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94.9 FM in Philadelphia
- Thread starter e-dawg
- Start date
I
InSearchOfGear
Guest
MikeF said:
Although I'm no expert on allocations, I believe WZZO could move to Philly on that frequncy with a DA to protect WAYV if it's far enough away. Might have to rimshot it in from the West/Northwest but in theory I think it could be done. Anything keeping AYV from going to 94.9? Are first adjacent rules as stringent as co-channel? I'm pretty sure Philly is far enough from Trenton for adequate 2nd adjacent spacing in this scenario.
Experts? Could you weight in on this one?
MikeF said:
3rd adjecent protection has recently been recinded by congress. Allentown and Atlantic City are beyond 1st adjecent primary contor protection.
However these translators and WRSD LP would all have to be moved.
W235AP 94.9 FM, Radnor, PA
Vertical Effective Radiated Power 2 Watts
http://radio-locator.com/cgi-bin/pat?call=W235AP&service=FX&status=L&hours=U
W235AT 94.9 FM, Coatesville, PAVertical Effective Radiated Power 4 Watts
http://radio-locator.com/cgi-bin/pat?call=W235AT&service=FX&status=L&hours=U
WRSD 94.9 FM, Folsom, PA
Effective Radiated Power 14 Watts
http://radio-locator.com/info/WRSD-FM
Sam Lit said:
That only applies to an LPFM wanting to operate 3rd-adjacent to a full-power station. There's no change in the 3rd-adj protections between full-power stations. WZZO can't move south because of WAYV. WAYV can't move west because of WZZO. WPST can't move anywhere because of WDAC, and vice-versa, and even if they could, there's 94.7 in Delaware to deal with. Even 94.9 in Harrisburg figures into the spacings.
I
InSearchOfGear
Guest
Scott Fybush said:
OK, so with Atlantic City beyond 1st adjacent protection, and all translators and LPFM's aside, If WZZO didn't exist, would there's be a theorectical hole at 94.9 big enough for a Class B or even a B1 with City Grade coverage of the metro? What if you reversed the scenario and moved WAYV in at 94.9 and left ZZO where it is? Could it be done?
InSearchOfGear said:
Negative. Let's say we tried to move the WZZO license into Philly, even as an A on 94.9. We'll use Roxborough as a hypothetical site for our 94.9. It's 151 km from there to WRBT 94.9 in Harrisburg. You need 178 km for full spacing between even an A and a co-channel B. Roxborough is also too close to Atlantic City - you need 113 km between a first-adjacent A/B pair, and it's only 99 km. Move away from WAYV and you're even closer to WRBT, and vice versa. (It's also too close to 94.7 in Delaware.)
I
InSearchOfGear
Guest
Scott Fybush said:
I'm sure you're aware that the FCC doesn't require that your signal emanate from any existing site, only that you can acheive interference free City Grade coverage for a particular municipality. Given that, you can locate elsewhere with a DA. There are several examples of this throut the country.
So, let me rephrase and clarify the question. Is a City Grade coutour, even for an A, possible for any nearby town to the Philly metro, given the previously described scenario? If not producing a City grade signal over the mertro, even a rimshot with marketable coverage?
InSearchOfGear said:
Yes, I'm well aware of that. That's what's known as "73.215 short-spacing," and it's useful in some cases.
BUT - and this is a very big "but" - in order to use 73.215, you still have to show that there exists some location (even if you're not using it as your actual transmitter site) that's fully-spaced to everything else on the dial without the use of a DA. That location has to be at least theoretically usable as a transmitter location - you can't put it offshore, for instance, or in a national park - and it has to provide theoretical 70 dBu coverage of your chosen city of license.
Because of the existing short-spacings, no such site exists anywhere in, near, or even at some distance from Philly. Get far enough away to avoid the WRBT short-spacing and you're too close to WAYV, and vice-versa. Get far enough away from WDSD to clear that short-spacing and you're too close to WRBT. There's a short-spaced 95.1 in Baltimore, too, to contend with.
The only play that might work, and I don't have time to run all the numbers right now, might be to downgrade WAYV to 95.1A and then move WZZO into Philly on 94.9A. I suspect even that would end up short-spaced to Dover on 94.7, and given the reduced station values, it wouldn't be worth losing all the value that exists right now in the Atlantic City and Lehigh Valley markets.
