96.3...VERY INTERESTING!

[TonySantiago]

Checking out that aircheck the first three songs were Pitbull "Room Service" and Black Eyed Peas "Boom Boom Pow" and "I Got A Feeling" (back to back), current dance/rhythmic tracks. Spanish identifiers were spoken in there and there have been some salsa going on in there as well. Listening today, a bit of both going on.

Maybe this is early to say but could it be that they want to lean the 96.3 in a more English direction yet still be a Spanish station? Granted La Kalle did play their share of English tracks here and there and at times you would hear the on-air personalities speak "Spanglish". I don't think there is going to be a DRAMATIC change going on here....I still think things will basically remain the same, so-to-speak. I'm just wondering if this station will wind up being the Spanish version of a "92.3 NOW".

 

[pjc1961]

Such as it is (quite primitive), here's the link to the website for WCAA-FM-96.3 New York:

http://www.univision.com/content/channel.jhtml?chid=9486&schid=9497

Besides the "Listen Live" button, there's an embedded video with the headline "This Thursday October 15th 6AM". I assume that's when they'll take the wraps off their "new station". As Tony Santiago mentioned, probably a tweak of the format that was in already in place.

 

[davideduardo]

I don't think there is going to be a DRAMATIC change going on here....I still think things will basically remain the same, so-to-speak. I'm just wondering if this station will wind up being the Spanish version of a "92.3 NOW".

You are as wrong about this as you were about the viability of dance.

 

[neo11]

I don't think there is going to be a DRAMATIC change going on here....I still think things will basically remain the same, so-to-speak. I'm just wondering if this station will wind up being the Spanish version of a "92.3 NOW".

You are as wrong about this as you were about the viability of dance.

The haters just can't get the haterade out of their system.

 

[d21ofnj]

I don't think there is going to be a DRAMATIC change going on here....I still think things will basically remain the same, so-to-speak. I'm just wondering if this station will wind up being the Spanish version of a "92.3 NOW".

You are as wrong about this as you were about the viability of dance.

Okay then, what plans do you think that 96.3 will have? Are you expecting something as dull as Que Bueno to make a dent to La Mega? What is your issue with dance or dance leaning music? I would love for 96.3 to be on the dance lean side (raggaeton/rhythmic i.e. Pitbull, Don Omar, Calle 13) more than on the typical salsa/merangue side which is what La Mega mostly plays. Univision got themselves a huge signal, and they should use it well.

 

[davideduardo]

The haters just can't get the haterade out of their system.

A dose of realism hardly constitures hating.

Reality check: name one successful dance station in the US.

Note: in commercial radio, success is defined as being a commercial success (redundancy intentional and done intentionally)

 

[TonySantiago]

David,

You may have 50 years in radio. And perhaps in those times, radio held a STRONG place in society. If THIS argument came up even as recent as 20 years ago, you would have a point because radio as an industry was strong then. Not anymore.

You are going to judge the viability of dance based on the numbers presented in front of you. In that sense, I cannot blame you because the majority of you in this industry can only see things in that manner without going "outside the box" to get a true indication of what the fans REALLY want. And we don't have to just use dance music as an example. For NYC, country holds a good argument too.

I'm not going to repeat the Pulse situation again, it's been noted here. Yet, IMHO, all you are going to see is a 1.0 or less without taking all of the anomalies into consideration. And like I said, it's not just YOU. And in that sense Pulse HAS been a success. Maybe the issue is that corporate radio is AFRAID to go up on something. And that's why commercial radio has totally become out of touch with the listeners.

Regarding the 96.3 situation, I only see this as a potential "tweak"; they have the stronger signal now so perhaps you have to go a little different to get an audience that WCAA couldn't get before with their 105.9 dial position. And I think I could be right based on more English adds than the station had before. I'm not saying the station is going away with Spanish. Far from it. But here's the reality....reggaeton is "dead", so where do you go now to get that youth?

I still see dance music as big potential...always will. The reality is there and for those that want to grab at it, please do so

 

[davideduardo]

You may have 50 years in radio. And perhaps in those times, radio held a STRONG place in society. If THIS argument came up even as recent as 20 years ago, you would have a point because radio as an industry was strong then. Not anymore.

