94.7 WFME sold to ESPN

[davideduardo]

The New York Radio Market is essentially designed according to the reach of Class-B FM stations from the top of the ESB. Just compare a signal map to an official market map.

No, the NY Metropolitan Survey Area was defined according to the 55/15 rule of Arbitron (roughly half or more of the listening and 15% of commuting from / to the "home") back when AM determined the extent of the market. Like Chicago, NY has a number of 1-A clear channels (by old nomenclature) and several decent 1-Bs and in both cases the market is larger than the useful in-home and at-work signals of the FMs.

Either way, that signal is going to have to plow through nearby buildings, and the FCC accounted for that difference in the math, by giving WFME 37-kw against 6-kw from the ESB.

No, the FCC did not account for that at all. 6 kw at the ESB height is a B, as is 37 kw from the WFME height.

(don't forget straight up is 90-degrees, so 3-degrees above flat, or a fraction of 1-degree is still very low, and the shadows will be about the same)

Again, the slight difference added to the fact that in, let's say, Astoria, the signal is below rooftop level and has to penetrate house after house after house accounts for greater attenuation. Se ai4i's post... he is talking about a 100 kw FM (WRTO) at about 1700 feet that is located SW of his location with a huge wall of condos and office buildings between the two locations.

We'll probably never know how many "potential" bidders were turned off because the signal wasn't "perfect" but it's probably not a big fraction of all potential bidders.

Up to now, it appears that it is all of them. That's why no sale has been announced.

Two possibilities exist: the seller's expectations are too high, or buyers have taken a pass in that they do not want to invest in a defective facility.









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[TimeIsTight]

Either way, that signal is going to have to plow through nearby buildings, and the FCC accounted for that difference in the math, by giving WFME 37-kw against 6-kw from the ESB.

No, the FCC did not account for that at all. 6 kw at the ESB height is a B, as is 37 kw from the WFME height.

Don't you think the FCC accounted for the distance, angle, and potential signal to the horizon when it set up the Class-B power tables? It's a standard that works especially well in this example because the area in question is close to flat.

No, the NY Metropolitan Survey Area was defined according to the 55/15 rule of Arbitron (roughly half or more of the listening and 15% of commuting from / to the "home") back when AM determined the extent of the market. Like Chicago, NY has a number of 1-A clear channels (by old nomenclature) and several decent 1-Bs and in both cases the market is larger than the useful in-home and at-work signals of the FMs.

You are absolutely right that the NY Radio Market was defined long before FM mattered, and I did use the word "essentially" for a reason. (And I really am enjoying this friendly exercise and really don't want to be picky.) But, the "official" market boundaries now come "pretty close" to where the chart's show the ESB FM market signals dropping off.

Those of us who live in these parts know that the signals are regularly listened to much farther out. And once you get away from the urban core of the market, most houses are free standing wood frame with space between buildings. For FM listeners "at home" on the market edge, the signal is usually as listenable as it is with a car radio. To prove my point you only have to look at the Trenton ratings for a Central Jersey market on the far side of NJ. ESB FM stations showing up in the Trenton ratings include WPAT, WPLJ, and WQHT. And I know people in the Trenton market who have listened to NYC FM all of their lives. And the same kind of "outside the market" FM listening goes on in Ocean, Sussex, Hunterdon, and Warren Counties in NJ too, and nobody gives it a second thought. WAXQ from the ESB has a 4.5 in the latest Sussex book.

Two possibilities exist: the seller's expectations are too high, or buyers have taken a pass in that they do not want to invest in a defective facility.

Don't forget this is the third major market station Family Radio has sold in the last year. It also took a while before a buyer was announced for the other two. In this case, WFME has recently, and very slightly changed its tower location, and potential buyers may have wanted to look at "real world" signal differences before committing on a price. Along with you, I would suspect that the seller has greater expectations than the market will support, but I am sure that recent sellers of ESB signals were disappointed too, but only their lawyers and accountants will know for sure.

 

[davideduardo]

Don't you think the FCC accounted for the distance, angle, and potential signal to the horizon when it set up the Class-B power tables?

But... they did not make a specific exception for either the ESB signals or for WFME.