The 73.215 rule is structured to minimize creation of new stations. It does allow viable allotments greater flexibility in transmitter site selection.
Nick said:
Once more with feeling, no.
Even if you downgraded WAYV from B to A, it would still be short to WDSD 94.7.
"Doesn't seem to interfere" and "meets FCC spacing rules" are two separate beasts. A 92.9A in Trenton would be short-spaced to a whole slew of stations: WXTU, WMGS in Scranton, WPAT-FM, WMMR, and probably WOBM-FM, too.
Nick said:
Gee, the W251BH transmitter site seems a little far from Philly. But who know's it might have good skip.
W251BH-FM 98.1 MHz
Montgomery, West Virginia
I'd like to jump in here....All of these scenarios require a City of License change. To change a COL one must present in the application a fully spaced (73.207 spacings) allotment coordinate location...that is...a theoretical site that is fully spaced to everything using an omnidirectional antenna, 73.215 and DA's not allowed to be factored in. To make this work would require three downgrades. One would need convince the FCC that one upgrade is worth three downgrades, that's a tough sell. With a COL change one still needs to show a Section 307b showing indicating a public benefit. Also note that 73.215 is limited by 73.215(e) which is a special mileage table limiting the application of 73.215. The FCC NEVER waivers the 73.215(e) table. I've come up against this one repeatedly.
KF
KF
I
InSearchOfGear
Guest
Kev, that's pretty obvious. Hence why I posited "is there a municipality near Philly". (read: potential COL)
I think all parties to this discussion are obviously in-the-know about the process. We're just not sitting here with sliderules and transmitter coordinates and mileage maps and an FCC law reference. That's where you come in. Ain't that the beauty of a forum like this?
Now, can we get back to the technical and theoretical discussion? Thanks.
And now the continuation and probable conclusion of Allocations Chess.
A few years back there was a move-in to the Kansas City market (with a change in COL) that required (and I'm sure at much expense) several regional stations to change frequencies or downgarde their class or go with a DA. Obviously there's a consulting engineer out there that really earned his pay on that one, planting a C-1, non-d, right smack in the middle of the city.
Since the theoretical scenarios produced by those of us who aren't Kevin and Mr. Flybush are based solely upon conjecture, hence the questions in the first place, Could either of you present a technical scenario where this proposal would be possible with modifications to a handful of regional facilities?
Just for fun, guys. ;-)
I think all parties to this discussion are obviously in-the-know about the process. We're just not sitting here with sliderules and transmitter coordinates and mileage maps and an FCC law reference. That's where you come in. Ain't that the beauty of a forum like this?
Now, can we get back to the technical and theoretical discussion? Thanks.
And now the continuation and probable conclusion of Allocations Chess.
A few years back there was a move-in to the Kansas City market (with a change in COL) that required (and I'm sure at much expense) several regional stations to change frequencies or downgarde their class or go with a DA. Obviously there's a consulting engineer out there that really earned his pay on that one, planting a C-1, non-d, right smack in the middle of the city.
Since the theoretical scenarios produced by those of us who aren't Kevin and Mr. Flybush are based solely upon conjecture, hence the questions in the first place, Could either of you present a technical scenario where this proposal would be possible with modifications to a handful of regional facilities?
Just for fun, guys. ;-)
InSearchOfGear said:
There's no "L" in "Fybush." (Sorry, pet peeve...
The move-ins in the midwest and other less population-dense areas are possible because you don't have to get too far outside the big cities there to find areas where stations have some wiggle room to move. That's just not the case along the eastern seaboard. Stations are packed in too tightly, often with grandfathered short-spacings.
That said, could you do it? If you wanted to buy 94.9 in Harrisburg, 95.1 in Atlantic City, 95.1 in Allentown and 94.7 in Dover, knock all of them down to class A signals from their present class B status (thus destroying a LOT of value you'd never get back), then, yes, I believe you could move that 95.1 Allentown to 94.9 somewhere south of Philadelphia (to avoid short-spacing WPST and WDAC) as a class A that would serve only a portion of the market.
And as Kevin notes, that assumes you could persuade the FCC that you're creating a preferable allocations scenario in the process. That would be a tough sell in this case, and all for a pretty minimal return on investment.
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