Certainly radio does not have the attention it had a decade or two ago, and definitely not what it had in the 50's, 60's and 70's. There are just too many alternatives for entertainment, ranging from video games to all manner of niche video channels on cable and satellite.

But radio is a viable business. It is also a very efficient way of reaching a huge percentage of the population... as much as 95% in most markets. So to dismiss radio is insane; to establish a different place for the medium is appropriate and prudent.

You are going to judge the viability of dance based on the numbers presented in front of you. In that sense, I cannot blame you because the majority of you in this industry can only see things in that manner without going "outside the box" to get a true indication of what the fans REALLY want. And we don't have to just use dance music as an example. For NYC, country holds a good argument too.

Those outside the industry often do not know and understand the lengths station owners and operators go to in order to find programming options and opportunities. A "format search" is not a bunch of guys in suits sitting around a conference room table... it's a very precise system for determining openings in a market and whether there is a perception of those openings being filled and how well other stations do in covering a seemingly open position. Were dance viable... were country viable... or were Spanish language rock viable... one or more operators would have discovered the opportunity and rushed to fill it.

The fact that none of the mentioned formats is being done on a viable facility indicates that there is not an opportunity, based on taking the consultation to the listeners.

I'm not going to repeat the Pulse situation again, it's been noted here. Yet, IMHO, all you are going to see is a 1.0 or less without taking all of the anomalies into consideration. And like I said, it's not just YOU. And in that sense Pulse HAS been a success. Maybe the issue is that corporate radio is AFRAID to go up on something. And that's why commercial radio has totally become out of touch with the listeners.

Listeners who are really fanatics of a format listen waaaaaaaaaaaaay outside the normal coverage area. And even then, Pulse could not pick up a salable share and attract significant advertiser interest. When we see that dance, even on major signals such as Cox's Party in Miami, is not successful as a business and audience model, we have to stop insisting that the format will work. Doing something over and over and over in hopes of a different outcome is, in fact, a simple definition of insanity.

Regarding the 96.3 situation, I only see this as a potential "tweak"; they have the stronger signal now so perhaps you have to go a little different to get an audience that WCAA couldn't get before with their 105.9 dial position. And I think I could be right based on more English adds than the station had before. I'm not saying the station is going away with Spanish.

Since you don't know what the station will do on the 15th, you will just have to wait.

But here's the reality....reggaeton is "dead", so where do you go now to get that youth?

Reggaetón is hardly dead. From Chile (where 20 of the top 40 on Los Cuarenta Principales are Reggaetón) to every market in the US, reggaetón is a viable ingredient in 25-44 year old (or the broader 18-49) Spanish contemporary format. Like contemporary (call it CHR, Top 40, or whatever) stations everywhere, the mix of different sub-genres changes according to what the moment's hit's are. Univision's sister station, WKAQ-FM in Puerto Rico, currently #1 in a 120 station market, has been CHR for 41 years, but the mix has gone from over 60% salsa to around 70% pop and ballad to 50% English language songs in different years and decades.

Focusing on genres negates the fact that CHR genres are dynamic. Reggaetón is a really important 25-44 demo component today for any contemporary station anywhere in Latin America! It's hardly dead.

I still see dance music as big potential...always will. The reality is there and for those that want to grab at it, please do so

However, the listener support in the Us is just not enough to sustain such a station. The question has been asked and answered.

 

[JayD]

I then invite you to go to any Latin club these days.. Of course you will hear the usual old Reggaeton songs that were big a few years ago but Dance gets prime time play. Latins have always been receptive to dance. Unfortunately, radio never played any... now that dance is in vogue again, you will see many stations play a form of it. Reggaeton is however dead stateside...(for now)

 

[TonySantiago]

Breaking it back.....

Certainly radio does not have the attention it had a decade or two ago, and definitely not what it had in the 50's, 60's and 70's. There are just too many alternatives for entertainment, ranging from video games to all manner of niche video channels on cable and satellite.

But radio is a viable business. It is also a very efficient way of reaching a huge percentage of the population... as much as 95% in most markets. So to dismiss radio is insane; to establish a different place for the medium is appropriate and prudent.

