94.7

[DOB]

With the firing and restructure of Cumulus the Nash initiative seems to no longer be in favor. For the first time there was a Nash that had a format change. Could we see the same here in NYC? Now 94.7 isn't a true NYC signal, it's not there on your dial in Manhattan, and it's weak in Long Island as well. Since it hits all the suburban Jersey counties so well Country seemed a good fit, but could you get more out of it by changing the format to something more mass appeal for this area?

There is a big whole in this market. Most of the most popular music in the area from the late 70s through 80s is not getting play. A Jack type of adult hits format that focuses on the rhythmic hits that all the market leaders played in the past that is certainly under utilized in the market now could do very well. Rhythmic Pop adult hits would take from lite cbs fm ktu a bit maybe from bls and z100 too. It would be a pretty mass appeal station. Take CBS fm right now, it sounds no different musically than classic hits stations in the middle of the country. It doesn't sound New York at all as they don't play any of the songs that were hits in New York that weren't hits elsewhere. A market with such a rhythmic history yet the classic hits station is rock based for the most part, go a little younger and play the songs missing from NYC radio or are underplayed along with those pop hits and you could make a nice 25-54 station.

 

[Shredder]

the problem I have with CBS FM is two fold. 1-too many of the same damn songs. I may throw my radio out the window if I hear don't forget about me one more time. 2 - there is nothing that sets it apart anymore. 'Oldies' still work. you take that away, and it sounds just like any other station out there. might as well just download their playlist onto your iphone and get it commercial free. If it didn't have scott, I wonder if it would be doing as well as it is now. a good morning show tends to keep people on the same dial out of habit.

as for nash.. I never cared for country music myself. how do songs about pick up trucks and mud flaps relate to the NY area? I could care less if that one goes. problem is, it'd just be replaced by more of the same dullness.

 

[chrocket87]

If Cumulus flips Nash, which I don't see happening anytime soon, I think they'll try to recreate some of the WKQX magic in New York.

 

[DOB]

Hey I love 60s music, some of the best songs ever made, but today in 2015 oldies just don't work anymore in major or medium markets. Even in small markets it is a difficult go. You need a strong sales team that has some amazing relationships with the local businesses that really believe in radio. Major and medium markets live on agency buys and they wont buy a station that isn't a strong performer in the key demos, and playing oldies makes good numbers in those key demos unattainable unfortunately.

A good adult hits station can sprinkle in some 60s songs but it's going to be the burnt ones that we are sick of. The ones that the key demos know very well and love.

OGL is Philly is having issues, they play 60s but will have to let them go to get back into decent 25-54 shape. I do think that their issues were magnified by letting talent go that the market loved and were devoted to.

 

[K.M. Richards]

Most of the most popular music in the area from the late 70s through 80s is not getting play. A Jack type of adult hits format that focuses on the rhythmic hits that all the market leaders played in the past that is certainly under utilized in the market now could do very well.

CBS is a big believer in music research, including auditorium testing. If a song isn't playing on CBS-FM, it ain't testing well.

Past performance of a song does not measure whether people want to hear it or not today. Some of the biggest hits as currents simply do not test well and as a result will not be played.

Message board opinions are not used as research.

 

[DOB]

CBS is a big believer in music research, including auditorium testing. If a song isn't playing on CBS-FM, it ain't testing well.

Past performance of a song does not measure whether people want to hear it or not today. Some of the biggest hits as currents simply do not test well and as a result will not be played.

Message board opinions are not used as research.

First off cute little straw man, "Message board opinions are not used as research." if it made you feel better then I'm all for it, but no such nonsense was ever said by me.

This is obviously not correct "If a song isn't playing on CBS-FM, it ain't testing well". There are plenty of well testing songs that cbs-fm doesn't play as they don't think they fit their format with the other songs they play.
Take Lisa Lisa Cult Jam "Can you feel the beat". It does test very well and that is why it is played on lite fm and even ktu. That's a New York song, most markets it wont test, it is unknown in those markets, not New York. However it doesn't fit the sound of CBS-FM with all the other songs they are playing.

CBS-fm is very classic rock heavy for New York, they obviously are going after q1043 with this approach. The numbers are good so they should do it, but it does leave a hole that I mentioned for an adult hits station that leans rhythmic and is not as old as cbs-fm is. I mentioned cbs-fm to show what they are not doing as in the hole that is available because of it, I guess it is easier to respond with the fictitious I'm saying CBS-fm should change, again nothing I've said, nothing in my post says such a thing, just the hole that is open.

