good flanker to WPLJ.
When I first heard that Cumulus was buying 94.7, I thought that cluntry was one of two logical formats for their new acquisition, the other being alternative rock.
An article in today's InsideRadio points out that the country format is doing better than ever. One interesting advantage that it mentions, "County hasn't splintered like other formats have." That seems quite important. For example, modern rock has had difficulties in many markets such as New York because it has fragmented into many subgenres. And the picky rock fans won't listen to stations that play songs that are of a slightly different flavor of rock.
With regard to billing, the Danbury and Putnam County area that Cumulus' Kicks 105.5/106.3 serves is not much further from New York City than many of the places that 94.7 would reach. I hear plenty of commercials for local businesses. Some of their sponsors have been advertising with them since they became a country station. They even run 5 second spots that are squeezed in between songs.
So I would expect Cumulus to be able to sell plenty of local advertising from NJ businesses. Perhaps they can convince many of the suburban advertisers on WPLJ to also buy time on 94.7. And since New York is the nation's largest market for country records, music labels could be among the national advertisers they could count on.
But let's keep in mind that country on 94.7 is still just a rumor. I have not been able to find anything online that would confirm Allan Sniffen's "country feeling" about 94.7.
With regard to billing, the Danbury and Putnam County area that Cumulus' Kicks 105.5/106.3 serves is not much further from New York City than many of the places that 94.7 would reach. I hear plenty of commercials for local businesses. Some of their sponsors have been advertising with them since they became a country station. They even run 5 second spots that are squeezed in between songs.
So I would expect Cumulus to be able to sell plenty of local advertising from NJ businesses. Perhaps they can convince many of the suburban advertisers on WPLJ to also buy time on 94.7. And since New York is the nation's largest market for country records, music labels could be among the national advertisers they could count on.
But let's keep in mind that country on 94.7 is still just a rumor. I have not been able to find anything online that would confirm Allan Sniffen's "country feeling" about 94.7.
luperm said:
A format doesn't fail when the station is sold as a business decision. Twice.
The only time in recent history it failed was K-Rock, and that frankenRock deserved to.
That may have been true 10 years ago as nu-metal wound down in a post-grunge age, there was also kind of an 'emo' thing, and still a swath of other alternative artists. That's not as true these days. It's very indie-focused say 2009 - present and there's a large popular base of that sound these days. Did you notice in Grammy nods in general(Black Keys)? 4/5 Album of the Year nominees are all alternative? I was surprised. Seems like Rock is doing just fine.Barry said:
You just can't compare Danbury, Hudson Valley etc to NY. This is Market #1 as it is defined. Country can do great out there, or even out in Sussex or Hunterdon, but that's not this market where it matters. Stations here have to make the real money. If Cumulus is banking on Joe's Bar and Grill to make the money, it will be in trouble.
thataveragejoe said:
When 101.9/WRXP version 1.0 was sold to Merlin, it was a total disaster. The execution was awful at every level.
When 101.9/WRXP version 2.0 was sold to CBS, you could argue that if rock was the runaway success that many believed, CBS would have run with it. Granted, CBS had an agenda -- get WFAN on FM -- but still, there was no urgency to do that. Also, since people like to throw rocks at 92.3/WNOW, CBS could have easily put WFAN-FM on 92.3 and left the rock format on 101.9. They didn't. That should tell you a few things.
Given the expertise in formats that Cumulus has then Country is the most likely option.WPLJ seems to be positioning itself to siphon of some of KTU's female audience by adding more rhythmic.Country on 94.7 would be the big draw for the female audience that does not particularly care for rhythmic.
Well, lucky for them country listeners buy cars. In fact, they buy the same things that everyone else buys. (WFAN isn't relying on Foot Locker or other sports "lifestyle" advertisers.)
If not, the country fans who listen to the likes of Z-100 on the younger end, and LiteFM and CBS-FM at the upper end, and wherever else should be factored out of the ratings, and lower ad rates should be charged.
Pure conjecture on your part, devoid of anything. The station had ratings especially at the end, and it made some money. Emmis sold it because it needed cash as company for the huge stacks of debt it had. Period. End of story. If you didn't like their execution, that's opinion, not a fact or a format failure.luperm said:
You're pretty blinded and rather contradictory. There's no 'but still' to be had. You answered it, CBS bought it for a specific purpose, they openly announced it when it they did. Again, the case is closed. Anything you suggest about 92.3 isn't worth the text it's written on unless you run CBS. They believe in NOW and are sticking by it - It's entirely unrelated to 101.9. If you have an opinion about CBS's strategy in 2012, that's great, doesn't turn into a fact.
NJMark said:
You overthought my point. It wasn't about lifestyle ads, it was about small local places ($) vs national ($$) of which NYC stations rely less on the former than the latter and vice versa in the suburbs.
There's no conjecture. The facts are that there isn't a (non classic) rock station that has seen a sustained ratings and billings success in NYC that I can recall. If that's not true, prove it.
Multiple owners have had opportunities to do the format and have chosen others. You have 3 CHRs and 3 Hot ACs on the NYC dial...no rock. You could own the format-- but nobody chooses to do so...they'd rather have a 3rd tier CHR instead.
Doesn't mean it won't ever happen...the track record just isn't that good.
Multiple owners have had opportunities to do the format and have chosen others. You have 3 CHRs and 3 Hot ACs on the NYC dial...no rock. You could own the format-- but nobody chooses to do so...they'd rather have a 3rd tier CHR instead.
Doesn't mean it won't ever happen...the track record just isn't that good.
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