But the reality here....a lot of the younger demos bailed out of the medium because they are not being offered something that they can associate to. Sure, in New York, you have a Z-100, a 92.3 Now, Hot 97, Pulse, etc. and in that sense we are luckier than other markets. Yet more of those in that demo are listening to their digital media players, listening to tunes at their convenience, that radio isn't touching. Maybe the industry CAN be saved with phone "apps", who knows....HD certainly didn't work.

Those outside the industry often do not know and understand the lengths station owners and operators go to in order to find programming options and opportunities. A "format search" is not a bunch of guys in suits sitting around a conference room table... it's a very precise system for determining openings in a market and whether there is a perception of those openings being filled and how well other stations do in covering a seemingly open position. Were dance viable... were country viable... or were Spanish language rock viable... one or more operators would have discovered the opportunity and rushed to fill it.

The fact that none of the mentioned formats is being done on a viable facility indicates that there is not an opportunity, based on taking the consultation to the listeners.

I may not be in the industry but I have studied enough to know that a format flip doesn't occur overnight. And in New York, someone did discover the dance format as an option and we have Pulse. I also think there are a lot of people in the industry that have NO idea about dance music outside of "paper", and even that, "paper" doesn't explain it properly. But yes, I am completely aware of how format changes are decided. So what if I'm not in the industry. I certainly wouldn't go through the lengths of what I do without studying all aspects of things.[/quote]

Listeners who are really fanatics of a format listen waaaaaaaaaaaaay outside the normal coverage area. And even then, Pulse could not pick up a salable share and attract significant advertiser interest. When we see that dance, even on major signals such as Cox's Party in Miami, is not successful as a business and audience model, we have to stop insisting that the format will work. Doing something over and over and over in hopes of a different outcome is, in fact, a simple definition of insanity.

Then you have 944,000+ fanatics here. And regarding advertising on the station....back to the anomalies. And I will say it again....give Pulse a frequency above 92 with a strong signal and a budget for promotion and marketing, the station would be in the Top 5 here, guaranteed. And since you brought up Miami, the reason why Cox did what they did is because a rock station flipped format in that market and they went for the immediate void. The Party numbers were actually good. Could they have varied the format a bit, certainly...but then that can be argued with a majority of stations. Yet the numbers were good, and let's face it....back to what YOU said about programmers with format changes and studies. If the station was successful with their classical format, which it was before the Party flip, then why change?

Since you don't know what the station will do on the 15th, you will just have to wait.

Just as all of us will wait. I'm just sayin', if what we are hearing now could be the direction 96.3 goes, then it will be more of an English/Spanish bounce. But the personalities, sweepers, etc will still mainly be in Spanish. I'm not seeing anything dramatic here...I just think, based on what I've been hearing, it will be a "tweak".

Reggaetón is hardly dead. From Chile (where 20 of the top 40 on Los Cuarenta Principales are Reggaetón) to every market in the US, reggaetón is a viable ingredient in 25-44 year old (or the broader 18-49) Spanish contemporary format. Like contemporary (call it CHR, Top 40, or whatever) stations everywhere, the mix of different sub-genres changes according to what the moment's hit's are. Univision's sister station, WKAQ-FM in Puerto Rico, currently #1 in a 120 station market, has been CHR for 41 years, but the mix has gone from over 60% salsa to around 70% pop and ballad to 50% English language songs in different years and decades.

Focusing on genres negates the fact that CHR genres are dynamic. Reggaetón is a really important 25-44 demo component today for any contemporary station anywhere in Latin America! It's hardly dead.