It goes without saying, CBS-fm is playing songs like Orleans "dance with me", so the rhythmic songs I'm talking about wont fit for CBS-FM. Many of these songs were played on ktu when they singed on at 1035, they had great success with them so yeah they test very well, they are well known and well liked. A very very small few may have fallen out of favor, that's what a music test is for.

Everyone knows that many songs that were hits in the past don't test today, but to conclude that all of them don't test because they are not played on CBS-FM is silly. It would be far too much for 1011 to take on these songs with what the play now, they just don't all play well together. That is exactly why it is a viable option to create a station that can own these songs that don't have a home now, along with the songs that fit which are being played by 1011, 1067 and even 1035. Late 70s through the 90s, emphasis on the 80s, and very selective with the 90s. There will be some songs that will test well from the 90s that wont fit, so just like cbs-fm you will define your format and play all the best testing songs that work within those confines. Just as lite fm is doing, they are selective about what they play beyond just how a song tests. They are much more upbeat "harder" than they have ever been, but there certainly is a limit and a line they wont cross. Music tests are just a tool, anyone can do them, some better than others, but it will always be more about how a smart programmer formulates a playlist of the best songs for their format, their niche, and the demos they serve.

 

[davideduardo]

Everyone knows that many songs that were hits in the past don't test today, but to conclude that all of them don't test because they are not played on CBS-FM is silly.

Unless CBS shared their test results with you, you do not know that the songs that CBS-FM does not play may test well but are not played due to fit.

It's more likely that CBS-FM tests against its "super core" and focuses on P1s and heavy P2s. It would be hard for me to imagine that any song that tested well against the core would not be played.

And the fact that they are playing the harder songs simply shows that they decided to fish where the most fish are; the format or variant you suggest likely does not not pan out in an ATU-style format research project.

 

[Steve Green NEPA]

After having read dozens of posts here and elsewhere about the wisdom of, and the resistance to, tight playlists and moving-through-the-demo-windows libraries, I'm wondering how much research could be culled from callers to businessnes being put on hold.

Or maybe there is a study already ?

We've been put on hold here numerous times. Like the old Prairie Home Companion bit went: 'Your call is important to us. Please stay on the line. You are caller number .../ three / ... thousand ... and.... /fifty .....four.'

Sometimes we'll get some string ensemble playing between those irritating messages. It isn't unpleasant. Sometimes there is some fare that can only be described as Weather Channel music (and I make my wife's eyes roll when I back-talk, 'Your LOCAL forecast.....')

Wouldn't these pregant telephone/waiting-room pauses, even for unlikely businesses like Home Depot and Geisinger's hospitals, be put to better use if auditorium test pop songs were played instead and metered? For the desired demo? Then the overall results can be gauged more accurately.

* * * * * * *

Other thoughts:

......... @ DOB : Love your stuff. You've always got your thinking earphones on. But I gotta go 'corporate' here on ya. New York City does not need another music station aimed at 35-45.

......... @ KM Richards : You are always a treat to read as well. I love ya like a brother. But I gotta ask -- if message board opinions are chuckled at and dismissed as research, then what possible use is there for professionals such as yourself to be culled by reading our skanky editorials? I count at least four professional successful radio consultants lurking on the NYC boards alone. So can some of us ex-industry pork chops with the crystal radios and the headsets send you folks a bill -- a nominal fee -- for services almost rendered?

......... Reciprocally: @ Shredder: One of the grandest station premises I recall hearing in rather recent times was Alice 104.5 in Philly. That snarky, greasy guy who did the liners like, 'Hi. This is Alice' was almost in itself enough to make me buy the premise. But the music repetition killed it for me.

Anyway, there are on-off buttons, volume controls and tuning dials for us all. I'm just amused at how so many people (including myself) can manage to get their veins athrob -- and that's both people in management and DJ types -- about the fate of stations that seem to annoy and torment former industry types.

That includes folks like me, who consider these conflicts 'must reading' in the morning, and, as a DXer and listener, get a kick out of them two-three-four times a day.

 

[K.M. Richards]

......... @ KM Richards : You are always a treat to read as well. I love ya like a brother. But I gotta ask -- if message board opinions are chuckled at and dismissed as research, then what possible use is there for professionals such as yourself to be culled by reading our skanky editorials? I count at least four professional successful radio consultants lurking on the NYC boards alone. So can some of us ex-industry pork chops with the crystal radios and the headsets send you folks a bill -- a nominal fee -- for services almost rendered?

Thanks for the chuckle, Steve. Humor is most welcomed after some of the stuff I read here. David and I will be forming a partnership exclusively for the purpose of sending out those bills.