No, the NY Metropolitan Survey Area was defined according to the 55/15 rule of Arbitron (roughly half or more of the listening and 15% of commuting from / to the "home") back when AM determined the extent of the market. Like Chicago, NY has a number of 1-A clear channels (by old nomenclature) and several decent 1-Bs and in both cases the market is larger than the useful in-home and at-work signals of the FMs.

But, the "official" market boundaries now come "pretty close" to where the chart's show the ESB FM market signals dropping off.

The FMs, for in-home and at-work listening, drop off well before the market "ends." How many ESB signals can be heard in a house (or mansion ) in the Hamptons?

Those of us who live in these parts know that the signals are regularly listened to much farther out.

Generally, most of the ratings achieved in similar situations is due to a combination of in-car and at-work ZIP codes that are much closer to the transmitter sites in question.

Whether it be ESB signals in Ocean County or Wilson signals in Ventura, examination of the data (when we actually had it) about listening location showed it to be "out of home."

 

[fybush]

Either way, that signal is going to have to plow through nearby buildings, and the FCC accounted for that difference in the math, by giving WFME 37-kw against 6-kw from the ESB.

No, the FCC did not account for that at all. 6 kw at the ESB height is a B, as is 37 kw from the WFME height.

Don't you think the FCC accounted for the distance, angle, and potential signal to the horizon when it set up the Class-B power tables? It's a standard that works especially well in this example because the area in question is close to flat.

The standard for height derating has nothing to do with angles or vectors or anything like that. It's really very simple, and it's all in 73.211 (b) (2):

(2) If a station has an antenna HAAT greater than the reference HAAT
for its class, its ERP must be lower than the class maximum such that
the reference distance does not exceed the class contour distance. If
the antenna HAAT is so great that the station's ERP must be lower than
the minimum ERP for its class (specified in paragraphs (a)(1) and
(a)(3) of this section), that lower ERP will become the minimum for
that station.

For a class B station, the "class contour distance" is 52 km, which is how far out the 54 dBu contour falls over flat terrain from a class maximum 50 kW/150 m facility. Any increase over 150 m HAAT requires a corresponding decrease in power such that the 54 dBu contour distance does not exceed 52 km. The "table" simply reflects that math.

 

[TimeIsTight]

But, the "official" market boundaries now come "pretty close" to where the chart's show the ESB FM market signals dropping off.
The FMs, for in-home and at-work listening, drop off well before the market "ends." How many ESB signals can be heard in a house (or mansion Wink ) in the Hamptons?

David, you make a good point, one really has to wonder how the Hamptons are still in the New York Radio Market when East Hampton is about 100-miles from the ESB. No way is anybody going to get an NYC FM signal inside the "mansion" or in a car on the street. The Hamptons-Riverhead radio market is embedded in the NY Radio Market and you have to wonder why? There, understandably, are no NYC FMs showing in the Hampton-Riverhead ratings, although some NYC AMs do show.

Actually, South Hampton is about the same distance from the ESB as Center City Philadelphia, which is 81-miles away. By contrast in New Jersey, out-of-market Ocean County starts about 40-miles from the ESB, while up north out-of-market Sussex County also starts about 40-miles from the ESB, and even the Trenton Radio market starts about 45-miles from the ESB in Princeton. People in all of those outer markets can, and do, listen to NYC FM stations regularly. I know people from all those areas very well, and have spent a lot of time in those places myself, and FM radio from NY is normal stuff, in the house and in the car. It's not mostly commuters who listen at work closer to NYC.

So, you're correct, the NY Radio Market does run much farther on Long Island than any of the NYC radio signals, but that certainly isn't the case on the Jersey side where all the major signals go past the "official" ratings market boundaries. It would be interesting to know why the Hampton-Riverhead market is embedded in both the larger New York, and Nassau-Suffolk market and not just counted as a separate market all by itself.

 

[Ai4i]

Sounds like this would give the 1'st tier AM stations a ratings advantage, although perhaps slight.

 

[davideduardo]

It would be interesting to know why the Hampton-Riverhead market is embedded in both the larger New York, and Nassau-Suffolk market and not just counted as a separate market all by itself.

Nassau Suffolk is embedded in the NY market, and Hampton / Riverhead was a subset of the Nassau Suffolk market. But there were not enough subscribers and Arbitron dropped the market.