David, I go to VARIOUS clubs in the New York area....dance, Latin, you name it. I do that so as I can really study the crowds to see what directions things have to go for us. I hear what the DJ spins. On some of the Latin clubs, yeah...they spin some reggaetón and you do have some people dance to it. But in comparison to about 2003 or so, the amount of tracks a DJ spins with reggaetón has dwindled dramatically. From a DJ's point of view, he/she has to keep a dance floor packed because if people clear, it doesn't look good for the DJ and he/she is out of a gig. Point is, in 2003 reggaeton (stateside...thanks JaYD!) was HUGE! You couldn't escape those same beats over and over again. La Kalle was created to tap into that craze and yeah, it helped artists like Daddy Yankee get onto Billboard! But now, outside of Puerto Rico, the sound fizzled out. Okay, perhaps the sound isn't "dead" but it certainly is not like it was 5 years ago or so. That was the peak. And while 96.3 may play a track or two of reggaetón, it has leaned more on the salsa, merengue, bachatta. And if they are going to throw in some more English rhythmic in there, then hey...it still serves the Latin community that wants that too.

However, the listener support in the Us is just not enough to sustain such a station. The question has been asked and answered.

This is regarding me saying that dance music has a huge potential. And I won't go long here. Granted, not every market in the U.S. can have a dance station. Understood. Though when I suggested that Top 40/CHR add about 2 or 3 dance tracks onto rotation, most in the industry flipped out. I don't think it is a question of listener support, as long as they are exposed to it. I see it as more of a "disdain" from the industry in this country regarding dance music in general and in that mindset, they don't want to touch it...for all the wrong reasons.

 

[davideduardo]

I then invite you to go to any Latin club these days.. Of course you will hear the usual old Reggaeton songs that were big a few years ago but Dance gets prime time play. Latins have always been receptive to dance. Unfortunately, radio never played any... now that dance is in vogue again, you will see many stations play a form of it. Reggaeton is however dead stateside...(for now)

The error here is the confusion of the club scene with the reality of radio.

In a club you have dim lights, booze, babes, and often an element of less legal pleasures. Clubs are, in essence, a mood changing environment, and escape. What a person hears and dances to in a club is not what they necessarily want to hear in morning drive.

Many years ago, the leading station in Puerto Rico had over a 30 share... and was all salsa. Yet in the clubs that played tropical (the vast majority) you heard over half merengue... because in the club atmosphere, merenge is simpler, easier to dance to, and more fun.

It's a slippery slope to use clubs as a barometer of what should be played on the radio.

 

[davideduardo]

But the reality here....a lot of the younger demos bailed out of the medium because they are not being offered something that they can associate to.

Actually, the younger demos (to me, that means 12-17 and 18-24) have not abandoned radio... over the course of the last 20 years, they have gradually listened less, but there is still considerable use of radio by both of those demos. The surprising thing is that no stations target 12-17 per se, yet teen usage is on the order of 92% weekly use.

Sure, in New York, you have a Z-100, a 92.3 Now, Hot 97, Pulse, etc. and in that sense we are luckier than other markets. Yet more of those in that demo are listening to their digital media players, listening to tunes at their convenience, that radio isn't touching.

Radio stations for the younger end of the sales demos, such as 18-34, exist in every multi-station market. I don't know of any rated market without some. And remember, not all younger demo persons like any form of pop music, whether it be Britney or dance or whatever. There are large percentages that listen to country, r&b, alternative rock, active rock, sports, AC, Hot AC, regional Mexican, etc., etc. and not anything in the broad genre that includes dance.

I may not be in the industry but I have studied enough to know that a format flip doesn't occur overnight. And in New York, someone did discover the dance format as an option and we have Pulse.

This may have been an option for the kind of facility that Pulse represents, but no full power NY FM to this point has found dance or country to be a real option. And yes, a change takes time as a format search takes around 90 days from the start of project design through interviewing and tabulation and presentation.

But taste does not change over a 3 to 6 month period, so the amount of time is irrelevant.

And since you brought up Miami, the reason why Cox did what they did is because a rock station flipped format in that market and they went for the immediate void. The Party numbers were actually good. Could they have varied the format a bit, certainly...but then that can be argued with a majority of stations. Yet the numbers were good, and let's face it....back to what YOU said about programmers with format changes and studies. If the station was successful with their classical format, which it was before the Party flip, then why change?

I presented some time ago the ratings trending... and Party peaked in its first half-year, and dwindled thereafter, The numbers were nowhere near "good" and the billing was dreadful. All this is in the context of an operation by one of the radio companies that gets it... Bob Neil is a programmer, and the other people surrounding him are programming aware.