 

[davideduardo]

......... @ KM Richards : You are always a treat to read as well. I love ya like a brother. But I gotta ask -- if message board opinions are chuckled at and dismissed as research, then what possible use is there for professionals such as yourself to be culled by reading our skanky editorials? I count at least four professional successful radio consultants lurking on the NYC boards alone. So can some of us ex-industry pork chops with the crystal radios and the headsets send you folks a bill -- a nominal fee -- for services almost rendered? .

I learn a great deal from these boards. If I disagree with a position or opinion, in order to respond I have to research and collect data. Often that makes me look at things I would not ordinarily look into and the result is often a new insight or two.

And reading some of the posts is a lesson in how urban legends and non-truths propagate.

 

[DOB]

Thanks for the response Steve. You are right another station targetted at 35-45 is overkill but you gotta go where the money is and the young end in NYC is even better covered than this demo is with 1003, 923, 971, 1051, and also 1035 1027 and 955. Most of these also do very well 35-45 too.

Just take 947, what could you do with it? Clearly Country is a failure, seems Cumulus has at the least scaled back on their Nash initiative and a stick that mostly serves the #1 market shouldn't be wasted this way.
The format I described has the potential to do very well in those key adult demos. Even if it is done half a##ed as Cumulus would probably do it, it would still do much better than Nash is currently. If done to its full potential it could easily be top 5 women 25-54. The signal is an issue that from where I'm at I can't fully research the limitations.
There are a great amount of songs that right now are too hot for lite and cbs-fm, yet too old for ktu as it is now. Ktu played many of these songs when it signed on in 1996 and got some great ratings with them. Now you aren't going to get those numbers, but you will certainly get a station that will make more money than Nash is right now. Making more money is an improvement.

I've worked in radio for over 15 years, never full time as seeing friends get fired for exceeding expectations told me it was not a full time industry to get into, but after all I've seen I will take the opinions of those who work in radio with a grain of salt. I know they don't maximize their potential, and they flaw their research with predetermined conclusions, like the Scientists who pick and choose the data that advances their argument and keeps the funding rolling in.

I think classic hip hop would get incredible numbers off the bat if done correctly for NYC but it would fade, maybe you could manage a true hits and throwbacks station but there is more money to be made with the mass appeal format I mentioned. A true NYC station playing the right pop and rhythmic songs from the late 70s through 2000. Even upping it a bit could work as well, but you don't want to play anything after 2010 for sure as that music is very well covered already.

 

[TheBigA]

Clearly Country is a failure, seems Cumulus has at the least scaled back on their Nash initiative and a stick that mostly serves the #1 market shouldn't be wasted this way.

They really haven't changed a thing, as far as I can see. And I have no reason to believe they'll abandon this format in NYC. They still have a lot invested in the format and national platform, and they have nothing else ready to replace it.

 

[Barry]

Thanks for the response Steve. You are right another station targetted at 35-45 is overkill but you gotta go where the money is and the young end in NYC is even better covered than this demo is with 1003, 923, 971, 1051, and also 1035 1027 and 955. Most of these also do very well 35-45 too.

Just take 947, what could you do with it? Clearly Country is a failure, seems Cumulus has at the least scaled back on their Nash initiative and a stick that mostly serves the #1 market shouldn't be wasted this way.
The format I described has the potential to do very well in those key adult demos. Even if it is done half a##ed as Cumulus would probably do it, it would still do much better than Nash is currently. If done to its full potential it could easily be top 5 women 25-54. The signal is an issue that from where I'm at I can't fully research the limitations.
There are a great amount of songs that right now are too hot for lite and cbs-fm, yet too old for ktu as it is now. Ktu played many of these songs when it signed on in 1996 and got some great ratings with them. Now you aren't going to get those numbers, but you will certainly get a station that will make more money than Nash is right now. Making more money is an improvement.

I've worked in radio for over 15 years, never full time as seeing friends get fired for exceeding expectations told me it was not a full time industry to get into, but after all I've seen I will take the opinions of those who work in radio with a grain of salt. I know they don't maximize their potential, and they flaw their research with predetermined conclusions, like the Scientists who pick and choose the data that advances their argument and keeps the funding rolling in.

I think classic hip hop would get incredible numbers off the bat if done correctly for NYC but it would fade, maybe you could manage a true hits and throwbacks station but there is more money to be made with the mass appeal format I mentioned. A true NYC station playing the right pop and rhythmic songs from the late 70s through 2000. Even upping it a bit could work as well, but you don't want to play anything after 2010 for sure as that music is very well covered already.