Since Arbitron usually uses counties as the base for markets (with exceptions), all of Suffolk is in the NY market, and the East End simply is part of that.

Few LA stations reach Lancaster / Palmdale well, but that part of the immense LA county geography is indeed part of the LA market. Yet in SW CT, Arbitron splits a county, and gives a piece to NYC. Elsewhere in the news, some other immense counties are split into multiple markets. Riverside County, CA has a piece of the Riverside market, and all of the separate Palm Springs market. San Berdoo County has the other part of the Riverside market, and all of the Victorville market.

Back to Suffolk... the county is around 1.5 million, and the Hamptons is just over 100 thousand. So the county listening will go to NYC stations, even if some of the county is too far from NYC to really hear the signals.

 

[badjef]

Monmouth County, New Jersey, has a similar problem. Because of the structure of the County, the influence is New York (you can see Empire) to the North and Northeast, the northwest is under the influence of New York and Middlesex County even though Middlesex doesn't care about Monmouth County, the Southwest is Philly/Trenton, and it is part of the Monmouth-Ocean Market where the radio stations licensed for one county have severe signal problems in the other.

The FCC didn't care about these signals and where they went past the technical aspects. They were only concerned about signal overlap due to interference with another signal. The marketing is what influenced where they could "aim" their signal to serve the market they were interested in.

The FCC based their decisions of "City of Licenses" on Post Offices.

Jeff in Sa-ra-so-ta!

 

[XCountry285]

WFME I don't think should be moved into NYC because those in Sussex can hear it back home and on their way to work in NYC if they were going on 80 or those in Hunterdon County can listen to whatever the new station/format is at home and on their way to work in NYC on 78. It's an extremely song signal. I am surprised that their TV station is in West Milford of all places. Why? I think it will either be Country or Alternative.

 

[TimeIsTight]

While WFME-TV is "licensed to West Milford" I understand that its actual studio and transmitter site is in West Orange along with the radio station. If you are pointing an antenna trying to pick up the TV signal that is where you point it.

WFME I don't think should be moved into NYC because those in Sussex can hear it back home and on their way to work in NYC if they were going on 80 or those in Hunterdon County can listen to whatever the new station/format is at home and on their way to work in NYC on 78. It's an extremely song signal.

Unfortunately, anybody who lives in Hunterdon or Sussex County won't count in the New York Radio Market Ratings and won't mean a dime's worth of revenue for whomever buys WFME, and so the new owners aren't going to care much if people in those counties listen or don't, even if they drive into the radio market to work each day. Sussex County is its own market, and Hunterdon is the one county in this whole area that isn't in any radio market, and doesn't count anywhere. The markets are determined by the private ratings business , Arbitron.

When compared to the 15-million people in the entire New York radio market the few hundred thousand people who live in Hunterdon and Sussex combined wouldn't matter much anyway. As you know, Hunterdon has a couple of good non-comm FMs that play country music, and, I was in Sussex this afternoon and caught some good old country music, ironically, on WKCR from Columbia University in NYC, and I also caught some modern country on Cat Country out of Easton, Pa. For sure, people in Sussex, Warren and Hunterdon also like Alternative, and they all can catch it on non-comm WNTI.

Unfortunately, for those of us who like Country and Alternative, most people in the Bronx, Queens, Brooklyn and Manhattan are into other things, and somebody who is paying big bucks for a signal that reaches the millions of them is going to focus its efforts on where it can find the biggest audience, and profits. And that is not in the rural counties of NJ, outside the official NY radio market.

 

[XCountry285]

Why is WFME-TV city of license West Milford? Of all places I really don't understand why it was chosen, it's not like it's not part of the NYC Radio Market/TV Market, it's just a random place to put it. Why not have it West Orange?

 

[Radaioman]

Looks like 94.7 was sold to ESPN. I wonder if CBS will put WFAN on 92.3 now that ESPN landed on FM. I'm going to miss 92.3 Now

They should but they just hired a new CHR PD to be next to fail. I say sports in 6 months.

 

[luperm]

Why is WFME-TV city of license West Milford? Of all places I really don't understand why it was chosen, it's not like it's not part of the NYC Radio Market/TV Market, it's just a random place to put it. Why not have it West Orange?

The analog transmitter was located up on a mountain near West Milford.
The digital (current) site is in West Orange -- same place as the FM.