WTMI was not successful as a classical station... it was undergoing the same issues as all classical stations have felt. It had slowly eroding numbers, and most of the listeners were over 55. Billing was declining and profitability was in jeopardy. This is the same thing that happened to stations ranging from KMZT in LA to WCLV in Cleveland and this is why the array of commercial classical stations is now a small handfull.

Just as all of us will wait. I'm just sayin', if what we are hearing now could be the direction 96.3 goes, then it will be more of an English/Spanish bounce. But the personalities, sweepers, etc will still mainly be in Spanish. I'm not seeing anything dramatic here...I just think, based on what I've been hearing, it will be a "tweak".

There are more formats that can be done in Spanish than in English. The issue is to what extremes a station in a place like NY can go and still serve a very varied constituency consisting of significant groups from at least 5 different countries, all of which have different core musical tastes.

Judging a "stunting" period is, of course, not rational. Were the format to be "tweeked" the station would not have blown off all the old listeners and would have simply "upgraded" to Kalle 2.0 with a better signal...

David, I go to VARIOUS clubs in the New York area....dance, Latin, you name it. I do that so as I can really study the crowds to see what directions things have to go for us. I hear what the DJ spins. On some of the Latin clubs, yeah...they spin some reggaetón and you do have some people dance to it. But in comparison to about 2003 or so, the amount of tracks a DJ spins with reggaetón has dwindled dramatically.

When I buy a club, I'll call you. Reggaetón, as an international genre is growing. Everywhere in Latin America there is more reggaetón being played than 5 years ago... and the genre has morphed into a variety of much more crossover flavors that are a big part of CHR. And pop stations in the US, which did not play reggaeton originally are now playing a good percentage of it.

But now, outside of Puerto Rico, the sound fizzled out.

Tell that to the listeners in Chile, where about half the playlists of CHRs is now reggaetón. Or in Argentina, or Perú or Colombia... where reggaetón is so strong that there are now local artists making big hits in the genre.

Your misunderstanding of the staying power of reggaetón and your dedication to "dance on the radio" show, in both cases, your inability to distinguish between clubs and radio.

 

[TheBigA]

I see it as more of a "disdain" from the industry in this country regarding dance music in general and in that mindset, they don't want to touch it...for all the wrong reasons.

That may be how you see it, but that's not how it is. This isn't about liking or not liking the music, or liking or not liking the people. That doesn't matter. All that matters is the money. Radio stations will play music they absolutely hate if it attracts money. The problem with dance music is that it makes for a great specialty show, or a great daypart. It's hard to build a 24/7 format around it. And dance isn't the only format that has this problem. I think Jack is a daypart format. It works great at some times of the day, bad at others. What radio stations look for are formats they can run 24/7. So I think it's smart for this station to play anglo dance music at certain times of the day. I think it appeals to their demo. It might even attract people who might not be Hispanic to a music that may be outside their culture just because it appeals to them. All that is good, and fits with what radio stations do.

 

[TonySantiago]

I'm going to keep this short and simple here.

1. Go buy that club and play reggaeton all you want here. It will do poorly if you stick to that. This is NOT Chile. It doesn't matter WHAT they do elsewhere. It's about here in the US we're talking about. If reggaeton is growing down there, beautiful. It's fizzling here. I'm not misunderstanding this one bit. Come back to this country. And for that matter, what CHR stations are you hearing playing this? I've heard NONE as of late.

2. There have been BIG dance music events happening here (Electric Zoo, Loveolution in San Francisco) that have had HUGE turnouts. People want this stuff. I'm not saying that the music should go as deep underground as SXM's 'Area' offerings. But the fact is, there has been more demand in this country for dance music than ever before. Unfortunately, there are very few in radio that understand this and that's part of the problem there...I'll admit.

 

[TheBigA]

Unfortunately, there are very few in radio that understand this and that's part of the problem there...I'll admit.

You're putting the blame in the wrong place. It's not a radio problem, it's an advertising problem. Fix that, and you'll solve the radio problem. Otherwise, it's just another fringe format for satellite and non-commercial radio.