The format DOB is proposing for WNSH 94.7 seems similar to that of the largely forgotten WJMN, Jammin' 105, which lasted about 3 years, before it switched to urban music and became Power 105.1. An article about the Jammin Oldies format in Wikipedia suggests it was something of a radio programming fad, about 15 years ago. The stations' initially decent ratings tended to decline as the novelty of the songs wore off and people grew tired of them.
Nash FM may have tepid ratings within NYC, but has apparently been doing quite decent in NJ, in rated areas such as M/S/U, and Morristown. It has also been on the rise in LI, despite a rather weak signal there. As sister station WPLJ has traditionally been most popular in the suburbs, Nash may be a good fit in terms of selling to sponsors looking for a cluster to reach suburban demos. And as a current based format, Country does hot have the fatigue factor of a Jammin type station.

 

[K.M. Richards]

Two words about DOB, Barry:

Armchair quarterback.

(And one with the annoying habit of not including the decimal point in FM frequencies.)

 

[K.M. Richards]

I've worked in radio for over 15 years, never full time as seeing friends get fired for exceeding expectations told me it was not a full time industry to get into, but after all I've seen I will take the opinions of those who work in radio with a grain of salt. I know they don't maximize their potential, and they flaw their research with predetermined conclusions, like the Scientists who pick and choose the data that advances their argument and keeps the funding rolling in.

And now, allow me to address you directly, DOB.

You are 180 degrees off in that "observation". Consultants who do not maximize their potential don't get renewals on their personal services contracts with stations. Consultants who flaw research are quickly discovered to be frauds and the same result occurs. Consultants who do not improve their client station's performance don't last very long.

Yes, there is a bit of "pick and choose" with the researched data ... all the research really does, in the long run, is remove songs from consideration that would result in listener tune-out in unacceptable amounts. But a program director at a station without a consultant is going to do the same thing, if he has research data at his disposal.

But the funding does not keep rolling in if a consultant (or a PD) "flaws" the research. Quite the opposite.

I am relieved that you never made a full-time career out of radio. The logic behind your conclusion about 94.7 (that's read "ninety-four point seven") is riddled with personal bias and does not appear to have been researched in terms of ratings and revenue at all. As has been pointed out, your proposed format was tried in NYC before, peaked quickly in the ratings, and disappeared. No station manager is going to attempt to resurrect a format with that track record. Especially not in market #1.

Here's something for you to consider: Classic hip-hop, as a format, is already on a down trend nationwide. And in some markets, it never caught on in the first place.

My final thought: If you take our opinions with "a grain of salt" I will need the whole damn salt shaker when reading your posts.

 

[davideduardo]

I've worked in radio for over 15 years, never full time as seeing friends get fired for exceeding expectations told me it was not a full time industry to get into, but after all I've seen I will take the opinions of those who work in radio with a grain of salt. I know they don't maximize their potential, and they flaw their research with predetermined conclusions, like the Scientists who pick and choose the data that advances their argument and keeps the funding rolling in.

Quite honestly, with an attitude like that coupled with the underlying cynicism you demonstrate, I doubt the true professionals in the business would wish to hire you.

When radio stations do research, they do it to determine what music to play (music tests) and how to image and position a station and its talent (perceptual tests). Those projects are usually done by professional research firms like Edison, Coleman, Harker and others and the results are implemented per the guidance offered in those projects. Personally, I've never seen research done to confirm someone's personal wishes; while that may have happened I'd say that there are a few bad apples in any industry.

The result of doing bad research is the failure of a station and that, as a consequence, generally gets a bunch of people fired.

I think classic hip hop would get incredible numbers off the bat if done correctly for NYC but it would fade, maybe you could manage a true hits and throwbacks station but there is more money to be made with the mass appeal format I mentioned. A true NYC station playing the right pop and rhythmic songs from the late 70s through 2000. Even upping it a bit could work as well, but you don't want to play anything after 2010 for sure as that music is very well covered already.

Such a format... or any rhythmic format... depends on an ethnic core. It might lean African American or it might lean Hispanic or maybe be a blend of both. But the Nash signal does not cover either core group any too well and it would fail. And, of course, there is the factor mentioned by Barry of the format fitting the "Been there, done that" Jammin' Oldies mold. It burns out, and the songs in general have more "oh wow" power than staying power.

 

[davideduardo]

(And one with the annoying habit of not including the decimal point in FM frequencies.)

Oh, he was talking about FM stations? I thought he was naming AM frequencies in Europe!

 

[Hdradioisthefuture]

Wow, never seen so many kiss a$$es on a message board before I looked at this thread.

 

[davideduardo]

Wow, never seen so many kiss a$$es on a message board before I looked at this thread.

You just woke up in a misanthropic mood, or is there something specific your want to say about the discussion?

 

[rjt45]

So useless.