Regarding country music, in the last ten days Taylor Swift and Keith Urban each sold out Madison Square Garden. Earlier this year, Kenny Chesney and Rascal Flatts did the same thing. The audiences are all under the age of 40, and very typical of the country audience. But it doesn't matter to advertisers, who don't see the format working in NY, and didn't support it when it was on the air, regardless of the ratings.

Don't get distracted by big dance events. That's not going to change anything. For years, everyone knew Hispanic radio could attract audiences...they just didn't think they could attract money. Now they know.

 

[davideduardo]

I'm going to keep this short and simple here.

1. Go buy that club and play reggaeton all you want here. It will do poorly if you stick to that. This is NOT Chile. It doesn't matter WHAT they do elsewhere. It's about here in the US we're talking about. If reggaeton is growing down there, beautiful. It's fizzling here. I'm not misunderstanding this one bit. Come back to this country. And for that matter, what CHR stations are you hearing playing this? I've heard NONE as of late.

CHRs playing reggaeton include WPPN, KLOL, KAMA, KESS, KMVK, WNUE, KLLE, KVVA, KSSE, WMGE, WRUM, KVIB, etc., etc., etc.

2. There have been BIG dance music events happening here (Electric Zoo, Loveolution in San Francisco) that have had HUGE turnouts. People want this stuff. I'm not saying that the music should go as deep underground as SXM's 'Area' offerings. But the fact is, there has been more demand in this country for dance music than ever before. Unfortunately, there are very few in radio that understand this and that's part of the problem there...I'll admit.

A successful gneral market station in NYC station has to cume about 1.5 million or more... preferably 2 million. Basing an opinion on how many people went to an event only shows that a few thousand people like live dance events. If show attendance were a determining factor, there would be Spanish language rock (rock en español) stations all over the US and also Latin America... there is, in fact, only one such station that is successful, and it is 5 or 6 thousand miles away from NY.

 

[TonySantiago]

CHRs playing reggaeton include WPPN, KLOL, KAMA, KESS, KMVK, WNUE, KLLE, KVVA, KSSE, WMGE, WRUM, KVIB, etc., etc., etc.

Playlists? Current tracks? Need the proof and if it is there, I'll shut up on that.

A successful general market station in NYC station has to cume about 1.5 million or more... preferably 2 million. Basing an opinion on how many people went to an event only shows that a few thousand people like live dance events. If show attendance were a determining factor, there would be Spanish language rock (rock en español) stations all over the US and also Latin America... there is, in fact, only one such station that is successful, and it is 5 or 6 thousand miles away from NY.

I originally didn't want to get in Pulse on this because I had wanted the subject to be about 96.3. Yet I did open the door so I'll keep going.....the ratings have GROWN regarding Pulse. Check the last couple of books. And I'll say it again for the 123,962,365th time. Put the station above 92 with a powerful signal....the 2 million+ cume will be there!

But back to the events.....if dance was doing poorly, then EVERY aspect of it would suffer....including the festival shows. If the shows I've mentioned had about 2,000 people in attendance, then yeah..you and others "got me" and yes, I would be "out of touch" if I hyped these to something that wasn't. However, that was not the case (and I was in attendance at Electric Zoo). Sure, a show attendance may not influence radio. But it does say something about the people attending...they love this stuff and CRAVE it. There was also a good amount of corporate sponsorships as well since that does come into play here so the advertisers ARE aware.

Build the product, they will come

 

[TheBigA]

Build the product, they will come

That may have worked in the old days, but now it costs lots of money to build the product. The money has to be there first. Commitment, partnerships, and dedication. They didn't move a baseball team or build a ball park in Washington DC until the fans plunked down money for season tickets. Show me the money, we'll build it.

 

[TonySantiago]

Yeah...I'll give that to you, especially in this economy

 

[TonySantiago]

It's a slippery slope to use clubs as a barometer of what should be played on the radio.

Hmm....tell that one to Joel Salkowitz.

During the Hot 103/97 days AS dance, the clubs were EXACTLY the barometer being used. If something was buzzing at the clubs, be sure that in due time it went on Hot 103 and 97. And maybe that's the problem right there. We're so dependent on "papers" that the actual art of going out and visualizing what the crowd is going for somehow got lost in the "shuffle".